All that said, this is probably not the place to discuss the perceived shortcomings of the trait system - consider my side rant over and please continue discussing the magus :)
I appreciate your courtesy. Your post actually got me thinking, so I created a new post to touch upon it.
Now then, to try and beat the bushes and get some more magus testimonials. I know people are playing them, but they seem shy about talking about them at times. :p
|
Probably because those of us that haven't optimized them feel that we will called out for our badwrongunfun way of gaming.
My strength based, Varisian blackblade has Harrow born as a trait and Harrowed as a feat. I have taken them as part of my background as a Varisian that has studied magic at the Twilight Academy of Galduria and is very interested in the ancient Harrow deck magic, but both the trait and the feat are very weak mechanically. Any optimizer, even a mild one, will howl in anguish at my choices.
I got a lvl 7 Str based magus and just took Craft wonderous item as my last feat because i got so manny recourses that i dont realy need anny feats right now!
I'm gonna craft me a handband of vast int and some more pearl's and I'll be killer!
intensefied spell realy helps and i got 3 lvl 1 Pearl's of power because i started out at lvl 5 and they are dirty cheap!
I stil don't have powerattack
oh and dont forget putting a second hand on your weapon is stil a free action so you can always use 2 hands on your weapon for 1.5 STR damage
dervish dancer wil help ALOT as you'll get your DEX as damage!
I can give my perspective as a DM running a Bladebound Magus up to lvl 10.
1. Bladebound is easily the most powerful archetype a Magus can get for a fairly low cost. Not taking it will make your character weaker. By level 9 the Magus I'm running didn't have to worry about DR any longer. He would power his sword to a +5 weapon with keen. All concerns over DR gone and a +5 weapon just about every battle.
2. shocking grasp does a lot of damage. I can counter it now and again, but for 90% of battles it is highly effective.
3. Other players are vastly overshadowed by the Magus when it comes to damage dealing. If a Magus decides to go after the main BBEG, he can often take him out much easier than other classes.
4. Sometimes the Magus can become overconfident about his ability to kill things. It can cost him if he doesn't take some defensive precautions. They don't have the highest hit points. If they show themselves to be the most dangerous enemy, they can go down quickly when focused on. Displacement and Mirror Image are your friends.
5. The Dex/scimitar build seems strongest. Piranha Strike adds a nice amount of damage given how easily the Magus hits. Using Dex as a focus stats improves the weak save of the Magus class.
Magus is a very powerful class. It overshadows the rogue and monk in the group and that shadow is getting larger and larger as the Magus increases in level. They have some great defensive spells along with their powerful offense.
I have a 9th level bladebound magus in the RotRL campaign I am currently GMing. The player is brand new to Pathfinder and admitted to "reading some guides" when he made his character, so it's more or less exactly what Walter's magus guide suggests. Dervish dance, magical lineage, intensified shocking grasps etc.
My experiences are overall similar to Raith:
Bladebound means his weapon is on average at least +1 higher than any other weapon in the party before spending arcane pool points. He has minimal issues dealing with DR unless it is DR/Slashing. The one drawback of the bladebound magus is that he cannot custom enchant his sword, which means he loses out on otherwise incredibly potent options for magi, such as Spell Storing.
Intensified Shocking Grasps are terrifying for the AP monsters. Single BBEG encounters tend to end very, very fast unless I take steps to give the character additional durability.
The character consistently outdamages a similar level (dw) ninja, (s&b) paladin, (dw s&b) fighter/rogue, (conjuration summoner) wizard and (ranged) inquisitor. A great deal of that damage is tied up in spell slots and pearls of power - if the day drags on long enough for him to run out of spell slots the DPR drops significantly. It should be noted that while the other characters are no slouches they are (possibly excepting the wizard) not optimized to the same level as the magus so I might be getting false readings.
While it gets access to excellent defensive buffs, the baseline class is fragile. This can be made up for if you use Spell Combat to cast mirror image and displacement instead of just going for shocking grasps, though that affects your DPR. There have been encounters where the magus has gotten overeager, got flanked and/or surrounded and promptly eaten the dirt.
@Raith
One thing to note is that Piranha Strike doesn't work with the scimitar or the rapier. The feat only works with light weapons.
|
|
I can give my perspective as a DM running a Bladebound Magus up to lvl 10.
1. Bladebound is easily the most powerful archetype a Magus can get for a fairly low cost. Not taking it will make your character weaker. By level 9 the Magus I'm running didn't have to worry about DR any longer. He would power his sword to a +5 weapon with keen. All concerns over DR gone and a +5 weapon just about every battle.
Where is is different from a magus with a +3 weapon? Or a +2 keen?
At 9th level crafting a +3 sword cost 9.000 gp and 18 days. Teh spellcraft check is hardly a problem.
My doubt about the bladebound is that the black blade feature drop in efficiency against craft arms and armor from level 10 onward (but it is very strong at level 3-7).
2. shocking grasp does a lot of damage. I can counter it now and again, but for 90% of battles it is highly effective.
I suppose you mean intensified shocking grasp.
3. Other players are vastly overshadowed by the Magus when it comes to damage dealing. If a Magus decides to go after the main BBEG, he can often take him out much easier than other classes.
What other classes in your group? My recent experience say that a inquisitor will hit more often and deal more damage consistently. But it can be a problem of my build.
4. Sometimes the Magus can become overconfident about his ability to kill things. It can cost him if he doesn't take some defensive precautions. They don't have the highest hit points. If they show themselves to be the most dangerous enemy, they can go down quickly when focused on. Displacement and Mirror Image are your friends.
Signed.
5. The Dex/scimitar build seems strongest. Piranha Strike adds a nice amount of damage given how easily the Magus hits. Using Dex as a focus stats improves the weak save of the Magus class.
Agreed on the dex build. I am less convinced about the "how easily the Magus hit" part, at least when confronted with mostly martial characters like the inquisitor or the full BAB classes.
Edit: Kodaku is right about Piranha Strike.
Magus is a very powerful class. It overshadows the rogue and monk in the group and that shadow is getting larger and larger as the Magus increases in level. They have some great defensive spells along with their powerful offense.
So a rogue and a monk in the group. Yes, I was easily overshadowing the bard and cleric in my group as a damage dealer. That don't make me particularly impressive when confronted with a inquisitor using her full abilities or a full BAB class.
My Elven Kensai Magus just hit level 7, and I'm not crying about not going bladebound (it isn't worth the skipped arcana, IMO). His weapon is a mithril scimitar +1, and I pump up as needed, usually to just a +2 keen weapon. Most fights don't even require him to burn an ISG (Intensified Shocking Grasp), and so far his main role has been more about being the primary target to take the heat off the other members, since we have only a 3-person team. His AC rivals most fighters with heavy armor and shields, and much better with a round or two of prep (Shield is awesome, and Cat's Grace is as well).
In addition, I haven't seen much chatter about kensai wearing armor, but if you stick with darkleaf leather, you can get your AC it even more ridiculous levels. Mirror Image is his preferred Round 1 spell of choice for spell combat. Touch of Fatigue (from Spell Blending arcana, also took Prot/Evil) is a crazy good staple spell.
Do you not find the ASF an issue? I find that failing even 5% of your spells is a hassle.
Also, possibly a dumb question but why a mithral scimitar? Apart from the weight reduction, what does mithral bring to the table?
|
|
Also, possibly a dumb question but why a mithral scimitar? Apart from the weight reduction, what does mithral bring to the table?
It count as silver without the damage reduction and it is harder to sunder.
An its aspect is more striking :P
In addition, I haven't seen much chatter about kensai wearing armor, but if you stick with darkleaf leather, you can get your AC it even more ridiculous levels. Mirror Image is his preferred Round 1 spell of choice for spell combat.
Nice, I hadn't considered that Canny Defense work with light armor.
Probably because those of us that haven't optimized them feel that we will called out for our badwrongunfun way of gaming.
You won't have to worry about that in one of my threads, I can promise you that. I'm a firm believer that there's no wrong way to game, so long as everyone at your table is having fun. :D
My strength based, Varisian blackblade has Harrow born as a trait and Harrowed as a feat. I have taken them as part of my background as a Varisian that has studied magic at the Twilight Academy of Galduria and is very interested in the ancient Harrow deck magic, but both the trait and the feat are very weak mechanically. Any optimizer, even a mild one, will howl in anguish at my choices.
I'm an optimizer, and I'm not in anguish. :p It's good to hear about others playing your class, and I've found that even folks with vastly different builds than my planned one can give me ideas, both for RP and mechanical options I hadn't considered. :)
1. Bladebound is easily the most powerful archetype a Magus can get for a fairly low cost. Not taking it will make your character weaker. By level 9 the Magus I'm running didn't have to worry about DR any longer. He would power his sword to a +5 weapon with keen. All concerns over DR gone and a +5 weapon just about every battle.
*nod* I'm currently playing a non-archetype magus, mostly because part of his shtick was that he has a mechanical background (maxed out Knowledge: Engineering) and is building his own signature weapon (a gunblade) that he'll modify/repair/upgrade as the campaign progresses. It didn't seem like it'd jive with the black blade concept at all.
Should I play a magus again though, I'll most likely go black blade. Not only does it double the gold savings of the magus' weapon, but (at least in my experience) it's rare to get to play with an intelligent magic item, and that opens up some interesting RP opportunities.
And mechanically, I'm less than pleased with many of the magus arcana choices, so giving up that 3rd-level arcana is virtually painless. The only real cost for the archetype is the reduced Arcane Pool.
2. shocking grasp does a lot of damage. I can counter it now and again, but for 90% of battles it is highly effective.
I'm definitely going the Shocking Grasp route. At high levels he'll be able to toss out two Intensified Shocking Grasps a round when he can full attack, possibly empowered. Should be fun.
However for a strength magus, I'm thinking going the Frostbite route with Monstrous Physique could be very, very effective as well. Your strength modifies all your natural attacks, which also deliver Frostbite charges.
3. Other players are vastly overshadowed by the Magus when it comes to damage dealing. If a Magus decides to go after the main BBEG, he can often take him out much easier than other classes.
So far this hasn't happened in my game. Or big gun presently is our large-sized monk, who--wielding a large-sized monk reach weapon--has a 20 foot reach and combat reflexes. He hits anything moving in the entire room, and can open up a can of whoopass by flurrying on a single target as well.
However, his increased damage die due to being large is likely to lose its advantage as we continue to level and I continue to add d6s to my shocking grasps and gain more spell slots and more pearls of power to cast them more often. I suspect that I'll match and possibly exceed him as time goes on.
4. Sometimes the Magus can become overconfident about his ability to kill things. It can cost him if he doesn't take some defensive precautions. They don't have the highest hit points. If they show themselves to be the most dangerous enemy, they can go down quickly when focused on. Displacement and Mirror Image are your friends.
*nod* I already use Shield as a staple. That combined with a high dex mean my AC is decent. Not *quite* as high as our Twin Towers (the two party clerics) but definitely respectable. Eventually when I can pick up Celestial Armor I should be right up there with them, since my dex will only continue to increase. I've got Mirror Image set as my very first 2nd-level spell learned, along with Cat's Grace. :)
5. The Dex/scimitar build seems strongest. Piranha Strike adds a nice amount of damage given how easily the Magus hits. Using Dex as a focus stats improves the weak save of the Magus class.
I went dex/scimitar, though my reason was actually for fluff purposes. I've always wanted to play a lightly armored swashbuckler type, but my desire to remain at least competitive performance-wise has made that tough. The magus gives me that opportunity, as well as being a gish, which is also a favorite archetype of mine.
I hadn't actually considered that dex does indeed shore up the magus' one weak save...bonus! :D
At 9th level crafting a +3 sword cost 9.000 gp and 18 days. Teh spellcraft check is hardly a problem.
My doubt about the bladebound is that the black blade feature drop in efficiency against craft arms and armor from level 10 onward (but it is very strong at level 3-7).
How does the bladebound magus' weapon fall behind, Diego? If you consider the black blade's inherent bonuses plus the boost from the magus' arcane pool, it's likely to be the most powerful magical weapon in the party from 1-20. And it's free, meaning that no matter how cheap someone with Craft Arms and Armor can make a weapon, it won't be more cost effective than "free"...right? I could be missing something though. :p
I stil don't have powerattack
I keep going back and forth on Power Attack. I have the strength to pick it up. And I could afford the feat at mid/high levels.
By then, I'm thinking I'll most likely be using Monstrous Physique nearly every combat, for the flight and darkvision if nothing else. The best forms also come with a ton of natural attacks. These don't jive well with a Shocking Grasp focused magus (you can't use natural attacks in conjunction with Spell Combat).
However, imagine a round where you use Accurate Strike to make all your attacks touch attacks, then combine that with Frostbite, Power Attack, and six natural attacks. >:)
I'm thinking this may be a fun way to deal with any electricity resistant/immune foes I may come across.
Let's assume that no magus is going to want to enchant his weapon above +5 - with the additional +5 from the arcane pool enhancement bonus, that caps the sword at +10.
Furthermore, let's assume both characters get normal WBL and buys new swords at the frequency that the black blade upgrades. The bladebound magus is called Xavier (X) and the traditional magus is called Zed (Z).
At 3rd level Xavier gets a free +1 weapon. His WBL is 3000 GP.
At 3rd level Zed has enough money to buy a +1 weapon. His WBL is 3000 gp. He spends 2000 gp (66% of his WBL) on it.
At 5th level Xavier gets a free +2 weapon. His WBL is 10 500 GP.
At 5th level Zed has enough money to buy a +2 weapon. His WBL is 10 500 gp. He spends 8000 gp (76% of his WBL) on it.
At 9th level Xavier gets a free +3 weapon. His WBL is 18 000 GP.
At 9th level Zed has enough money to buy a +3 weapon. His WBL is 46 000 GP. He spends 18 000 GP (39% of his WBL) on it.
At 13th level Xavier gets a free +4 weapon. His WBL is 140 000 GP.
At 13th level Zed has enough money to buy a +4 weapon. His WBL is 140 000 GP. He spends 32 000 GP (23% of his WBL) on it.
At 17th level Xavier gets a free +5 weapon. His WBL is 410 000 GP.
At 17th level Zed has enough money to buy a +5 weapon. His WBL is 410 000 GP. He spends 50 000 GP (12% of his WBL) on it.
At 20th level Xavier still has a free +5 weapon. His WBL is 880 000 GP.
At 20th level Zed has already bought a +5 weapon. His WBL is 880 000 GP. His weapon takes up 6% of his total WBL.
At the lower levels the WBL benefit of the black blade is colossal and a complete gamechanger, while the difference in arcane pool points is minimal. At higher levels, the free blade is an advantage but not as big, while the gap in arcane pool points is starting to show.
Furthermore, at the higher levels Zed can customize his own weapon instead of being stuck with a plain +5 model - using the arcane pool to add enhancements is nice, but you still miss out on some of the best options for magi (like spell storing).
However, the bladebound magus is guaranteed to always have a sword that fits his combat style, that levels up with him, and he will have significantly easier time making his WBL last at the low to medium levels. Weapons tend to be the biggest expense of any combat oriented class, and especially for the magus (who normally has to spend money on armor, weapons, pearls, scribing spells, scrolls, wands, and everything else) being able to ignore your weapon when you set up your WBL budget is a really big deal.
I have a 9th level bladebound magus in the RotRL campaign I am currently GMing. The player is brand new to Pathfinder and admitted to "reading some guides" when he made his character, so it's more or less exactly what Walter's magus guide suggests. Dervish dance, magical lineage, intensified shocking grasps etc.
My experiences are overall similar to Raith:
Bladebound means his weapon is on average at least +1 higher than any other weapon in the party before spending arcane pool points. He has minimal issues dealing with DR unless it is DR/Slashing. The one drawback of the bladebound magus is that he cannot custom enchant his sword, which means he loses out on otherwise incredibly potent options for magi, such as Spell Storing.
Intensified Shocking Grasps are terrifying for the AP monsters. Single BBEG encounters tend to end very, very fast unless I take steps to give the character additional durability.
The character consistently outdamages a similar level (dw) ninja, (s&b) paladin, (dw s&b) fighter/rogue, (conjuration summoner) wizard and (ranged) inquisitor. A great deal of that damage is tied up in spell slots and pearls of power - if the day drags on long enough for him to run out of spell slots the DPR drops significantly. It should be noted that while the other characters are no slouches they are (possibly excepting the wizard) not optimized to the same level as the magus so I might be getting false readings.
While it gets access to excellent defensive buffs, the baseline class is fragile. This can be made up for if you use Spell Combat to cast mirror image and displacement instead of just going for shocking grasps, though that affects your DPR. There have been encounters where the magus has gotten overeager, got flanked and/or surrounded and promptly eaten the dirt.
@Raith
One thing to note is that Piranha Strike doesn't work with the scimitar or the rapier. The feat only works with light weapons.
That's right. Allowing Piranha Strike with a Scimitar is a house rule of ours. We allow Piranha Strike with any weapon since we allow Weapon Finesse with any weapon, so we don't screw over Dex-based martials.
So most DMs don't have to worry about Piranha Strike from the Scimiar wielding Magus.
Ah, just wanted to make sure you were aware of the RAW version. That's not a bad houserule actually.
My Elven Kensai Magus just hit level 7, and I'm not crying about not going bladebound (it isn't worth the skipped arcana, IMO). His weapon is a mithril scimitar +1, and I pump up as needed, usually to just a +2 keen weapon. Most fights don't even require him to burn an ISG (Intensified Shocking Grasp), and so far his main role has been more about being the primary target to take the heat off the other members, since we have only a 3-person team. His AC rivals most fighters with heavy armor and shields, and much better with a round or two of prep (Shield is awesome, and Cat's Grace is as well).
In addition, I haven't seen much chatter about kensai wearing armor, but if you stick with darkleaf leather, you can get your AC it even more ridiculous levels. Mirror Image is his preferred Round 1 spell of choice for spell combat. Touch of Fatigue (from Spell Blending arcana, also took Prot/Evil) is a crazy good staple spell.
You may not miss bladebound if your DM gives you better magic items or you gain access to them quickly. Having access to a +3 weapon at lvl 9 is a good tradeoff for one Magus Arcana.
You're a Kensai. You should be more melee focused. He is a shocking grasp focused Magus.
Diego Rossi,
The three party member martials are a Monk, Ninja, and Paladin. The ninja can dish some great damage when he can sneak attack. He just picked up greater invisibility, so maybe he improves. The monk misses too often even with all of his attacks. All the misses cause his damage to be seriously reduced. The paladin brings the pain when his smite works. Still not quite on par with the Magus, but brutal nonetheless.
I think an Inquisitor can match the Magus for damage. One of the few classes that can. I've played an Inquisitor of Gorum, he could dish it at or better than Magus. Every single one of his hits was a 10d6 hit with bonuses. Not just the shocking grasp hit. That scimitar shocking grasp hit is real nasty.
At the lower levels the WBL benefit of the black blade is colossal and a complete gamechanger, while the difference in arcane pool points is minimal. At higher levels, the free blade is an advantage but not as big, while the gap in arcane pool points is starting to show.
Furthermore, at the higher levels Zed can customize his own weapon instead of being stuck with a plain +5 model - using the arcane pool to add enhancements is nice, but you still miss out on some of the best options for magi (like spell storing).
However, the bladebound magus is guaranteed to always have a sword that fits his combat style, that levels up with him, and he will have significantly easier time making his WBL last at the low to medium levels. Weapons tend to be the biggest expense of any combat oriented class, and especially for the magus (who normally has to spend money on armor, weapons, pearls, scribing spells, scrolls, wands, and everything else) being able to ignore your weapon when you set up your WBL budget is a really big deal.
Thanks for taking the time to do this comparison Kudaku. It really clarified the pros and cons of the bladebound archetype for me. :)
|
|
How does the bladebound magus' weapon fall behind, Diego? If you consider the black blade's inherent bonuses plus the boost from the magus' arcane pool, it's likely to be the most powerful magical weapon in the party from 1-20. And it's free, meaning that no matter how cheap someone with Craft Arms and Armor can make a weapon, it won't be more cost effective than "free"...right? I could be missing something though. :pAt 9th level crafting a +3 sword cost 9.000 gp and 18 days. Teh spellcraft check is hardly a problem.
My doubt about the bladebound is that the black blade feature drop in efficiency against craft arms and armor from level 10 onward (but it is very strong at level 3-7).
It fall back against what a non bladebound magus will get.
On the basis of the Ultimate Campaign a crafting feat should increase your WBL by around 25%, multiple feats by around 50%So let's compare what you will get at key level spending an arcana to become a bladebound (roughly the equivalent of a feat) against the extra WBL you would get from Craft magic arms and armor (as a normal magus can enhance a weapon with his arcane pool as efficiently as a bladeboudn magus, there is not difference from that) :
level - Bladebound weapon value - extra WBL with Craft magic arms and armor
lvl. 3 - +1 wp. 2.000 gp - 750 gp (big advantage for the magus)
lvl. 4 - +1 wp. 2.000 gp - 1.500 gp (still an advantag, but not much))
lvl. 5 - +2 wp. 8.000 gp - 2.625 gp (the magus jump ahead again by a good margin)
lvl. 8 - +2 wp. 8.000 gp - 8.250 gp (very slightly behind)
lvl. 9 - +3 wp. 18.000 gp - 11.500 gp (the magus jump ahead again)
lvl. 11 - +3 wp. 18.000 gp - 20.500 gp (slightly behind)
lvl. 12 - +3 wp. 18.000 gp - 27.000 gp (another step back)
lvl. 13 - +4 wp. 32.000 gp - 35.000 gp (recover, but still behind)
lvl. 14 - +4 wp. 32.000 gp - 46.250 gp (far back)
lvl. 17 - +5 wp. 50.000 gp - 102.500 (far, far back)
lvl. 20 - +5 wp. 50.000 gp - 220.000 (lost in the dust)
Add the simple fact that any special ability beyond the basic group require another arcana and high levels (the arcana that make your weapon holy require a 12th level magus but it a common ability at level 8 o so for the main weapon of a melee character, taking the bane arcana require to be 15th level) an you will see that a bladebound is ahead from level 3 to 10 but then if fall back against a normal magus that is crafting his own weapon.
The +2 weapon at level 5 is potentially too good, a +5 weapon at level 17+ is weak for the standards of other meele based classes.
- * -
Kodaku, you are forgetting a facto: what is doing the "plain" Magus with the arcana he hasn't spent at level 3?
Generally he is taking an ability that he will not have to take at higher levels, avoiding to spend a feat to take extra arcana and freeing it for Craft arms and armor.
If he has a friend in his group willing to craft his items for him he is in a even better position.
*Kudaku, not Kodaku :)
The bladebound magus is free to use the feat the plain magus is using on craft weapons & armor to take another more interesting feat, Craft wondrous items for instance. He could even take Extra Arcana and recuperate his arcana loss, though imho that's a subpar option.
So let's consider this:
A bladebound magus takes extra arcana at level 3. He now has the same amount of arcana as a plain magus. The plain magus takes Craft Weapons & Armor, and can now craft weapons at half cost assuming he gets the required downtime.
The bladebound and the plain magus are now on equal footing arcana-wise.
The plain magus makes a +3 weapon for 9k instead of 18k.
The bladebound magus already has a +3 weapon and instead spends 9k on wondrous items, armor, scrolls, and potions. He is one point behind in arcane pool points (9/3 = 3+int vs 9/2=4+int).
Another alternative:
A bladebound magus takes craft wondrous items at level 3, and can now craft wondrous items at half cost assuming he gets the required downtime. He has one less arcana than the plain magus. The plain magus takes craft weapons & armor, and can now craft weapons at half cost assuming he gets the required downtime.
The plain magus spends 9k crafting his +3 weapon instead of 18k.
The bladebound magus already has a +3 weapon for free. Instead he spends 9k crafting 18k worth of wondrous items. He buys 1st level 5 pearls of power, and a belt of dexterity +2.
I believe I outlined earlier and at some detail the percentage-wise difference between the plain and the bladebound magus WBL-wise.
Past level 13 or so plain magus starts to catch up with Bladebound since the wealth benefit shrinks significantly with the escalating WBL and the plain magus has enough money to throw around to really customize his sword.
However, at low to medium games (3-12) the bladebound will absolutely trash a typical magus simply because of the massive WBL advantage.
Finally, it should be noted that this is a comparison based only on the WBL benefits of bladebound over plain magus. Bladebound also get a set of class features from the blade - most are circumstantial but they should still be considered for their merits.
Free alertness feat? Sure, why not.
The blade can't be broken as long as it has at least one AP point. If it is destroyed, it is very cheap to replace compared to a magic weapon of equal bonus.
Energy Attunement allows the bladebound magus to cut through damage reduction, typically a problem for the dervish dancer who relies entirely on slashing damage.
Transfer Arcana goes some way to help the bladebound with his more shallow (shallower?) arcane pool.
Spell defense provides the magus with free action Spell Resistance 22 that scales with level.
Lifedrinker allows the magus to quickly replenish his arcane pool along the way.
@Lord Pendragon
Happy to help :)
|
|
A bladebound magus takes extra arcana at level 3. He now has the same amount of arcana as a plain magus.
A bladebound mage can't take extra arcana at level 3: he ahs traded away his magus arcana feature, so he can't take extra arcana until he get it again at level 6th.
The blade can never be sundered or destroyed as long as it has at least one AP point.
It can't be broken, that is a specific condition in this game.
Unbreakable (Ex): As long as it has at least 1 point in its arcane pool, a black blade is immune to the broken condition. If broken, the black blade is unconscious and powerless until repaired. If destroyed, the black blade can be reforged 1 week later through a special ritual that costs 200 gp per magus level. The ritual takes 24 hours to complete.
Broken: Items that have taken damage in excess of half their total hit points gain the broken condition, meaning they are less effective at their designated task. The broken condition has the following effects, depending upon the item.
If the item is a weapon, any attacks made with the item suffer a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Such weapons only score a critical hit on a natural 20 and only deal ×2 damage on a confirmed critical hit.
Destroyed is a different condition. Nowhere it say that the BB don't take hp of damage, it simply say that it is immune to the broken condition.
Telepathic communication with a blade that can also speak turns the blade into a two-way walkie-talkie.
Telepathy (Su): While a magus is wielding or carrying his black blade, he can communicate telepathically with the blade in a language that the magus and the black blade share.
Very short range. From your waist or hand to your head.
Energy Attunement allows the bladebound magus to cut through damage reduction, typically a problem for the dervish dancer who relies entirely on slashing damage.
True
Transfer Arcana goes some way to help the bladebound with his more shallow (shallower?) arcane pool.
Transfer Arcana (Su): At 13th level, once per day, a magus can attempt to siphon points from his black blade's arcane pool into his own arcane pool. Doing so takes a full-round action and the magus must succeed at a Will saving throw with a DC equal to the black blade's ego. If the magus succeeds, he regains 1 point to his arcane pool for every 2 points he saps from his black blade. If he fails the saving throw, the magus becomes fatigued (but can try again). If he is fatigued, he becomes exhausted instead. He cannot use this ability if he is exhausted.
Not a safe procedure.
Spell defense provides the magus with free action Spell Resistance 22 that scales with level.
22 at level 17 and 24 at level 19. I.e. SR=5+character level.
Lifedrinker allows the magus to quickly replenish his arcane pool along the way.
Life Drinker (Su): At 19th level, each time the magus kills a living creature with the black blade, he can pick one of the following effects: the black blade restores 2 points to its arcane pool; the black blade restores 1 point to its arcane pool and the magus restores 1 point to his arcane pool; the magus gains a number of temporary hit points equal to the black blade's ego (these temporary hit points last until spent or 1 minute, whichever is shorter). The creature killed must have a number of Hit Dice equal to half the magus's character level for this to occur.
vs.
Wyroot: The root of the wyrwood tree has a peculiar quality. When a weapon constructed of wyroot confirms a critical hit, it absorbs some of the life force of the creature hit. The creature hit is unharmed and the wyroot weapon gains 1 life point. As a swift action, a wielder with a ki pool or an arcane pool can absorb 1 life point from the wyrwood weapon and convert it into either 1 ki point or 1 arcane pool point. Most wyroot weapons can only hold 1 life point at a time, but higher-quality wyroot does exist. The most powerful wyroot weapons can hold up to 3 life points at a time. Any unspent life points dissipate at dusk.
I can get more arcana point with a few caged rats.
it is true that a black blade is non adjustable but even at lvl 20 nobody is saying you need to soley use the black blade you can stil get a spell storing weapon if you would realy like and let your black blade dance!! :-)
@Extra Arcana
Then the magus takes extra arcana at whatever level makes it more convenient. Come to think of it craft weapons has a minimum CL requirement of 5 so neither feat is applicable at level 3.
@Black Blade Breaking Bad
I worded that awkwardly, I meant that even if the blade is destroyed it is cheap to replace (200 gp per magus level) as opposed to 25k for a normal +5 weapon.
That is an interesting question actually - if the blade is broken (sundered while out of arcane pool points) it needs to be repaired.
Repairing a magic item requires material components equal to half the cost to create the item, and requires half the time.
What is the cost to create a black blade?
|
|
@Extra Arcana
Then the magus takes extra arcana at whatever level makes it more convenient. Come to think of it craft weapons has a minimum CL requirement of 5 so neither feat is applicable at level 3.@Black Blade Breaking Bad
I worded that awkwardly, I meant that even if the blade is destroyed it is cheap to replace (200 gp per magus level) as opposed to 25k for a normal +5 weapon.That is an interesting question actually - if the blade is broken (sundered while out of arcane pool points) it needs to be repaired.
Repairing a magic item requires material components equal to half the cost to create the item, and requires half the time.What is the cost to create a black blade?
If it is broken but not destroyed you use mending, like for any other item.
You can't repair a destroyed +5 weapon, but a 18th level caster can repair a destroyed +3 holy weapon with a casting of make whole.
Cost: 360 gp for the casting
Make whole can fix destroyed magic items (at 0 hit points or less), and restores the magic properties of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item.
So it cost more to repair a destroyed BB than a normal magical weapon.
The CL vary greatly: flame burst is CL 12 so it will make practically impossible to repair your weapon, but holy is CL 7.
You didn't actually answer the question on a black blade - what if you do not have access to mending? Mending is not on the magus spell list.
And actually I specifically stated a +5 weapon, which can be repaired - but only if you spend half the original value and time doing it. There's no spell quick fix available for any generic weapon with an enhancement bonus of +4 or higher unless you go epic and/or get a deity involved.
@Wyroot
I don't really see why you bring this up - Coup De Grace on rats doesn't give back arcane pool points. If your GM genuinely allows you to build arcane pool by blasting through rats till you get a critical hit then good for you! I've yet to meet a GM who's that accomodating. Finally, even if this is allowed then it's a bigger boon for the bladebound magus than for the regular one, since the bladebound magi are the ones with a smaller arcane pool - they run out more often and so they benefit more from an easy way to refill it. Either way a net gain for Bladebound, and potentially one that means the only thing you lose out on by taking the archetype is a single arcana.
@Transfer Arcana
First of all It's a DC 16 will save, a strong save for the magus, at level 13. His class bonus will save at 13 alone is +8. There's no need to use the ability in combat, which means he has every chance to prepare before using it. The fact that he could accidentally roll a natural 1 doesn't invalidate it as a class feature.
I took Craft Wonderous Item at 3rd level. While it's true you save a good amount of cash on your weapon if you take Craft Weapons and Armor, CWI can benefit the entire party, stretching the party's WBL. Getting access to Cloaks of Resistance, Belts of Str/Dex/Con, Pearls of Power, etc, means that one feat saves a LOT more than one weapon (more depending on party make-up for sure, but not everyone is a weapon user).
|
|
You didn't actually answer the question on a black blade - what if you do not have access to mending? Mending is not on the magus spell list.
Wand of mending (375 gp), UMD check at 20 with a class skill. with 1 rank and 10 cha you succeed 25% of the time.
And actually I specifically stated a +5 weapon, which can be repaired - but only if you spend half the original value and time doing it. There's no spell quick fix available for any generic weapon with an enhancement bonus of +4 or higher unless you go epic and/or get a deity involved.
Why you would craft a +5 weapon when you can craft a +3 weapon with extra features that can be repaired? That is, if it is destroyed, as mending can repair any item as long as it has 1 hp.
@Wyroot
I don't really see why you bring this up - Coup De Grace on rats doesn't give back arcane pool points. If your GM genuinely allows you to build arcane pool by blasting through rats till you get a critical hit then good for you! I've yet to meet a GM who's that accomodating. Finally, even if this is allowed then it's a bigger boon for the bladebound magus than for the regular one, since the bladebound magi are the ones with a smaller arcane pool - they run out more often and so they benefit more from an easy way to refill it. Either way a net gain for Bladebound, and potentially one that means the only thing you lose out on by taking the archetype is a single arcana.
Because wyroot show exactly how strong is the 19th level ability of the BB.
To have it work you need to kill a creature whose HD is half of your character level. How often it happen that you are the guy that deliver the killing blow with your BB? Not with your spell damage, as bleeding damage for your arcana or any other things. It must be the BB damage.On the other hand a guy with a wyroot club can can bash small animals and 1 times in 20 he get 1 arcana point (I didn't say anything about CDG, the question if it is count as a critical is for another thread).
The BB ability is on par with a 1.000 gp item.
|
|
I took Craft Wonderous Item at 3rd level. While it's true you save a good amount of cash on your weapon if you take Craft Weapons and Armor, CWI can benefit the entire party, stretching the party's WBL. Getting access to Cloaks of Resistance, Belts of Str/Dex/Con, Pearls of Power, etc, means that one feat saves a LOT more than one weapon (more depending on party make-up for sure, but not everyone is a weapon user).
Yes, CWI work better. It is the best craft feature to pick, I used Craft magic warms and armor simply because we are speaking of a weapon and a BB magus can use CWI on his gear while he can't use Craft magic warms and armor on the BB. The probability of a normal magus and a BB taking Craft wondrous items are approximately the same.
|
|
A magus that can borrow a common trick from the wizard for any weapon that isn't a black blade:
greater magic weapon is on his spell list, so when he can use a +1 weapon with whatever special abilities he like and cast greater magic weapon on it.
With a CL of 8 the weapon enhancement become +2 for all purposes beside bypassing damage reduction, at level 12 it become +3, 16 +4 and 20 +5, all that at the expense of a 3rd level spell.
His ability to enhance a weapon will work normally on that weapon so, until he reach a high level or get hold of a very powerful weapon, he will enjoy the benefits of a customized weapon with a good attack and damage bonus while retaining the ability to add powers on the fly.
I stil the black blade is worth more than what I give up for it the arcane pool i lose I get back into points that are in my black blade and at later lvl's I can even extract those points.
the arcana i lost i get the alertness feat for wic is +2 on perception wich is huge for a magus!
then i also get an aditional roll for arcane knowledge checks as it has knowledge arcana and can see and hear things just fine.
the only think im not certain about it doese it gain perception rolls as it can see and hear!
Wand of mending (375 gp), UMD check at 20 with a class skill. with 1 rank and 10 cha you succeed 25% of the time.
And the magus has no ranks in UMD and no wand of mending. How would you rule it? Just because there's a workaround doesn't mean there isn't a problem with the repair section in the first place :)
Why you would craft a +5 weapon when you can craft a +3 weapon with extra features that can be repaired? That is, if it is destroyed, as mending can repair any item as long as it has 1 hp.
...Because it was the item being compared?
Because wyroot show exactly how strong is the 19th level ability of the BB.
To have it work you need to kill a creature whose HD is half of your character level. How often it happen that you are the guy that deliver the killing blow with your BB? Not with your spell damage, as bleeding damage for your arcana or any other things. It must be the BB damage.
"Each time the bladebound magus kills a living creature with the black blade"
I have a hard time seeing how using Shocking Grasp with my sword to spellstrike annd kill someone doesn't qualify as killing someone with the sword.
Either way this discussion is kind of pointless since I apparently no longer need to worry about the pool points - see below.
On the other hand a guy with a wyroot club can can bash small animals and 1 times in 20 he get 1 arcana point (I didn't say anything about CDG, the question if it is count as a critical is for another thread).
The BB ability is on par with a 1.000 gp item.
For the sake of the discussion let's accept the fact that you can bludgeon rats with the wyroot club until you get a crit and farm arcane points that way.
By that ruling the arcane pool limitation of the bladebound is now pretty much pointless since you can simply refill the pool rodent-style every time you spend a point. Yay, No more pearls of power!
So the bladebound magus is now exactly 1 arcana behind the plain magus. If he takes Extra Arcana at level 7, they're identical. Well, except the extra class features and the free +2 weapon.
Apparently Lifedrinker is no longer needed since I can ignore 50% of my archetype drawbacks (100% of the drawbacks at the cost of a feat) while enjoying a significant WBL advantage and a series of unique class features as long as I have 1k gp (available at level 2) and a ready supply of rodents :D
I stil don't have powerattackI keep going back and forth on Power Attack. I have the strength to pick it up. And I could afford the feat at mid/high levels.
By then, I'm thinking I'll most likely be using Monstrous Physique nearly every combat, for the flight and darkvision if nothing else. The best forms also come with a ton of natural attacks. These don't jive well with a Shocking Grasp focused magus (you can't use natural attacks in conjunction with Spell Combat).
However, imagine a round where you use Accurate Strike to make all your attacks touch attacks, then combine that with Frostbite, Power Attack, and six natural attacks. >:)
I'm thinking this may be a fun way to deal with any electricity resistant/immune foes I may come across.
I would think most Magus like being able to customize their enchantments at need as well. The one thing about enchanting a blade is once it is made, it is set. Whereas a Magus can change his blackblade as needed with his Arcane Pool. Not to mention being able to recover Arcane Pool points killing enemies is pretty nifty.
Then there is the energy blade damage as some mentioned. Cuts right through DR and energy resistance.
Then there is Blackblade Strike. Extra untyped damage is always nice.
|
|
How does the bladebound magus' weapon fall behind, Diego? If you consider the black blade's inherent bonuses plus the boost from the magus' arcane pool, it's likely to be the most powerful magical weapon in the party from 1-20. And it's free, meaning that no matter how cheap someone with Craft Arms and Armor can make a weapon, it won't be more cost effective than "free"...right? I could be missing something though. :pAt 9th level crafting a +3 sword cost 9.000 gp and 18 days. Teh spellcraft check is hardly a problem.
My doubt about the bladebound is that the black blade feature drop in efficiency against craft arms and armor from level 10 onward (but it is very strong at level 3-7).
Seeing how "free" has a cost (3 arcana point at level 20, 1 arcana spent for the black blade, a fixed progression for the blade instead of customization), yes, you are missing something.
If the cost is a bargain or not is one of the arguments of this discussions, but it is not "free".
Seeing how "free" has a cost (3 arcana point at level 20, 1 arcana spent for the black blade, a fixed progression for the blade instead of customization), yes, you are missing something.
If the cost is a bargain or not is one of the arguments of this discussions, but it is not "free".
Ahhh, but don't forget that arcane pool points are irrelevant as long as you don't run out of rats, Diego.
|
A metamagicked spell is a spell, it's just in most ways treated like a spell of the original spell's level. You can make a scroll of it, etc.
Regarding using Recall to recover things on the cheap, it uses the same principle as a Lesser Metamagic Rod on a Empowered Fireball and that's all in the CRB.
Honestly, I don't know what the intent here is. You may find that silly of me to say, but this does make it so that your metamagic feats and such can be more useful with rods than someone using rods alone. Granted, it also makes rods better.
It is a spell but it isn't a spell on the magus list.
As Lord Pendragon is arguing that what matter is the strictest reading of the text, the strictest reading of the text don't leave room to include spells modified by metamagic feats.
From the PRD
As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up. Metamagic feats do not affect spell-like abilities.
Empahasis mine.
Applying metamagic to a epell does not create a new spell, it allows the caster to alter the effects of a spell he already knows.
To Answer your question. Shocking Grasp is listed under Magus spells in UM and, as per the CRB, applying metamagic simply allows the caster to cast that spell in a slightly different manner. It is not a "new" spell.
However, imagine a round where you use Accurate Strike to make all your attacks touch attacks, then combine that with Frostbite, Power Attack, and six natural attacks. >:)
Careful. Power Attack can't be applied to touch attacks
Careful. Power Attack can't be applied to touch attacks
Hrm...let me look at the text of Accurate Strike...
"Benefit: The magus can expend 2 points from his arcane pool as a swift action to resolve all of his melee weapon attacks until the end of his turn as melee touch attacks."
Hm..."resolved as melee touch attacks." Hrm. Might have to drop back to Arcane Accuracy and satisfy myself with a +5 to hit from int instead. I'll have to ask my DM. :p
|
|
Careful. Power Attack can't be applied to touch attacks
However, imagine a round where you use Accurate Strike to make all your attacks touch attacks, then combine that with Frostbite, Power Attack, and six natural attacks. >:)
Where does it state Power attack does not apply to touch attacks?
It's not under the touch attack rules.
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.
[...]The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
|
|
Ahhh, but don't forget that arcane pool points are irrelevant as long as you don't run out of rats, Diego.Seeing how "free" has a cost (3 arcana point at level 20, 1 arcana spent for the black blade, a fixed progression for the blade instead of customization), yes, you are missing something.
If the cost is a bargain or not is one of the arguments of this discussions, but it is not "free".
I see that you really have taken to hear my signaling a broken item :P
Ahhh, but don't forget that arcane pool points are irrelevant as long as you don't run out of rats, Diego.Seeing how "free" has a cost (3 arcana point at level 20, 1 arcana spent for the black blade, a fixed progression for the blade instead of customization), yes, you are missing something.
If the cost is a bargain or not is one of the arguments of this discussions, but it is not "free".
I see that you really have taken to hear my signaling a broken item :P
Well, you were the one who brought up the wyroot interpretation... RaI I think we can both agree that the original intent of the item was not to provide unlimited pool points for the price of a 1st level Pearl of Power and some rats. If you'd like to retract that argument I'd welcome it, but in the meantime I'm going to take your argument and point out all the logical repercussions of it :)
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
I'm about to start a magus in a friend's Eberron Kingmaker conversion. I've not tried the class before, so it ought to be interesting. I've made some likely suboptimal choices so we'll have to see what shakes out. I'm trying the staff magus archetype, so no high crit range for me.
One odd quirk: the staff magus archetype recommends the arcana that gives a shield bonus, but the archetype itself grants you a shield bonus eventually. Thought that was an odd anti-synergy.
Looks like I might as well use a wyroot staff, no reason not to have a chance to restore pool points from my normal weapon use.
Wyroot is an issue, but not a class issue.
It belongs in the same bin as Blood Money and the Staff of Wishes. A means to render a limited resource unlimited.
Agreed :)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have a Magus tip most are going to disagree with. That is that pool strike is -not- worthless.
Now put down the pitchforks and hear me out. Firstly its SU so it does not provoke AAO, and Not subject to SR/immunity. Now yes the damage is sub-par. And using spell recall for shocking grasp is pretty much always better. But it you play any archetype that gives up spell recall and has diminished casting (way to many of them do.) Then IMO its better then most ppl give it credit for.
Though on a straight magus is still pretty much junk.
Actually, Pool Strike is an extremely useful ability. While it isn't as powerful as shocking grasp, it gives you the flexibility to choose an energy type on the fly.
Also, while it's damage starts at 2d6, it does scale every three levels (so it does 5d6 at 12th and still only costs 1 point from your Arcane Pool).
Hey sorry I just got to this thread and noticed this and wanted to put my approval of pool strike. As written, pool strike is SU, like stome said, and gets all the benefits of being a supernatural ability, again like stome said. What wasn't mentioned, however, is that being a supernatural ability, pool strike isn't "fizzled out" when you cast a spell (normally if you hold the charge of a spell, and cast another spell before discharging the last, the first spell will fizzle out and be wasted).
This allows you to cast a spell, hold the charge (say, I don't know, you missed with your attack), use pool strike, and then do an attack that hits both with the weapon damage, spell damage, and pool strike damage, all while applying anything else you activated (arcane pool point, Arcane Strike, black blade pool point if your bladebound, etc.)
Wyroot is an issue, but not a class issue.
It belongs in the same bin as Blood Money and the Staff of Wishes. A means to render a limited resource unlimited.
Assuming you follow the RAW that only Heighten Spell increases a spell's level wrt Spell Recall, then I agree.
If you subscribe to the interpretation that you must pay for the spell slot rather than the spell level wrt Spell Recall, wyroot seems almost a necessity to make the magus viable. :(