|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Centaur warriors to defend the kingdom from the TWO evil kingdoms to the East is what they have to gain. Nomen culture spreading throughout the kingdom while also kingdom culture changes the dying society of centaurs to not be so xenophobic.
Varn's war with the Centaurs was because he came in trying to subjugate the Nomen. The PCs succeed because they try and befriend the Centaurs. Also the PCs DO take responsibility. Check out those Kingdom building rules those Hexes Cost that's the PCs paying for the upkeep of the Centaurs. Even in my expansions some areas were forbidden to PC development.
Now, again a reminder: this is Kingmaker. That means the PCs are in charge. A good PC isn't responsible for the lives of just themselves, they are responsible for creating a lasting peace that will outlive them. Would you leave the Lizardfolk who kidnapped children unconquered? The kobolds? The mites?
Yes this might mean the end of Nomen culture as its known. The tribe is dying, joining the PCs kingdom means a peace that lasts longer than one generation that owe one favour.
Also, this is an adventure game. A responsible Baroness wouldn't be traipsing through the countryside fighting monsters since that risks the succession and continuity of a kingdom. Verisimilitude is such a subjective line, but in my books the world is full of enemies for the PCs, letting them be badass occasionally makes them happy and is fun. Saying: "Become chieftain and retire the character you enjoy." Opposite of fun.
Why couldn't the Nomen still help defend their allies? Why do they have to be subjugated? Cause that's what the PCs are doing by making the Nomen swear fealty, making them the kingdom's "subjects".
Why should it not only be OK, but also encouraged for the PCs to destroy the Nomen's culture and heritage by integrating them into the kingdom? Wouldn't the "good" course of action be to help rejuvenate the dying tribe? Furthermore, why should the Nomen jump at the chance to have their entire way of life changed forever?
If you think as the Nomen Tribe as nothing more than a challenge for the PCs to overcome and a spoil to be won, then what you're saying makes sense, but it also makes for a pretty flat game world. One where nothing ever happens that isn't for the PCs benefit. Where NPCs only exist to interact with the PCs and when the PCs leave a village it's inhabitants might as well cease to exist since they are of no further use to the PCs.
When you give the NPCs motivations and needs and hopes and dreams that are independent of the PCs is when these NPCs most resemble real people and not just stats on a page.
The Nomen Centaurs shouldn't do anything just because the PCs want them to, they should do what they want to do, otherwise they're just sacks of XP and loot.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
+1
Also: What would bring most fun to your table? :)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In our own game, I would lean towards handwaving the Nomen into becoming part of the kingdom.
The points that some folks have brought up on this thread are very true, however this event takes place about the point in the AP that I as a GM want the PCs focused on a macro level rather than micro. I want them thinking about troop movements, trade routes, high level political maneuvering, and not about whether this noble was offended at your manners during a feast.
There are lots of times you will get to drill down to details in Pathfinder, but fewer you get to focus on things like feeding a kingdom, worrying about a disease outbreak, or planning an invasion of another kingdom.
I want to handle making kingdom alliances that are less critical with a dice roll and a selected gift passed along through a NPC diplomat.
Primarily, this is because focusing on a macro level is rarely something that takes place during the regular gaming adventurers. It is sort of unique to this AP and I feel I need to encourage and re-focus events and rewards in that direction to sort of guide the players into that mode of thinking. I can certainly see how these choices would be out of the question for a more micro focused game however, since it would basically be handing stuff over to the players for a few dice rolls and a quest or two, rather than requiring inspiring roleplay.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm tired of arguing over the internet. We have a difference of play styles. I accept that.
Well done sir.
Again thanks to all. I will let you know how it turns out.
Thanx!
Hawk
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A bunch of stuff...
Dudemeister may be done, but I think you are missing quite a few points. Even if your play style is different and has nothing to do with giving the PCs all the cards you have to look at it from the point of view of the NPCs that you are basically going on about.
Nomen are a dying tribe, and they are likely aware of this, but they are prideful. The Chieftain is likely the most aware of this fact as any good leader are aware of the plights of their people. Using the Expansion the PCs have completed ever trial, learned about the tribe, and while not centaurs have earned their respect and basically been accepted into the tribe.
Now they go and kill the great Nomen BBEG... they will be legends within the tribe for ages to come, and they are larger then life heroes of the tribe now. Why wouldn't the Nomen want to follow them when they speak of the future? One of them has challenged the Chieftain for the right to rule, and won. They live with their human tribe, but the Chieftain is not always present with the tribe.
If you want life then search their maybe several of them opposed to these human upstarts, and this distant rule. There are always people like that, but the majority of these live-breathing NPCs respect and honor these Nomen heroes and would follow them to war now. They have legitimately earned the right to rule the Nomen by tribal law! They are likely not the first Chieftain with strange ways but their culture will still be respected.
This has nothing with making the Nomen tribe into a reward for the PCs, but making them into real people that have befriended these outsiders, who they watched them struggle to understand them and become part of their tribe (and likely the first humans to bother), and then defeat the ancient enemy of the tribe that no one has ever done, and come to rule the tribe (since they are tribe members) by tribal law... why would they NOT want to follow them?
There is absolutely no reason to suspect or distrust these heroes anymore of destroying their culture or taking their ancestral lands from them.
While I can see merits on both sides of the subjugate the Nomen vs form a treaty with them, I personally fall more on the side of the forming a treaty and keeping them an allies rather than subjects.
The reason for this being that it provides a better roleplaying opportunity later, where the PC's are in the position that they must ASK the Nomen for aid rather than simply demanding/expecting it.
It moves the Nomen from being a side note in the history of the campaign to an ongoing and more dynamic relationship. Your players have invested a lot of time in these people and if they have been enjoying themselves thus far, it would behoove you to find ways to make them and interesting part of your campaign's future.
If you really want them to become a part of the Kingdom you can always have some disaster befall them that forces them to migrate to the kingdom as refugees. Their story doesn't have to end here, take the long view and the possibilities are endless!
Just my two copper pieces.
While I can see merits on both sides of the subjugate the Nomen vs form a treaty with them, I personally fall more on the side of the forming a treaty and keeping them an allies rather than subjects.
The reason for this being that it provides a better roleplaying opportunity later, where the PC's are in the position that they must ASK the Nomen for aid rather than simply demanding/expecting it.
It moves the Nomen from being a side note in the history of the campaign to an ongoing and more dynamic relationship. Your players have invested a lot of time in these people and if they have been enjoying themselves thus far, it would behoove you to find ways to make them and interesting part of your campaign's future.
If you really want them to become a part of the Kingdom you can always have some disaster befall them that forces them to migrate to the kingdom as refugees. Their story doesn't have to end here, take the long view and the possibilities are endless!
Just my two copper pieces.
Very good points Addax. Couldn't have said it better myself!
HEY, MOGG HEARD THERE WAS FLAME WAR HERE... BRING TORCHES, THERE NO FLAMES JUST PEOPLE DISAGREE. MOGG ANGRY.
You called...?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here is the update.
The PCs came to the centaurs with a final proposal. The Duchess let Chieftain Silverfire put out her propsal first. After the Chieftain finished the Duchess pretty much told the Chieftain how it was going to be. The Chieftain did not appreciate being dicatated to. However the she also knew she was bargaining from a disadvatage. Like it or not the she had to respect the fact that the PCs were a group who did take out Vordakai. something the centaurs could not do.
Additionaly her tribe champion Danide (who was the biggest critic of the PCs initially) had told the Chieftain that taking up arms against the Duchess would be akin to destroying the tribe, and she would challange for the leadership of the tribe before sending her warriors to their death needlessly. The PCs off course did not know this part.
To the PCs credit they gave the centaurs about 75% of what they wanted.
The centaurs got 10 hexes of terrain to keep and do what they wanted with. The centaurs also retained control of their burial ground and the linnorm holy site.
What the centaurs also wanted but did not get was Talon Peak (which was now seperated from the centaur lands by the PCs lands), but the PCs did promise to not develop the hex and assured the centaurs can pass through the PCs land to visit Talon Peak. The other thing the centaurs lost was the Valley Of Death and Vordakai's tomb. The PCs did ask the centaurs to keep watch over the Valley fo The Dead as they have done for ages and the PCs have pledged to remove the evil taint for Vordakai's island.
Both sides agreed that each other's citizens may travel through iether lands without issue provided that the laws of the local land were obeyed.
The PCs also stated they would defend the centaurs from outside threats without demanding the same from the centaurs(I found this most curious)
In the end neither side got everything they wanted, but both sides were able to save face and look strong to their respective people.
I think it worked out as well as could be expected.
Thanx!
Hawk
Thanks for the update!
Not to start the whole discussion again, but letting go of the hex containing Vordakai's tomb and the Valley of the Dead would've been a no-go in my game (from the centaurs' side).
What evil taint has to be removed after having killed Vordakai?
If it worked out for you and your group it sounds like a good compromise.
Ruyan.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for the update!
Not to start the whole discussion again, but letting go of the hex containing Vordakai's tomb and the Valley of the Dead would've been a no-go in my game (from the centaurs' side).
What evil taint has to be removed after having killed Vordakai?If it worked out for you and your group it sounds like a good compromise.
Ruyan.
Your welcome.
I felt that the centaurs would be ok with the PCs having the Valley of the Dead and Vordakai's tomb, seeing that the PCs defeated Vordakai and that it is taboo for the centaurs to even enter the Valley of the Dead.
The PCs have asked the centaurs to maintain the traditional watch over the area and the PCs have agrees that neither hex will be settled or developed.
As for evil taint:
the feasthall needs to be cleaned up, the daemon shrine needs to go and I believe their are links to Abbadon and Charon present. The PCs want to make these things go away.
I am not going to tell them no if they want to send a troop of clerics and spend BPs to neutralize the site.
Thanx!
Hawk
Looks like you had some great roleplaying experience, so HUZZAH!!! from me and my group(s).
also: Let them use whatever they want/can spare/propose to do.
My party has found an old Paladin of Gorum, who
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@rickmeister - thanks for the Huzzah
@dudemeister - thanks for your addtional creations - my players loved them
Thanx!
Hawk
Upon the PCs return Chieftain Silverfire thanked the PCs for all they did, but also said that she cannot bend her knee to the Duchess, stating that a centaur tribe has one cheiftain and the cheiftain answers to no one.
So what to do?
A strange question. What a king does when his demands are rejected? Correct, uses the final argument of kings. Chieftain Silverfire clearly lacks both intelligence (she tries to oppose the slayers of Vordakai, against whom Nomen were all but helpless, and who therefore probably can easily crush her entire tribe) and virtue (she refuses to repay a great favor done both to her tribe and to herself) to lead Nomen, so she must be deposed. Smart PCs will probably bring this fact to attention of the tribe, rather than blasting her on the spot, though. If that fails, well, gratuitious violence IS the standard solution in DnD, and Nomen ARE weak, compared to stuff PCs just have dealt with, and a real ruler won't take his words back easily.