I agree that taking master craftsman shouldnt apply to only one skill. The notion that you've mastered crafting enough to understand that skilled crafting requires certain orders of operations or nuances or attentions to detail then I think you should be able to apply such philosophy to any skill at building you could possibly have.
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I agree that taking master craftsman shouldnt apply to only one skill. The notion that you've mastered crafting enough to understand that skilled crafting requires certain orders of operations or nuances or attentions to detail then I think you should be able to apply such philosophy to any skill at building you could possibly have.
And this is the crux, and why I say we actually agree.
I don't want non-magic users making magic items. But Arms and Armors are under a whole different category and play by completely different rules.
Instead of allowing a loophole into all magic items, simply allow them to have access to Craft Arms and Armor with the appropriate skill or profession ranks substituting for caster level.
Which is basically how Master Craftsman works once you jump through all of the hoops, multiple feats, etc...
Truth be told, I think my favorite fix to master craftsman would be something along the lines of:
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Master Craftsman
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: Your total hit dice counts as your caster level for the purpose of taking Item Creation feats, such as Craft Magic Arms and Armor. You may replace the usual Spellcraft check with an appropriate Craft or Profession check of your choice (subject to GM discretion), or use a Spellcraft check as normal. Regardless of the skill used, you receive a +2 bonus on the check.
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The +2 basically comes very close to offsetting a lack of spellcraft as a class skill, and if you do have it as a class skill for some reason, it's not a bad bonus for a feat. As mostly meant to be taken in a chain, removing the prerequisites seems fair for earlier access to it, and all of the item creation feats are governed by level restrictions anyway.
If you want to go with an appropriate crafting check, such as only learning to work with weapons, feel free. There's no need to take master craftsman repeatedly for different skills though. If you spread your ranks out amongst Weapons, Bows, Armor, and Basketweaving, you can still use all of them if they're related to the item in question. On the other hand, you can just start putting some ranks in Spellcraft and apply that to anything you want to make, as a caster can usually do.
I dunno, seems like a start at least to me.
My version of the enchanted crafting tool would then alleviate having to take 2 additional feats when you've invested in crafting skills already and having to MAD out int. Sad that crafting mundane items makes you do that in the first place but if you built your character knowing he was getting enchanted tools eventually you could save the points for prime requisites instead.
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And your generic examples still aren't competitive.
2 feats > 1 feat. And with the 2 feats you still get significantly less.
And on top of that, your example gives zero advantage in practical terms. None. In fact it is significantly worse since clerics have access to all divine spells, and therefore don't need the higher scores to craft item...as if they wouldn't put the points in spellcraft regardless...
And you are painfully grasping with metalsmith. "Arrowheads?" Really? Really? Dude...
Seriously, stop. Or go play in Shallowsouls thread.
My version of the enchanted crafting tool would then alleviate having to take 2 additional feats when you've invested in crafting skills already and having to MAD out int. Sad that crafting mundane items makes you do that in the first place but if you built your character knowing he was getting enchanted tools eventually you could save the points for prime requisites instead.
I still would prefer this method to wholesale giving magical arms and armor craft or wondrous items to everyone... But this way it still keeps the casters involved, just on a much smaller scale.
I'll tell you the notion of rogues becoming good crafters using the enchanted tool strikes me as being no problem at all. I think of thieves also as being the kinda guys who dont have much to do around town (except steal and that always seems to go bad for our party)
I dont disagree that i'd rather have the rest of the party out doing something useful, but there are huge swathes of players who just say oh, you're crafting? We'll just hang out until you're done.
There are indeed some crafters who get upset that the rest of the party is off doing stuff while they're stuck learning spells or crafting.
And as is clear from this forum there are at least a few folks who say 'oh you're crafting? I wanna do some crafting myself now that you mention it'
I think all of these examples are legitimate styles of play.
I dont think crafting magic items is something you can jump on.
Or at least I dont think its something you should be able to just jump on which is why i'd rather turn pre existing maxxed out mundane crafting feats into magic crafting feats using enchanted tools since it shows that the characters concept is already invested in the manufacture of items, while at the same time reminding the player that having a mage around will make it easier for them, and the mage will likely still always be better at it, since, you know. It's kinda their thing.
How is role playing related to this? It sounds like your carrying around a whole truck load of bias bud. I see no reason why a character has to be a caster to properly role play a crafter. There are numerous tropes that involve wondrous crafting being accomplished by someone who doesnt cast at all outside of that.
Personal bias has no place in balancing a game and no individual fantasy is more valid than any other.
My point is really that the whole crafting system has very little to do with specific classes. There is no balance factor, so saying this or that is more balanced relative to class is completely irrelevant. The crafting system has to have internal mechanics that are balanced. There is also no point in discussing mechanics and its relation to a way of role playing. Making one class mechanically inferior in crafting is as arbitrary as making all wizards allergic to water.
And yet, if I want to make a great Dwarven smith who has mastered occult techniques and creates wonders is not feasible for no mechanically relevant reason. Its cooked into the system, but its arbitrary.
Making one class mechanically inferior in crafting is as arbitrary as making all wizards allergic to water.
If what you're saying is 'there's no good gal darn reason for such a thing and theres an entirely non arbitrary reason we dont just make every wizard allergic to water' then I think we're getting to the proper sentiment.
Making casters' baliwick into non casters' baliwick is as arbitrary as giving wizards sneak attack. There's no good gal darn reason for such a thing and I don't believe keeping sneak attack from them was arbitrary at all.
The whole point is to have squishy casters depend on non squishy bashers, and thus it is also not arbitrary to have mundane bashers depend on less conventional squishies. And everyone depends on the healer. I'm not sure why the healer needs anybody else because they get armor and swords and spells and crafting and healing... now that we're on the subject why isnt everyone playing clerics!? Somebody tell me clerics get summons. I just know they do, don't they? I haven't checked in a while but surely they can have free summoned meatshields as well...
Everyone's free to entertain these kind of things. I'm sure I could come up with some fun reason why my mage should be able to wear scale mail without a caster penalty and write 15 forums like shallowsoul on why it should become canon and letting non casters wear all that armor just really breaks the fun and is an unneccesary and dare I say prejudiced and arbitrary caster nerf.
That doesnt mean anything really.
You do what you do and hope the rest of your table's on board. Its why I don't play PFS. They have rules I don't like and those rules are non negotiable. At least at my table the things I want sway on are up for discussion. Most of the time all the sway I want is to be able to do what the books say I can do and hope that both sides of the dm screen dont get all crazy and out of control. The idea that the ancient crafting duels between the norse dwarves and elves was going on without both sides being magical is semantically provable or unprovable.
The forum is about how would you handle it. Based on my biases I handle it like I've said. There are certainly other ways and other biases. The whole reason theres even a difference between RAW and RAI is because pathfinder is written loose. There are as many houserules as there are grains of sand on the beach. Only Thor knows how many that is because he's the one who had to count them. Twice....
Because he couldnt keep his temper in check. Count us lucky such penance is not for us.
See? Even shadowsoul has an opinion. And its a completely valid one.
Your not actually arguing that "bruisers" are dependent on casters because they can craft are you? Are you certain it isn't related to the reality altering, CR destroying power?
I thought the conversation we were having was about non casters needing magic items to not be broken wussy nerfballz, so they should be able to craft magic items themselvesso they're not so dependent on casters and not so frail. Or that for color reasons they should somehow be such skilled mundane crafters than their artworks BECOME magical... Or that they need something to keep from being bored during the spellcrafters downtime.
I'm certainly not making that argument. I'm making the argument that no archetype is meant to stand alone and that I don't believe restricting any class from the things that they're restricted from was necesarily a 'we just pulled that out of our @$$ because it sounded nice' decision on behalf of the publishers.
I have a feeling there was plenty of method to the madness and every time you say 'aw that sounds like crap' you should carefully consider why the publisher published it in a way that disagrees with you.
Some people answer that question with 'because it balances better'
Some people answer that question with 'because they're stoopid. This system has been all about hating on the meatshield since 1972'
I argue simply that as published its supposed to suck for bruisers to spellcraft and I agree with the publisher that it meets my expectations in narrative, gamist, and simulationist ways. It passes my test of 'does this work for me'.
I think its as fair an argument as any.
Unless the above post was meant for shallowsoul in which case, well.
*aherm* <_<
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Show me significantly less. You don't provide proofs with your conjecture. I like reading your belligerent opinion over and over again though.
My example gave the non caster a +18(19) to make magic items.
And your non-caster needs more feats and more non-useful skill point allocation to make less things.
And since you asked for it...The fact you think the above makes a difference demonstrates a lack of understanding of the magic item rules.
"The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information)."
So you can craft basically anything if you have the spell by taking 10 if you have the spell. Your cleric knows all divine spells. All of them.
The rogue...maybe he took the minor magic feat for one...
No comparison.
Lets continue.
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
So the rogue and cleric both need a +5 for each prerequisites lacked, bringing the total to +10 (10...why is that number familiar...). Lets look at pre-requisites.
Armor
The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. Magic armor or a magic shield must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any armor or shield special abilities.
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
Creating some armor may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.
Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor).
Cleric has lots of spellcraft...craft armor...huh....
Caster levels, check.
Continuing.
Weapons.
The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the
Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
So let us sum up. It costs more that twice as many feats (remember you need a new master craftsman for each skill type) to make less items at greater difficulty.
Do you want me to keep going? I can break down the save DC issues of spreading skills to multiple sets after the feat investment if you like, or look at the difference save DCs for casters or non-casters...
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I thought the conversation we were having was about non casters needing magic items to not be broken wussy nerfballz, so they should be able to craft magic items themselvesso they're not so dependent on casters and not so frail.
This is a conversations you seem to want to have, but are only having with yourself.
Non-caster should be able, with investment, to craft weapons and armor.
Why? Two reasons.
1. Because it is a common fantasy trope.
2. For balance purposes it makes little sense to make them completely dependent on another class for a primary requirement of the class, specifically weapons and armor. You wouldn't make a wizard need to get spellbooks from fighters, would you?
That is it, that is the list.
You cant take master craftsmen multiple times. So that mundane pooch is thoroughly asterisked.
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A houserule I found of great usage to revamp the craft rule is that crafting costs full market value. You can salvage magical items of the same type for full market value when crafting (sans MW and special material costs). So it kinda becomes a convert treasure feat more then a double wealth feat unless you give a lot of trash magical items of the same sort as the crafting feat the party has.
Course craft wondrous is still pretty dang broad...
Maybe split it between none slotted, clothing, and others...oh and move amulets into forge rings maybe.
I thought the conversation we were having was about non casters needing magic items to not be broken wussy nerfballz, so they should be able to craft magic items themselvesso they're not so dependent on casters and not so frail.This is a conversations you seem to want to have, but are only having with yourself.
Non-caster should be able, with investment, to craft weapons and armor.
Why? Two reasons.
1. Because it is a common fantasy trope.
2. For balance purposes it makes little sense to make them completely dependent on another class for a primary requirement of the class, specifically weapons and armor. You wouldn't make a wizard need to get spellbooks from fighters, would you?That is it, that is the list.
I certainly agree that non casters should be able to craft weapons and armor.
magical weapons and armor on the other hand not so much.But as I've said I'm at least willing to meet a good player halfway on getting the job done.
I dont believe balance is a valid argument in favor of letting mundane crafters be magical but again. Thats just me. Not a good enough excuse in my personal book. And yet I'm still willing to meet someone halfway. I just disagree that it should be 'as easy' as someone whose bread and butter is magic.
Partially my argument against common trope or even common sense or balance is that its not a common trope. Great warriors were not great crafters, and great crafters were not great warriors... Thor didnt make his own hammer. Grendel's sword was made by (if you believe the Victor Rydberg interpretation of the snorri sturlesson version) is called Lævateinn, the Volund sword and was made by Svipdag's father who was both allegedly an elf and not a fighter or any reknown. Musashi didn't make his own swords but was arguably the best there ever was in a fight, such that often he would go into swordfights using a bokken against an opponent with a real sword. Masamune and muramasa were considered the best craftmen of their time (or all time) and i've not heard word one of them being able to actually use the things. Excalibur was not made by King Arthur. I'm hard pressed to come up with one example from tropedom where a great fighter made his own weapon. Durandal wielded by Roland, made by weiland...
No i'm arguing that people who hung out with heimdall and hephaestus had their weapons forged by dwarves and elves and the idea that those dwarves were magical crafters can neither be supported or refuted, so presuming them to have been mundane crafters is hardly a 'supportive trope' as its not confirmable.
Even if svipdag's allegedly elven father wasnt a spellcrafting crafter orvandils wife had irrefutable magical properties. Not only that but she's also the one who told svipdag that he should take the blade across the rainbow bridge to meet his destined bride the goddess Freyja.. So clearly she had both intent to get her boy into Freyjas arms and magical aptitude and there's no telling if she was or was not involved in crafting of the blade in the first place but clearly his parents had designs on his future in godland.
Theres every reason to presume spellcraft was involved in the creation of the only weapon ever to defeat mjolnir in battle.
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I would argue that Dwarves actually generally were not presumed "magical" as much as they were presumed master craftsmen capable of molding materials and of working with special materials.
Elves I'll give you, Dwarves, nope.
Not to mention, even in the examples given by you the swords were produced by mundane master craftsmen.
I'm not going to pretend that muramasa was a mage but I'm also not going to pretend his sword is a +5 vorpal leafbane. Excalibur was unquestionable magical but there is no reference to who actually made it, though merlin being a wizard means its clear that casters were a part of the world. Once again no reason to presume it was made by mundane hands. Mjolnir was allegedly made by elves.
And odin needed to be taught what runes (magical?) were inscribed on the spear, meaning he clearly didnt make it himself. So we dont even know who made that thing. Once again I dont hear a single example so far of a mundane crafter making a magical weapon against a torrent of contrary examples.
My references range all over. Durandal is french, excalibur english, mjolnir norse, several historical japanese figures that can only be mundane.
Kusanagi appears to have been crafted by the innards of a magical beast. Yeah. Great wiki article. still supports that magic weapons crafted by mundane is a vast exception, not the rule, and not common. Even looking at this wiki I havent found a magic weapon with a mundane source yet. Your one chosen Weiland the Smith for Gram references that that one single smith made the french Durandal and the english Caliburn (excalibur) so geez. If your trope is based off that one man he appears to have crafted every wonderful weapon from every culture period.
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And odin needed to be taught what runes (magical?) were inscribed on the spear, meaning he clearly didnt make it himself. So we dont even know who made that thing. Once again I dont hear a single example so far of a mundane crafter making a magical weapon against a torrent of contrary examples.
My references range all over. Durandal is french, excalibur english, mjolnir norse, several historical japanese figures that can only be mundane.
You ignored Gran. And you are arguing mundane for convenience of your arguments sake. You know that the "Uber weaspon forged by X blacksmith" or crafted from "X" material that imbues it is a trope.
Gáe Bulga, likely origin of Odin's spear, made of a sea monster.
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Kusanagi appears to have been crafted by the innards of a magical beast. Yeah. Great wiki article. still supports that magic weapons crafted by mundane is a vast exception, not the rule, and not common
Crafting with magical materials isn't casting, and that is most definitely a trope. If you want to argue material components, that is already included in the costs.
Again, I'm not looking for spell added or spell completion, but there is a long history of mundane crafter making magical materials into weapons.
The long history of mundane crafters making magical materials is the one i'm having trouble finding, even in the wiki you provided. The weiland article is the only one I've found that suggests a mundane crafter, but that article beats up its own credibility by saying he made excalibur and durandal too. And as I said before the weiland 'volund' sword from the earliest published text as wielded by beowulf was documented not to have been made by weiland himself (yet another sword this article lets him take credit for) but svipdags father orvandil.
Requires the cost of making the masterwork component, 3 levels of wizard, the cost of the spell. A commoner could do the same without magic.
It's not that a commoner could, it's that a 3rd level wizard with 5000xp with one rank in craft whatever creates a masterwork item quicker than the 9th level master blacksmith with 75000xp and a much larger investment.