But without a map, you don't move square by square avoiding AoOs, you say, "can I avoid AoOs?" and the answer is yes or no. So, it's not meaningful. Though the acrobatics check is almost certainly too high to bother trying ;)
It is still meaningful. And no it isn't.
Can I move to the other side without provoking AoOs to get into a Flank Position? No? I want to try to use Acrobatics to get over there. I have to beat the 1st guy's CMD, the 2nd guys CMD +2, and the third guys CMD +4. Lets, I'm a Rogue, I have a +4 Dex, +1 Rank, +3 Trained, thats a +8 on the Roll (1st level). I probably need a say 6 on the first (CMD 14 for an Orc), 8 on the second roll, 10 on the third roll. I'm not going to move at full speed, because the +10 on the Check is probably undoable. But that's still 15' into the room. Unless your room is huge, that should get me to a position where I want to be.
OR
In 4e, I use a Move Power to shift and avoid AoOs. Or "Using the Power of the Rat I move into the room deftly and strike the Orc with the sinister looking scar"
4e in some cases makes it easier to go Mapless. Have you never had someone use Acrobatics/Tumble? No? K, so on top of that Feat Chain, we've killed part of a Skill now.
In 4e, though, that ability to push enemies 5' is one of two at-will powers you have. It's a huge percentage of your character choices. But the effect is still insignificant. Who cares if you moved the guy 5' unless you're 5' from something dangerous?
Sure. Tide of Iron is a At Will I like my Sword & Boards to have. When do I use it? To break into rooms, something I'd use Bull Rush for.
The Door to the room opens, and the enemy starts to pour in. I charge the enemy and push them out of the room, so we can close & barricade the room. That sort of thing never happens?
With a map, you plan out every square of movement, so every square is important. You have to consider if enemies are on this side of you or that, where corners are. Without a map, it's different. You just go places. You don't worry about individual squares of distance, just distance over all. A 5' push is irrelevant 90% of the time, even though it's, at level 1, for example, 25% of your character's powers, and probably the thing you're doing more than 40% of the time.
I agree. With a Map you plan out every square of movement, so every square is important. You have to consider if enemies are on this side of you or that, where corners are.
I can't/won't disagree with that. I'm just saying, 4e isn't a big jump from PF that you think it is.
And you're not paying attention to their significance from a character building standpoint.
I am paying attention. I just don't think you're giving enough attention to PF abilities that also work on that standpoint.
I could probably go on for a while, but I guess it comes down to this: I don't find characters or their abilities interesting in 4e at all, so the only thing left that's cool is the tactical movement and movement powers.
How do you play a Melee character in PF then? I want to move into a position to attack multiple people. I want to gain flank. I want to put myself between them and the Casters in the back. That's what those "Powers" in 4e allow you to do more easily. I guess, do you just ignore the vast amount of Tactical Combat in PF? I am not saying 4e isn't a tactical game. I'm just saying so is PF.
I just don't see all the movement powers you're talking about, sorry.
Monk/Barbarian's Extra Move, Racial difference in movements, or any spell used to increase speed
Ranger's Woodland StrideAcrobatics to move around Threatened areas
Team Work Feat - Escape Route, TW Swap Places
Charge Function in general (we'll put Bull Rush here)
Ride By Attack (Fly by Attack, I'm sure there's a melee ground version)
we'll add tactical positioning to Flank too
and those are just the ones I've seen in my last PF Gaming Session
Again, PF is a Tactical Combat game.
Again, I'm on the side of "PF is a Tactical Game that really should be used with a Map" and not the side of "4e shouldn't need a Map".
I guess I have come to the conclusion that I think neither is hard to run without a map, but that I feel like there is no value in running 4e without the map.
Only because the way you want to play 4e isn't the way you want to play PF. You said you ONLY find the Movement Powers interesting in 4e. What do you find interesting in PF? The RP element is the exact same mechanic.
To put a different way, "When I go to McDonald's I like their Chicken Sandwich, but when I don't like going to Burger King, because I don't like their Burgers."
They are both fast food joints, that have Burgers & Chicken Sandwiches. What you seem unwilling to admit, is you don't like McDonald's Burgers either. And I'm saying, "Why don't you just have the Chicken Sandwich if we're going to Burger King".
4e in some cases makes it easier to go Mapless. Have you never had someone use Acrobatics/Tumble?
Yes, I have. And I know how to calculate it. I was joking about how CMD scales faster than Acrobatics, so by midlevel, it's nearly impossible.
Sure. Tide of Iron is a At Will I like my Sword & Boards to have. When do I use it? To break into rooms, something I'd use Bull Rush for.
The Door to the room opens, and the enemy starts to pour in. I charge the enemy and push them out of the room, so we can close & barricade the room. That sort of thing never happens?
That would work the same without a map--why would you need a map for that?
How do you play a Melee character in PF then? I want to move into a position to attack multiple people. I want to gain flank. I want to put myself between them and the Casters in the back.
All of those things are done as simply as you just said them.
You: "I want to move into a position to attack multiple people."
GM response 1: "Yeah, well the orcs are side by side, so no problem"
GM response 2: "There aren't any enemies close enough together for that"
GM response 3: "You'd need to get past the front line guys there because the archers are clumped, but you'll provoke to get there."
Etc.
Monk/Barbarian's Extra Move, Racial difference in movements, or any spell used to increase speed
When using actual feet instead of squares, movement rates are even easier to deal with.
Ranger's Woodland Stride
Acrobatics to move around Threatened areas
Easy to handle. No need for a map.
Team Work Feat - Escape Route, TW Swap Places
I'll have to be honest--never saw anyone take those team work feats. They look pretty pointless.
Charge Function in general (we'll put Bull Rush here)
Charge is a long range move+attack. How is this hard? It's easier without a map because straight lines are actually straight.
Ride By Attack (Fly by Attack, I'm sure there's a melee ground version)
Spring Attack. Honestly, once again, nobody I've played with has ever been interested in mounted combat.
we'll add tactical positioning to Flank too
"I want to flank them."
"Ok (and it will require you to do X)"Only because the way you want to play 4e isn't the way you want to play PF. You said you ONLY find the Movement Powers interesting in 4e. What do you find interesting in PF? The RP element is the exact same mechanic.
I don't know how to answer that in a way that will satisfy you. I find that 4e has minis and maps built into it, while Pathfinder doesn't. You don't agree, but I don't see why.
And Pathfinder is not really my first choice of RPG (that's Savage Worlds--also without minis), but I like running it more than 4e (as I've said, I'd PC either, happily).
To put a different way, "When I go to McDonald's I like their Chicken Sandwich, but when I don't like going to Burger King, because I don't like their Burgers."
Try it this way (this is all hypothetical, by the way, in real life I don't love either place):
McDonalds is known for their chicken nuggets. Burger King is known for their burgers. McDonalds has burgers but they aren't that great because it's really all about the chicken nuggets, and Burger King has sub-par chicken nuggets because all their focus is on burgers--and they're really good burgers.
I don't like burgers, so I don't like going to Burger King because their chicken sucks, but I like McDonalds because their chicken is good.
To get back on topic, I definitely prefer a layout with representations individuals. Does it have to be a grid with mapped out lines. Nope. Does it have to be miniatures and not tokens. Nope. But I'd prefer not to have it all going on in the head of someone else.
If you can't imagine the danger of that happening, I'd suggesting looking up activities like describing how to make a peanut-butter sandwich. People are told to follow the directions given, literally, often to very humorous and messy results.
Basically, while listen is great, I would prefer to activate multiple parts of my brain (sight, hearing, and tactical manipulation). And sure this can harm the imagined idea some have, but you know that everyone is starting from a similar idea when you are using a representative.
I remember one of the best scenes in a game I was running involved a ruined church (I was using a megabloks set for it), a large red dragon (used some yugioh dragon toy), and a halfling monk (miniature for the character). The dragon was about to be knocked unconscious and attempted to fly away. The halfling monk made an AoO, touch->grapple and stopped the dragon (back in the 3.5 days when this was possible). I described it as the dragon snaking into the air, flying for the hole in the ceiling, when *YANK* the halfling snatches the end of the tail, braced on a rock and pulled it down. We had miniatures, we could all see the lay out and the scene described built off of that. I don't think miniatures and game boards took away from that experience one bit.
When using actual feet instead of squares, movement rates are even easier to deal with.
Really? Since 1st Ed, 5 Feet = 1 Sqaure
You're Arguement is "The Math is too tough to go the other way"
Really? <sigh>
You never wondered why EVERYTHING is in 5' increments, and why you don't see 27' speeds, or 7.5' steps? Its not just "oh, we felt like doing it this way". Its because it was meant to translate onto a map easily. But I'm sure you already knew that.
I find that 4e has minis and maps built into it, while Pathfinder doesn't. You don't agree, but I don't see why.
CR Pg 192
As a general rule, distance is measured assuming 1 square equals 5 feet.
That's from the Pathfinder CR. The Section goes on to talk about Diagonal movement, closest creature, moving through a Square, Terrain & Obstacles (and how movement effects like squeezing cost movement listed in squares). Creature sizing on the next page, Combat modifiers (to determine cover, choose any corner of your square...), Concealment....
These would make it seem a Map & Minis might be used at some point in game play.
The CR Graphics on pgs 181, 192, 194, 196, or 215 also seem to indicate a Map & Minis might be used?
Given half the combat section seems to be in "Square" Format, you end up "doing the math" anyway. You might not think of it that way, but you are.
PF IS built with Minis/Map in mind, otherwise why would they devote the Word Count & Visual Aids to it.
Again, I'm not saying "You can't play PF without a Map". All I'm saying is "IF you can play PF without a Map, 4e isn't really any harder to do without one either". Again, personally, I think they're both too hard without chopping sections of both out, and then, you're not really playing it anymore anyway.
The argument seems to be "These Abilities no one in my group uses for PF are more prevalent in 4e" and I guess I can't argue with that. Because you're group does it that way. You're making it seem like you're being "Forced" to take abilities in 4e that you/your group are not using in PF (even though they exist there too). All I'm saying, is IF you choose to play one version one way, you can make the same choice in the other one too. You don't want to, and that's fine, but some other group might. And if they do, it really isn't harder to do 4e than PF.
You never wondered why EVERYTHING is in 5' increments, and why you don't see 27' speeds, or 7.5' steps? Its not just "oh, we felt like doing it this way". Its because it was meant to translate onto a map easily. But I'm sure you already knew that.
Even several rules say so.
For example, Half Elf alternate favored class bonus:
Alchemist: Add +1 foot to the range increment of the alchemist's thrown splash weapons (including the alchemist's bombs). This option has no effect unless the alchemist has selected it 5 times (or another increment of 5); a range increment of 24 feet is effectively the same as a range increment of 20 feet.
Cavalier Add +1 foot to the cavalier's mount's base speed. This option has no effect unless the cavalier has selected it 5 times (or another increment of 5); a speed of 54 feet is effectively a speed of 50 feet, for example
Paladin Add +1 foot to the size of all the paladin's aura class features. This option has no effect unless the paladin has selected it 5 times (or another increment of 5); an aura of 14 feet is effectively the same as a 10-foot aura, for example.
For simple battles consisting of one to three combatants with little to no real terrain obstacles (such as in a small room with no furniture) I prefer to go without. By the time you get it set up the battle would likely already have been finished.
However, for anything more complex then that I think the mat is a must-have. You miss too much and confusion easily ensues otherwise. It's great to know where everyone is at in relation to everyone AND EVERYTHING else at nothing more than a 10th-of-a-second glance.