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Hello All,
My players have just defeated Vordakai and have returned back to the centaur camp.
I ran my PCs through Dudemeister's centaur events (great stuff - loved by the players - thanx!) and after 6 months the PCs and the cenaturs had become friendly.
Upon learning about Vordakai, the PCs leader (Duchess Gwendolyn) went off on Chieftain Silverfire (the PCs were not happy about the 6 months delay in getting to Vordakai)telling her they would defeat Vordakai and rescue her daughter, but upon her return the Duchess would demand that Chieftan Silverfire bend her knee and be added to the Duchy.
Upon the PCs return Chieftain Silverfire thanked the PCs for all they did, but also said that she cannot bend her knee to the Duchess, stating that a centaur tribe has one cheiftain and the cheiftain answers to no one.
So what to do?
The PCs could just claim hexes in the centaur lands but I cannot believe that the centaurs would be fine with that.
Can the cenataurs and the PCs share the area to south of Varnhold?
If so how?
Suggestions and ideas are most welcome at this point.
Thanx!
Hawk
Claiming hexes does not neccessarilly mean developing them. When I run into this I do an iteration of my Knight's estates (see my homebrew building rules specifically the kingdombuilding bit) Essentially the land is claimed by your kingdom but trusted over to the care of a subset of people who in return provide a military of 500 for every 2 hexes or 200 for 1. This represents a fuedal land grant. Remember hexes are massive like shy of 144 sq miles massive.
If my PCs try that - I will be all over them with Centaur 'Freedom Fighters' waging a guerilla war with pseudo terrorist acts thrown in.
Charging centaurs with lances suddenly appearing as if out of no where.
Centaur archers - who can disrupt trade from a distance - they would be taking out the draft animals first, then working on the settlers/humans.
No Trade between Restov and Varnhold and the Sword Lords would be irritated that they had that going on along their borders.
Then, in the middle of all that the PCs would get the news about Tatzleford ....
Trying to dominate an unwilling people is a bad choice in my world.
@GM - what you suggest is exactly my dilema; how can the Duchess calm the centaur lands and then give the centaurs a grant for the lands that the centaurs already own? The centaurs would most like just laugh at the PCs.
@JohnB: the PCs will not go to war with the centaurs, that's not their style. The will try diplomacy and the like. What I am trying to figure is how would the centaurs react to these things. If they did try to war with the centaurs their would be serious issues with that and might go very poorly for them.
Thanx!
Hawk
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@ Hawk- to the Centaurs nothing changes, to the PCs and Brevoy the Centaurs are under the rights and protections of the PCs kingdom. In re3turn they are also obligated to contribute to the kingdom in times of trouble.
My PCs have done this 3 times, works for us, ultimately what your centaurs do is up to you.
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Personally, I would leave it alone and let the party figure out for themselves how to fix the diplomatic mess they caused. Maybe let one the PCs with knowledge nature or diplomacy figure out that the Nomen are a proud people and they need a solution that lets their leader save face and still come to an agreement.
If they ignore the issue or impose their will on the Nomen, you can always have the centaurs form hunting parties and one by one lure or drive all the "monsters" out of the mountains and into the PCs kingdom lands..
Eventually they should get the hint.
If you are trying to figure out the centaur response, the centaurs probably have their own views of ancestral lands, so they are going to feel they have the right (due to being there first) to go anywhere they please in that region. The PCs can say anything they want about this, complaint, etc and the centaurs are still going to go where they please. Think of this as someone coming up to you and saying, "Thats my air you are breathing, but I will allow you to use it, however if you do breathe it, you beome my loyal follower." Umm, yeah, sure...
If they are threatened directly, offended, attacked, or "their lands" despoiled, they are likely to directly find an answer to the problem. They are tough, proud, smart, and stubborn, but they also know they are probably outnumbered. I suggest you have them avoid direct confrontation while being as annoying as possible to the PCs until they agree to stop or apologize or whatever the centaurs want. See above for one idea.
Your party could negotiate with the Nomen and each side map out lands they felt were theirs. Then you grant each side the right of free passage. Each group obeys the laws of whoever's territory they are in, and each ruler is responsible for the actions of their own citizens and for turning over offenders to the proper authorities for native laws and punishments to be applied. Lastly, each side agrees to defend the right of the other ally to maintain their lands, in other words, come to their aid militarily if invaded.
@redcelt32
Thanks this was the persective I was looking for.
I know my players and they will not force the centaurs to join via force.
But my PCs do believe the centaurs should want to happily join the PCs kingdom and can see no reasons why they would not.
Your another persective has given me some good avenues of thought.
Thanx!
Hawk
@JohnB: the PCs will not go to war with the centaurs, that's not their style. The will try diplomacy and the like. What I am trying to figure is how would the centaurs react to these things. If they did try to war with the centaurs their would be serious issues with that and might go very poorly for them.
Hawk
Your PC [b]told[/] the centaur she would have to 'Bend the Knee' the centaur said No. That is trying to dominate the centaurs - even if it is by diplomacy rather than by force. And from what you implied, the centaurs will keep saying no.
The centaurs claim those plains as their land. Much as the party claim land for their kingdom and Brevoy classes land as its own.
In my game, the Centaurs will go to war with the party to defend their 'country', if the party try to steal (claim) Centaur land. They will take claiming any of that land as an offensive act. In exactly the same as Restov would take claiming any of their land as an offensive act. And in the same way the PCs would class anyone trying to claim part of their new kingdom as an offensive act.
And every PC party needs to learn it can't rule the whole world .... :)
If your players are Lawful Good, have them sit down with Centaurs and Varnhold leadership to set boundaries of colonization for the Kingdom. The boundaries in such case will be what both sides can live with WITHOUT the need to go to war. No one should be happy with the comprimise... which is what makes it a comprimise.
If your players are Chaotic Evil, have them apologize for the misunderstanding and present the Centaurs a generous gift -- a shipment of blankets infected with Smallpox or some other flesh eating disease (taking a piece of American History here). When they complain about dying from Smallpox, go to war with them when they are at their weakest.
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If you'll remember, in my Varnhold expansions when the Centaurs become friendly the PCs can annex the centaur territory but must promise not to develop specific hexes.
As to this specific problem: "The centaurs only have one chieftain." This is easy your Baron or Baroness needs to deliver this speech:
"I have defeated the dark god Vordekai, I ran the Kankerata's halls, I climbed Talon Peak, and defeated the monsters desecrating your dead. Who else but a chieftain could accomplish these tasks, Aecora I challenge you to the Kankerata run for chieftainhood!"
If the PC wins, then she becomes chief of the Centaurs, and you have a great game moment.
Ok I need to clarify a bit.
From the time the residents of Varnhold disappeared to the time the PCs found out the location of Vordakai's tomb was 6 months.
During this 6 months the PCS bent over backwards to befriend the centaurs and learn their ways.
As per Dudemeister's VV the PCs lived with the centaurs, ran the Kankerata, got maticore quills, climbed talon peak, saved Danide's life while on patrol (my add) and prevented the bones of their great ancestor from being stolen (I added a modified version of "To Ride The Dragon")to the list of tasks.
It was only upon being told of Vordakai was behind the events and that the centaurs knew the whole time that the Dutchess lost her temper and told Chieftain Silverfire that she would have to bend her knee upon the PCs returning with Vordakai defeated and her daughter rescued.
On the one hand the centaurs are friendly towards the PCs and respect them very much for the deeds they have done but they are a bit put off by the Duchess' bit of a temper tantrum.
And the PCs feel that they have gone above and beyond for the centaurs and are a but miffed.
My PCs are goodly, so there is no way this will resprt to war or violence.
This is what I am trying to get my hands around.
I am getting good ideas here.
Thanx!
Hawk
As to this specific problem: "The centaurs only have one chieftain." This is easy your Baron or Baroness needs to deliver this speech:
"I have defeated the dark god Vordekai, I ran the Kankerata's halls, I climbed Talon Peak, and defeated the monsters desecrating your dead. Who else but a chieftain could accomplish these tasks, Aecora I challenge you to the Kankerata run for chieftainhood!"If the PC wins, then she becomes chief of the Centaurs, and you have a great game moment.
However, if a good party tried that - I would be looking at an alignment change.
Hello All,
Can the cenataurs and the PCs share the area to south of Varnhold?
As far as I can see, the Centaurs won't be all that concerned about hills and mountains south of Varnhold. They are interested in the Dunsward - which I see as the grass lands.
However, I can't see why your characters want the hexes that side of the Tors. There is nothing of any value there - all the good stuff is on the west side of the Tors. None of those hexes are particularly good to develop.
I suspect my group will hang onto the hexes immediately next to Varnhold and the road (as a buffer zone) but concentrate on taking a road through the pass, and then building a town (with a pier) on the nearest navigable river. Instant trade route from Restov!
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There's plenty of room to grow in other directions. My players made the centaur lands hands off (including Talon Peak). The centaurs have been watching these lands for longer than mankind has been in the area, so some duchess tantrum isn't going to drive them out. Perhaps everyone needs to have a pow-wow around the fires, seek holy visions from the spirits of the land.
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As to this specific problem: "The centaurs only have one chieftain." This is easy your Baron or Baroness needs to deliver this speech:
"I have defeated the dark god Vordekai, I ran the Kankerata's halls, I climbed Talon Peak, and defeated the monsters desecrating your dead. Who else but a chieftain could accomplish these tasks, Aecora I challenge you to the Kankerata run for chieftainhood!"If the PC wins, then she becomes chief of the Centaurs, and you have a great game moment.
However, if a good party tried that - I would be looking at an alignment change.
Why?
You are following the Centaur traditions of leadership and challenge in a way to annex the Centaurs without resulting in bloodshed. Nothing evil about a fair challenge for power. It's what good kingdoms are built on. The idea behind the expansions is that the PCs WOULD earn the respect of the Centaurs. You defeated the legendary boogeyman and completed a bunch of difficult challenges to do so. When the PCs return with the head of Vordekai the Centaurs should speak in hushed whispers and bow. The PCs are Big Damn Heroes and deserve respect (tantrum or not).
As to this specific problem: "The centaurs only have one chieftain." This is easy your Baron or Baroness needs to deliver this speech:
"I have defeated the dark god Vordekai, I ran the Kankerata's halls, I climbed Talon Peak, and defeated the monsters desecrating your dead. Who else but a chieftain could accomplish these tasks, Aecora I challenge you to the Kankerata run for chieftainhood!"If the PC wins, then she becomes chief of the Centaurs, and you have a great game moment.
However, if a good party tried that - I would be looking at an alignment change.
Why?
What could be more Lawful Good than Manifest Destiny?
:P
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Hmm, I missed the whole part about "courting" the centaurs for 6 months. My PCs would be pissed off too. And more importantly, if the centaurs balked at joining after all that had been done to impress them and honor their ways, they would deserve a more stern response.
"My warriors and I have lived among your people, broken bread with you, honored your traditions, proven ourselves by your own tests of valor, and defeated enemies you were not able to overcome. We came to you with honor and respect, but instead have been dismissed as fools.
I can promise you this, I am the only leader that can save your tribe from your next great danger. As these lands grow and human settlements cover the landscape, only I will stand between greed for your lands, resources, and ancestral holy sites. Agree to serve me and all you value will be set aside and protected as sacred and honored. Ignore my request, and your pride will cost you everything you hold dear. You have until the next moon to choose your future. I will meet with you in one months time to hear your decision."
But then she is a hot headed Aldori Swordlord... :)
Hello All,
Can the cenataurs and the PCs share the area to south of Varnhold?
As far as I can see, the Centaurs won't be all that concerned about hills and mountains south of Varnhold. They are interested in the Dunsward - which I see as the grass lands.
However, I can't see why your characters want the hexes that side of the Tors. There is nothing of any value there - all the good stuff is on the west side of the Tors. None of those hexes are particularly good to develop.
I suspect my group will hang onto the hexes immediately next to Varnhold and the road (as a buffer zone) but concentrate on taking a road through the pass, and then building a town (with a pier) on the nearest navigable river. Instant trade route from Restov!
Pretty much what we did in that situation.
Left the Centaurs the grasslands and took the rest, negotiated the borders with the Centaurs and set up an agreed trade area for mutual profit.
Why are your party so determined to have the grasslands and the Centaurs anyway? You've got more than enough to do with the areas you already have, adding in a group of unwilling and unhappy subjects is just unneeded grief.
DBH
This free download might be of use for fleshing out the centaurs - it does not fit exactly, but I got some really flavorful additions to my game from it:
Dragon #349 Web Supplement - the Horde.
6 months is a really long time - and V did nothing during those months?
I don't see the centaurs bend knees or back down from these upstarts, heck, in the good ol' times they were responsible for stopping mighty Taldor expanding north.
Wasn't there mentioned/debated in another thread how many warriors they could field (100? 200?) and how they would most likely engage in hun-like skirmishing?
Ruyan.
Let the players figure it out.
They want open war > they'll get it. Hell, these guys will fight till the death (Taldor reference)
They want the land > covert war > luring dangerous animals is a good choice.
They want allies > they can get it. "We will build nothing on your lands, and we will have our allies respect your boundaries. In return, we ask that you do the same."
However, if a good party tried that - I would be looking at an alignment change.
Why?
The party are trying to impose their will on the centaurs - for the benefit of the party rather than for the benefit of the centaurs. They have failed to convince them - they have been trying for six months. so now they resort to violence and killing Centaurs leader to get their own way.
It doesn't really matter how prettily you dress it up - it is still a selfish and violent act to get their own way.
+1
Just give them one hex as far from the kingdom as possible and a casino and call it even.
History shows they'll be cool with that.
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However, if a good party tried that - I would be looking at an alignment change.
Why?
The party are trying to impose their will on the centaurs - for the benefit of the party rather than for the benefit of the centaurs. They have failed to convince them - they have been trying for six months. so now they resort to violence and killing Centaurs leader to get their own way.
It doesn't really matter how prettily you dress it up - it is still a selfish and violent act to get their own way.
Super Disagree, assuming the OP ran the Centaur expansions as written, the PCs should have well earned the trust of the centaurs. More, the PCs defeated the ancient foe of the Nomen. The Baroness is well within her rights to be frustrated with the centaurs for deliberately hiding the information that could lead to the rescue of an entire village of people, the catalyst is the Chieftans missing daughter.
This is a solution within the traditions of the tribe that will still allow the tribe to run free over the Dunsward. There's no call for alignment change here, except to further frustrate players who have done everything "right". As the leader of a burgeoning nation it would be irresponsible to allow Centaurs who have a history of warring with two-legged settlers (most recently Varnhold) to just run free without declaring fealty. They must be bound by the Barony's laws to protect the people of the Barony. The nameless farmers and townsfolk that are looking to the government to protect them.Evil would be wiping them out, or declaring war to drive them out, in this situation the Good Option is a traditional challenge or some manner of compromise the bottom line, is that it would not be reaponsible to leave an enemy at the vulnerable edge of a growing kingdom.
That really is a very good argument for Lawful Neutral :)
Oh, and satisfying an irritated Baroness who is behaving like a child and demanding that she gets her own way - or she will kill someone.
Of course, once the party leave the area, there would be a new Centaur leader rise up and the battles would start all over again :)
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Speaking metagame, GMs may not want to require this much effort to make an ally. The players have already given quite a bit of effort, Baroness' outburst nothwithstanding, and you risk discouraging your players if you make this type of negotiation too difficult.
Unless the plan was to not let the players gain the centaurs as allies or vassals, this probably should have worked. If the only issue was the colonial bullying of the centaurs, then have the centaurs do something like arrange acceptable terms in private thru a mediator and then throw a celebration for the PCs. At the end of the celebration, the centaur cheiftess offers the terms agreed upon to the PCs, all her idea of course. Players win and NPC centaurs win, and the GM makes their point about intimidation vs a stubborn NPC.
Super Disagree, assuming the OP ran the Centaur expansions as written, the PCs should have well earned the trust of the centaurs. More, the PCs defeated the ancient foe of the Nomen.
And the natural response to someone that you trust and respect is to give them all your land and stuff.
This is a solution within the traditions of the tribe that will still allow the tribe to run free over the Dunsward.
And by "Dunsward" you , of course, mean: The farms and cities of the player's kingdom.
As the leader of a burgeoning nation it would be irresponsible to allow Centaurs who have a history of warring with two-legged settlers (most recently Varnhold) to just run free without declaring fealty.
So the Centaurs should trust and respect the players so much as to give up their ancestral lands, even though the PCs don't trust them as far as they could throw them?
the Good Option is a traditional challenge or some manner of compromise the bottom line, is that it would not be reaponsible to leave an enemy at the vulnerable edge of a growing kingdom.
You call the forceful annex of indigenous peoples the "Good Option"?
The "Good Option" would be to secure a treaty with the Nomen that ensures the kingdom's safety, while respecting the Nomen's sovereignty.
Steve makes some good points here. While I recognize the behavior of the baroness as it would be typical for my gaming lot, too, I also realize that the tone and atmosphere of KM goes beyond "Kill it and take their stuff".
All these possibilities to really have the NPCs become 3D characters with their own scheming, needs and desires...
Then again the game is about having fun for all of the people at the table.
Do you know the feelings of the players behind the PCs concerning this rejection, Hawk?
Ruyan.
Hmm, I missed the whole part about "courting" the centaurs for 6 months. My PCs would be pissed off too. And more importantly, if the centaurs balked at joining after all that had been done to impress them and honor their ways, they would deserve a more stern response.
** spoiler omitted **
This is a really good response. I like it alot. I think a senior advisor to the Duchess will mention something along these lines.
Thanx!
Hawk
Why are your party so determined to have the grasslands and the Centaurs anyway? You've got more than enough to do with the areas you already have, adding in a group of unwilling and unhappy subjects is just unneeded grief.
I have added additional challanges and dimensions to the PCs kingdom. There are a couple of reasons they want to add the grasslands to their holdings.
As Restov's involvment dwindles away and the the potential for a Brevic civil war increases(in my game things between Rostland and Issia are at a sky high tension level) the PCs want to be able to defend their NE flank.
Additionally Varn was backed by an Issian Lord who sent Iborain mercenariares directly into the centaur lands from the east.
And the PCs kingdom is up to a large duchy in size. The PCs realize that Nomen centaurs have reached their breaking point and are dwindles down through was with very few males remaining. The PCs want to protect them without disrespecting them. The PCs realize that one more serious effort from Issia to smash into the Varn region very well will wipe this group out.
They don't want to build, farm or do anything to the lands. They want to preserve them in an effort to preserve the cenaurs.
Thanx!
Hawk
6 months is a really long time - and V did nothing during those months?
Oh no, he was rather busy eating brains and sucking souls. With the delay he knew everything about the PCs. He fought them with near perfect knowledge about them and their abilities.
That and he indirectly manipulated other events to make their life difficult.
Thanx!
Hawk
Super Disagree, assuming the OP ran the Centaur expansions as written, the PCs should have well earned the trust of the centaurs. More, the PCs defeated the ancient foe of the Nomen. The Baroness is well within her rights to be frustrated with the centaurs for deliberately hiding the information that could lead to the rescue of an entire village of people, the catalyst is the Chieftans missing daughter.
Yes I ran it within 90% as written and added to it. The PCs went above and beyond IMHO. But the players fell the ONLY reason that the centaurs came clean was due to the chieftain's daughter gone missing. All the PCs were annoyed. It was the Duchess who lost her temper (again rightly so in my mind) and told the centaurs how it was going to be. To me the centaurs are in the wrong here EXCEPT for the Duchess speaking to the chieftain the way she did - hence the impasse they no face.
This is a solution within the traditions of the tribe that will still allow the tribe to run free over the Dunsward. There's no call for alignment change here, except to further frustrate players who have done everything "right". As the leader of a burgeoning nation it would be irresponsible to allow Centaurs who have a history of warring with two-legged settlers (most recently Varnhold) to just run free without declaring fealty. They must be bound by the Barony's laws to protect the people of the Barony. The nameless farmers and townsfolk that are looking to the government to protect them.
Evil would be wiping them out, or declaring war to drive them out, in this situation the Good Option is a traditional challenge or some manner of compromise the bottom line, is that it would not be reaponsible to leave an enemy at the vulnerable edge of a growing kingdom.
I think a one on one race may be in order.
Thanx!
Hawk
@redcelt32: my players actually enjoy the role playing of negotiations and diplomacy. They spend as much time doing this as exploring.
@Quantum Steve: very good points for consideration
@RuyanVe: the feelings of the players is a lot of disappointment mixed a frustration and a touch of anger. They went above and beyond the call of duty to learn from the centaurs (no centaurs went to a two leg settlement). They did everything asked of them and more. They held back from heading directlty to Vordakai's tomb (they knew where it was pretty early on) out of respect to the centaurs. They truly feel the only reason the centaurs gave up the location is due to the chieftains daughter going missing.
The are rightly irritated with the centaurs, but you just can't talk to their chieftain like that.
Thanx!
Hawk
@redcelt32: my players actually enjoy the role playing of negotiations and diplomacy. They spend as much time doing this as exploring.
@Quantum Steve: very good points for consideration
@RuyanVe: the feelings of the players is a lot of disappointment mixed a frustration and a touch of anger. They went above and beyond the call of duty to learn from the centaurs (no centaurs went to a two leg settlement). They did everything asked of them and more. They held back from heading directlty to Vordakai's tomb (they knew where it was pretty early on) out of respect to the centaurs. They truly feel the only reason the centaurs gave up the location is due to the chieftains daughter going missing.
The are rightly irritated with the centaurs, but you just can't talk to their chieftain like that.
Thanx!
Hawk
This, to me, is an Excellent example of why Kingmaker can be such a strong and rewarding AP: There are many different factions out there who often see things differently than the players, have their own motivations, desires, and plans. It makes complete sense to me that the players would be aggravated, because the centaurs didn't react in a scripted fashion, and that is what makes this so wonderful - The players have to think, and make hard choices. Personally I wouldn't ding them, or force an alignment change, I'd look to find a way to lead the players to a compromise (perhaps some skilled diplomacy or knowledge history/local to determine a better way to interact with the centaurs) and let the players have the centaurs as allies in some fashion. Might even do something like once the centaurs are allied, they open as a playable character race.
Much of the time with politics, things don't work out the way you anticipate or desire, unless you are very skilled at the Game of Thrones. And honestly if they went that route (murderous coup) I'd not penalize them for it. If they did it often, then there might be a case for some alignment shifting to happen.
I'm agreeing with Redcelt. I can't see why the centaurs would have delayed saying anything for six months, but what's done is done.
As it stands, challenging for leadership of the tribe sounds like the best option.
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It is the centaur tribe's fault obviously, since they have no flag. :P
No Flag, no Country!
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@Quantum Steve: That ignores that this is a game, and the players fulfilled their objectives. The respect and fealty of the Nomen was a reward (just as walking into a den of goblins and committing a minor act of genocide and theft rewards the players with loot and xp). Now I'm not here to defend colonialism and imperialism (that's a different thread and in the real world morality is trickier). But in this game, from the perspective of the PCs the Nomen are dangerous, they were at war with Varn for over a year before the vanishing. They deliberately hid the whereabouts of a village of innocent people. The nomen aren't innocent bystanders, they are a tribe of violent amazons. The PCs need to protect their kingdom, and they did that through a long process of diplomacy and cultural understanding. The PCs felt betrayed by the Centaurs, and even a Good character can lose their temper without losing their alignment. Alignment is a guide, not a straight jacket.
While I was reading this thread I was thinking all the time that if they used the VV Nomen expansion then they are effectively part of the tribe, but understandably the centaurs are pretty set in their way. The Chieftain can't bend the knee, "There is only one Chieftain", by tribal law no matter the Chieftain's personal opinion on them. Rulership makes people stubborn as they have to worry about their lands and people, but if the PCs use the tribal laws to become the rightful rulers of the tribe then the integration into their kingdom will be nearly seamless.
In short I agree with Dudemeister, a challenge of rulership! If the PCs don't think about it then you could always have a close Nomen ally suggest it to them after their return.
@Dudemeister
You seem to be of the school that the PCs are the stars of the show and should always get every little thing they want. They'll have to work for it, but they should eventually get it.
The thing is, it's not just a game, it's also a living world, which is one of the things that make tabletop RPGs more interesting than video games. Not every goblin exists to give the players XP, not every NPC exists to hand out quests and loot, and sometimes NPCs who aren't villains will actually disagree with the PCs.
In my opinion, if the players treat the Centaurs like savages that need to be subjugated, then they'll get savages. If they treat them like potential allies, then they'll get that.
I also don't like the idea of "I challenge you for leadership, OK I won now I'm going away to rule the people I actually give a crap about (by the way Centaurs, it's not you.)"
On the other hand, if a PC were to actually agree to give up adventuring to be a full-time chieftain, I could see getting behind that.
@QuantumSteve
The PCs should be the stars of the show, but they should not get everything they want.
I agree 100% with your living world comments. That's how I try to run things.
The PCs have taken no actions to try and subjugate the centaurs. The Duchess utter a sentance in anger stated that she would, nothing more.
I don't see the relationship falling apart because of this. The ball is clearly in the PCs court and they will have to play well here.
I think the leadership challange is a great idea provided your last sentance holds true.
That is a brilliant point!
There are no part time chieftains in the centaur tribes.
Oh the possibilities of a PC defeating the chieftain and then being told that they will be with the tribe 24/7
Brilliant!
Thanx!
Hawk
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@Quantum Steve:
I think that players should get what they earn. The PCs are the star of the show. The living world is entirely imaginary and reacts the way a GM decides. That it's no fun to kowtow to NPCs when you're RPing the ruler of a nation. The PCs were peaceful, culturally understanding and achieved all the goals. One word said in anger does not make months of work fall apart.
That the centaurs aren't innocent. That ruling as Baroness/Duchess and Chief at the same time will be tricky. The game already has rules for that (Unrest). This isn't "Please the Centaurs" RPG, it's Kingmaker. Kings and Queens have to make tough decisions. The Baroness hasn't broken any alignment rules. Plus imagine this:
"As Chief and Baroness we are now of one tribe. The people of the Kingdom and the Nomen are bound by honor. The centaur lands range from Dunsward to Narlmarches, your people will fight for us as we will fight for you.
I can not stay here with you, but your High Priestess speaks for me when I am not here, do not fear change, because as the moon waxes and wanes our tribe waxes with this alliance!"
Boom. PCs annex the Centaurs, Nomen maintain their freedom but with fealty to the Kingdom and nobody changes alignment.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The alignment debate is bogging down the conversation with the typical alignment debate stupidity. Any chance we can just drop that crap and let it settle to the bottom where it belongs? Don't get me wrong; I think that you're extremely clever for finding a way to torpedo an awesome suggestion with lots of rp potential because you have a narrow and oppressive view of alignment, but I'd rather hear more awesome suggestions with lots of rp potential and worry about the alignment crap at my own table.
Great stuff Dudemeister!
Depending on how well the PCs handle the next interaction with the centaurs I could see your words being uttered.
Great input by all.
Thanx!
Hawk
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Said from really good things.
+1
"As Chief and Baroness we are now of one tribe. The people of the Kingdom and the Nomen are bound by honor. The centaur lands range from Dunsward to Narlmarches, your people will fight for us as we will fight for you.
I can not stay here with you, but your High Priestess speaks for me when I am not here, do not fear change, because as the moon waxes and wanes our tribe waxes with this alliance!"Boom. PCs annex the Centaurs, Nomen maintain their freedom but with fealty to the Kingdom and nobody changes alignment.
See. That's exactly the No. 1 thing I'm against. Let the PCs have all the privileges of being chieftain, with zero responsibility. As an excuse to give the PCs the things they want that's pretty flimsy. Especially since giving up their lands to the PCs is completely out of character with the Nomen. The just got finished fighting a war for their land against the PCs allies.
The Concluding the Adventure section of the magazine already suggests the perfect solution that doesn't shatter the verisimilitude of the game world.
What the PCs earned for all trouble was peace with a rival tribe. That's the happy ending.
What do the PCs want from annexation, other than guilt free Manifest Destiny, that they don't get from a treaty?