Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to propose that before Goblinworks begins adding lists of spells to the game that they work out a modular spell research system. This system would then be used by GW to create the spells the game starts with and ones added in the future. This would provide a way for player-built spells to be developed which are balanced with the ones that already exist within the game. Time and again when RPGs have tried to add in a spell builder after spell lists are already established, there are gaps in which the core spells of the game do not add up in the system. By putting the builder first they make sure that all spells add up, and that player-driven expansion of the magical libraries is possible. Does this mean that some beloved tabletop-game spells are at a different 'level' in PFO? Probably, but we're already far afield from trying to copy it in detail, we're just emulating it in feel.
As inspiration, the team can reverse-engineer some iconic spells from the Pathfinder RPG, as well as the Metamagic feats found there and the Words of power system from Ultimate Magic. I would also recommend they check out DarkLightHitomi's post on the topic, and if others have relevant systems to suggest for consideration, post them here!
Some preliminary ideas:
Whether it's spell slots, mana, stamina, refresh time, or whatever, each spell would of course have a casting cost of some sort. Some elements of the spell's design have no effect on that, some increase it, and some reduce the cost. The total cost of a spell determines which spellcasters can handle it depending on the badges they have earned in the spellcraft skill(s) they have, such as wizardry, sorcery, theurgy (clerics, paladins), druidry (druids, rangers), and so on.
Elements which do not affect casting cost:
Name (unique, can be rated/flagged)
Description/Flavour Text (can be rated/flagged)
School & Subschool (Conjuration, Evocation, Necromancy, etc.)
Descriptors (fire, earth, mind-affecting, etc.)
Elements which increase casting cost:
Range (self, short, medium, long)
Target (self, other, area)
Duration (instant, X round/minute/hour per level, other)
Effect (these will vary a lot and will be the primary cost of the spell)
Elements which reduce casting cost:
Casting Time (immediate, swift, standard, full-round, multi-round)
Somatic Component {no/yes)
Verbal Component (no, yes, yes with specific language needed)
Material Component (none, non-expended focus, cheap, expensive, rare)
To-Hit (none, ranged touch, touch)
Save (none, half, negates)
Magic Resistance (no/yes)
Other elements are possible, such as a spell limitation that not only requires a sapient target (mind-affecting), but one that is only able to affect elves, humans, or half-elves, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to propose that before Goblinworks begins adding lists of spells to the game that they work out a modular spell research system. (more great stuff)
I love this idea! As I almost always play arcane spell casters (95% of whom are Wizards) one of the things I love to do is work with my GM at creating my own spells for use in our PnP campaigns. They range from changes of flavor/elemental type of known spells (Gloreindl's Hoarfrost Ball, being a cold fireball spell that has a blue flame) to new spells (Gloreindl's Flying Daggers, being a new spell third level that creates daggers of force that fly at the target(s) with three initial daggers and adding one for every three levels above fifth, but which use Touch AC and doing dagger-like damage +1 for every three levels starting at level five up to a max of +5).
The party assisted me in finding rare components and helped test the spells out in combat situations for those that were combat oriented, or in other settings if the spell was more non-combat oriented (buff spells, flavor spells).
Some spells won't fit MMO's, but given this is a sandbox MMO, I really see potential for player made spells, especially as it would be in keeping with lore. Who hasn't had an adventure where a wizard hires the party to get a rival's spell book and notes so he/she can get a hold of a unique spell? Hell, as a player I have done this, and also as a player who creates spells, I have had NPC's try and get my spell books.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's a sort of crossover between an adventuring class and a crafting profession. We could craft creative spells and then sell scrolls of them, or even put together compendiums of customized spells into spellbooks.
With the material component aspect, there's also room for a harvesting profession our colleague Xenos Braum refers to as being an "arcanifex" - one who can render components from the bodies of magical creatures.
For example, a basic fireball spell takes a bit of bat guano and sulphur, but perhaps if you instead use an ice mephit scale, you could switch it to your cold damage version?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This sounds fun enough that I would role up a wizard just to try out a system like this.
The only question it raises is what would the requirements be in order to R&D a customized spell? I'd say paid membership to a NPC Wizard's Guild with added costs for research time and materials is a pretty reasonable starting point (This is me taking a big page from 'Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall' and its custom spell maker). The more elaborate the spell the more expensive and time consuming the development time is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's a very cool idea, but I am leary of the devs spending the necessary resources to implement an entire spell creation system that is only really usable by Wizards only - 1/5th of the spell casting classes. Sorcs and Bards don't really have the spells known to be able to use the system, and Clerics and Druids know all thier possible spells automatically.
It's also just a matter of time before each spell level has been min/maxed to the best possible mix of damage and everyone's "individual" spell is the same spell with the possible exception of damage type.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I honestly don't see this system, as much as I am in favor of it, as being a top priority, thus not likely to even make it into EE, or even early in the OE. An IC reason for this could simply be that Devs let it be known that you need a certain amount of skill points in something like Spellcraft (possibly a merit badge) before you can research new spells, so someone without the proper skill can't do it. This gives them time to implement it before it is likely that anyone has trained up that skill tree enough OOC. Given Ryan's post that he thinks it could take 2 or even more years to get a really high "level" PC, it allows the Wizard's guild (as The Pseudonym phrased it) not allowing researchers to use the facilities until they are skilled enough to not be 100% likely to blow up their labs.
I'd say paid membership to a NPC Wizard's Guild with added costs for research time and materials is a pretty reasonable starting point The more elaborate the spell the more expensive and time consuming the development time is.
Making it more difficult to access a feature like this is not the way to go. This is a great idea and deserves to stand on it's own as a skill based concept. If you are an outcast wizard why should you have to bendover/pay a guild for the privilege? Couldn't/Shouldn't/Wouldn't you just do it on your own? In terms of realism, who's to stop you?
As for cost, you are right on. Cost should reflect all that. And if you need to add restrictions, make it skill based. Like skills in Knowledge (arcana)(religion)(etc).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd say paid membership to a NPC Wizard's Guild with added costs for research time and materials is a pretty reasonable starting point The more elaborate the spell the more expensive and time consuming the development time is.Making it more difficult to access a feature like this is not the way to go. This is a great idea and deserves to stand on it's own as a skill based concept. If you are an outcast wizard why should you have to bendover/pay a guild for the privilege? Couldn't/Shouldn't/Wouldn't you just do it on your own? In terms of realism, who's to stop you?
As for cost, you are right on. Cost should reflect all that. And if you need to add restrictions, make it skill based. Like skills in Knowledge (arcana)(religion)(etc).
You do have a point. But what I'm thinking is when it comes down to it, more often then not, unique home brewed spells are often attributed to higher ranking users in most professionally published settings.
The only reason I added the scenario of the Wizard's Guild gate was to add a sense of in game skill accomplishment and part entitlement of sticking with the wizarding career. In a table top game it's reasonable to have players make spells left and right because they're the stars, but when you start throwing in thousands of players making spells you run the risk of two things in my mind.
1) You belittle the idea of crafting unique spells with a custom name. There's only so many times you can rename the same spin on a Ice-Fireball spell if 8 other Joe Hedge-Wizards already came up with the same idea prior to you.
2) The possibility of cluttering the game with unique spells that could possibly clog or bug out the system.
Whether it's skill, money, or NPC affiliation (or all the above), there needs to be something in place to make it an accomplishment for a player to leave an impact on the game, let alone the possible repercussions that can be had on an economic level if you are to include the trading or selling of unique spells (which is a whole other discussion I feel).
The only thing I see that might be a problem is spell balance, the process spells go through to ensure they don't unbalance the class/level. I'm not sure of the process that spells go through but considering the number of spells people would be creating, it might take a full time position just to go through the spells and make sure they aren't too powerful, or too weak for their level.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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While I doubt there will be a system that you can create custom crafted spells (although it would be cool) I would like to put in consideration for higher level spells instead of them just being unlocked for everyone actually take people to research them and start spreading them out through the community.
Additionally, making custom spell books (as has already been discussed by the devs) where you can apply met-magic to spells and the like in the book possibly?
Finally, along the lines of spell research is maybe making group spell casting have some sort of benefits. For instance, you could have group rituals that either enhance the spell or are even a requirement for certain types of spells.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's a very cool idea, but I am leary of the devs spending the necessary resources to implement an entire spell creation system that is only really usable by Wizards only - 1/5th of the spell casting classes. Sorcs and Bards don't really have the spells known to be able to use the system, and Clerics and Druids know all thier possible spells automatically.
It's also just a matter of time before each spell level has been min/maxed to the best possible mix of damage and everyone's "individual" spell is the same spell with the possible exception of damage type.
I'm suggesting that the system be created as a design tool for the devs first off. If the research system exists from the beginning, they would then use it themselves to create the initial spell list. If a bunch of spells are added first, then those would have to be reverse-engineered (which never comes out quite right) in order to make a research system later.
Users of sorcery, theurgy, and druidry could research new spells too. Nothing says that PFO will necessarily give the divine casters every spell in the game up front; maybe they need to learn the proper prayers from celestials/fiends or the proper chants from nature spirits that can only be summoned by speakers of Druidic.
As player-created spells become available, there would not necessarily be a 'best' version of any particular effect. Maybe versions of fireball and [i]flame strike[/] could be made which do cold damage, but if they becomes popular enough for many to start wearing cold-resist gear, casters would switch back to the standard versions. If a corner case is found where some effect isn't expensive enough or some component gives too great of a casting cost discount, then those parameters could be adjusted and would fix every spell which uses them, so individually tweaking every spell would not be necessary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I doubt there will be a system that you can create custom crafted spells (although it would be cool) I would like to put in consideration for higher level spells instead of them just being unlocked for everyone actually take people to research them and start spreading them out through the community.
Additionally, making custom spell books (as has already been discussed by the devs) where you can apply met-magic to spells and the like in the book possibly?
Finally, along the lines of spell research is maybe making group spell casting have some sort of benefits. For instance, you could have group rituals that either enhance the spell or are even a requirement for certain types of spells.
They only really have to release spells a bit before those who exclusively train spellcasting would reach them. It could even be possible to start with just enough to give sorcerers spells to fill slots with and let the rest be developed via player research. If you have items like 'elemental damage: fire' and 'area: 20' radius' then someone will build a fireball whether GW puts it in the game themselves or not.
I'm not sure what you're saying with the book+metamagic thing. With a good spell research system, metamagic may not even be necessary, since that's a kludge way of editing spell parameters which could be edited more cleanly with a research system.
Group spell casting could be a way to cast things that individual casters of a given power level could not yet handle, and could fit in with the eventual formation tactics. My favourite 2nd Edition AD&D campaign, Birthright had group-cast spells like that, and like PFO it was a domain/territory control game as well as an adventure RPG.
I'd like to propose that before Goblinworks begins adding lists of spells to the game that they work out a modular spell research system. This system would then be used by GW to create the spells the game starts with and ones added in the future. This would provide a way for player-built spells to be developed which are balanced with the ones that already exist within the game. Time and again when RPGs have tried to add in a spell builder after spell lists are already established, there are gaps in which the core spells of the game do not add up in the system. By putting the builder first they make sure that all spells add up, and that player-driven expansion of the magical libraries is possible. Does this mean that some beloved tabletop-game spells are at a different 'level' in PFO? Probably, but we're already far afield from trying to copy it in detail, we're just emulating it in feel.
As inspiration, the team can reverse-engineer some iconic spells from the Pathfinder RPG, as well as the Metamagic feats found there and the Words of power system from Ultimate Magic. I would also recommend they check out DarkLightHitomi's post on the topic, and if others have relevant systems to suggest for consideration, post them here!
Some preliminary ideas:
Whether it's spell slots, mana, stamina, refresh time, or whatever, each spell would of course have a casting cost of some sort. Some elements of the spell's design have no effect on that, some increase it, and some reduce the cost. The total cost of a spell determines which spellcasters can handle it depending on the badges they have earned in the spellcraft skill(s) they have, such as wizardry, sorcery, theurgy (clerics, paladins), druidry (druids, rangers), and so on.
Elements which do not affect casting cost:
Name (unique, can be rated/flagged)
Description/Flavour Text (can be rated/flagged)
School & Subschool (Conjuration, Evocation, Necromancy,...
no player made spells please. only use what is available in the books written by Paizo. casters will already be able to far out damage any non caster as it is, no sense making them even better with the ability to design their own spells that can cause HUGE balance issues.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess having the standard spells but beeing able to "tune" them by doing research would be interesting....
I agree.
Maybe just have some energy substitution (like changing a fireball into a snowball) and other similar modifications as a research implemented feature, would provide a flavour of spell developping without being too dificult to implement and/or a risk for the balance of the gameplay.
People could just research it for themselves or choose to share it with other mages. A mechanism that allow wizards to share the spells they know with other ones would be a nice thing to do as well. So friendly wizards could exchange the spells they know, problably with certain limitations for the sake of gameplay balance.
Maybe bards could be allowed to research new "songs" (basically spells with another flavour) as well using a similar mechanism.
<<edit>>
I forgot to say that I believe this kind of research mechanism (if implemented) may be something that could be developped and made available latelly in the game, as it would need a certain level o char developpment to have acess to the skills that allow players to do that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Recommend that GW use this sort of system to pregenerate all spells up to the top level available in Pathfinder, but since we have no level cap then have some system like this in place by then to permitfull-fledge spellcrafting beyond the limitations of what is already complete and standard. Further recommend a variant system should be available for top-end sorcs to potentially expand their repertoire.
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Goblin Squad Member
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no player made spells please. only use what is available in the books written by Paizo. casters will already be able to far out damage any non caster as it is, no sense making them even better with the ability to design their own spells that can cause HUGE balance issues.
I guess we'll mark you down as having no confidence in GW's game-balancing abilities, then?
Also, I'm not sure why you quoted so much of my post just to threadcrap.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well usely if you have a spell doing X damage, spell research would make able to change the properties not make it lvl 1 spell doing 1000x damage.
Exactly, so if you just change a property of the spell without changing its power, such as changing a cone of cold into a cone of acid, or something like that, it would end in a spell of the same level. However, if you increase range, duration, inflicted damage etc it would increase the spell level.
But I still think that it would require an original spell to modify. Building a spell from scratch may not be possible without risking unbalancing the gameplay.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well usely if you have a spell doing X damage, spell research would make able to change the properties not make it lvl 1 spell doing 1000x damage.
Right, it would be more like changing burning hands to ice blast; still the same range and damage, just cold instead of fire. Changing it to do more damage would mean it takes more skill to cast and more casting resources (higher slot, more mana, expensive component, etc.). It's really no different than getting a custom weapon or armour made that has properties more suited to your combat style.
But I still think that it would require an original spell to modify. Building a spell from scratch may not be possible without risking unbalancing the gameplay.
That's the 'effect' type and those would of course be the core of the spells. Cone of cold has a simple effect of 'energy damage' set to cold, and an area set to a cone. Perhaps instead of switching the element type, the area could changed to a radius. The size of the radius would still cover the same overall area, just in a different shape.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not too worries about the damage spells, think utility spells will be harder. Imagine a charm person spell variant working on low levels but extended time period, who want to be someones bixxh...I mean friend for a week ;)
Super-charms like dominate person already exist, but I doubt any spell in PFO would last for a week. Someone could just log off to break a charm if it was going to last longer than the connection timeout period.
Endure elements lasts 24 hours (or 6 real-time hours in PFO), but all it does is keep you from taking environmental damage like frostbite and heatstroke. You could double, triple, etc. the duration on that and practically no one would care.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess having the standard spells but beeing able to "tune" them by doing research would be interesting....I agree.
Maybe just have some energy substitution (like changing a fireball into a snowball) and other similar modifications as a research implemented feature, would provide a flavour of spell developping without being too dificult to implement and/or a risk for the balance of the gameplay.
People could just research it for themselves or choose to share it with other mages. A mechanism that allow wizards to share the spells they know with other ones would be a nice thing to do as well. So friendly wizards could exchange the spells they know, problably with certain limitations for the sake of gameplay balance.
Maybe bards could be allowed to research new "songs" (basically spells with another flavour) as well using a similar mechanism.
<<edit>>
I forgot to say that I believe this kind of research mechanism (if implemented) may be something that could be developped and made available latelly in the game, as it would need a certain level o char developpment to have acess to the skills that allow players to do that.
Since Ryan has said GW does plan to include, after OE, concepts from the other PFRPG books, they may have plans for this at some point. The Advanced Players Guide has the Admixture sub-school for the Evocation School that allows the mixing of energy types, so it isn't out of the question. As someone who, in PnP games has changed some spells so as to be more effective against certain creature type (on campaign was set in a hot equatorial environment, so I researched making some fire/heat spells into cold versions, which helped against things like Salamanders and Fire Elementals we ran into as we leveled up).
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Since Ryan has said GW does plan to include, after OE, concepts from the other PFRPG books, they may have plans for this at some point. The Advanced Players Guide has the Admixture sub-school for the Evocation School that allows the mixing of energy types, so it isn't out of the question. As someone who, in PnP games has changed some spells so as to be more effective against certain creature type (on campaign was set in a hot equatorial environment, so I researched making some fire/heat spells into cold versions, which helped against things like Salamanders and Fire Elementals we ran into as we leveled up).
More than just changing elements, Ultimate Magic has a 'Words of Power' system that is a pretty flexible spell-editing system.
What I'm advocating, however, is that GW create a spell construction tool first and then use that to build the spells.
Even if spell-research only happens months or years later, having spells built in a consistent way like that makes it possible to balance player research with the existing developer-built spells. The problem that often crops up in other spell-research systems is that they're built as a kludge on top of an existing spell list. Trying to reverse-engineer the existing spells leaves the system with weird gaps and loopholes. If you instead build the system first and use it to create the spell list, then the spells will necessarily fit the system that produced them, whether a dev made them or some future player did.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar Completely agree that would be the optimal way to build the spells by developing a detailed spell building system rather than just hard coding spell information. The concern is it would require quite a bit more work.
More work if the spell system is to remain static.
If the system is to grow (alluding to no level cap), then providing a way for it to grow beyond the current spell list might save work in the long run.
@Keo, yes. And it does tie into some of the discussion on the crafting boards about making special items.
@LordD, yes, and yes.
The shape of the spell could also be changed (touch, ray, cone, circle, wall, etc.) This could address friendly fire issues somewhat (If FF is in the game) - Can't use my acid blast but I can use my acid ray.
Naming would keep the original spell name, just changing/adding a standardized descriptor. (to avoid spell name confusion) Or the spell could be reviewed by GW before inclusion.
@Nihimon Hopefully you wouldn't have to build spells (Never played Rhyzom) the core spells would always exist. If someone wanted to research/craft a special spell it would take time, possibly even be a special skill set (research, knowledge) like Gloreindl suggested.
Some spells might even require additional "levels" to cast, opening up some higher level spells to replace some we may lose like wish. For example a web of cold might be 6th "level" spell (3 "levels" to cast web, 3 "levels to cast cone of cold, Damge as per web and cone of cold at lvl 3 (not 6) and the aoe would be the area of a web, not as a cone (or vice-versa -though that might be called Cone of Coldweb)) This could also limit the extent of spells that could be modified - if 20 is the cap then the max of 2 5th "level" spells could be used or 1 8th and 1 1st, so yes, you could get a magic missile of death but it would be a singular missile that did 1-4+1 pts of damage if the victim saved. But you couldn't get a polar ray of death.
Allows for more specialization - an elemental mage that specialised in cold, or acid,and could maybe get +1 bonus when using spells of the type he/she specialised in or a necromancer that didn't need to rely on summoning undead. A trap setting theif that snuck around to the back of defensive lines and laid traps for retreating chars or incoming reinforcements. A mystic theurge with wind wall of contagion.
Bards could make different songs. Clerics/druids might be able to ask for spirit hammers/Cudgels of frost. Perhaps traps could even be set with special FX for those who say combined mage with theif (fireball trap)And if you just left a trap around randomly, woe to your alignment especially if it ever murdered someone.
Spell effects might be a pain for the techs tho. And if spell components are required to cast, then it might get to be a bit much.
Anyway, it's a very intrigueing idea and if the goal is to create something new, these kinds of ideas may have a place. And if it takes more work, so be it. I'd rather have an exiting, interesting game with 1000's of possible combinations rather than a boring one where I get pretty much the same abilities as everyone else and have the same things as everyone else.
If nothing else, maybe GW could take a page from RPG superstar and allow a monthly spell submission for consideration. Best spell gets included in a subsequent patch after it's been designed, playtested, and balanced.