Goblin Squad Member
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I actually really didn't like the vehicle-based stuff in WoW, and would just as soon not base Formation/Unit Combat on that model. I expect it to be like Ryan originally described it, where each person in the Unit is expected to do what they need to do in order to maintain formation.
I enjoyed the vehicle based stuff in WoW:)
Ah to drive around in tanks...I especially enjoyed bombing runs and manning turrets.
Then again I also played a Mage...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I enjoyed the vehicle based stuff in WoW:)
When I originally mentioned vehicles as an analogy I was thinking more like DUST 514 (which begins free open beta today on the PS3, the skill system is like EVE which is what PFO's skill system is loosely based off of). Basically you hop on and become part of the bigger object. It isn't a 100% accurate analogy though because with the system I proposed in the OP the only thing taken away from you while in formation is your movement, everything else can still be done by your character. Leaving a formation should be as simple as moving, to allow people to still have freedom to move when they have to and not remain in formation. They can then reform or whatever they need to do to adapt to the situation.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yeah you would have to be able to move out of it unless the leader could dynamically change the formation on the fly.
Ie
Soldier 1 "Look out he's casting a fireball!" "
Soldier 2 "Well I hope you have a good reflex save since we are in formation..."
I think the key thing is making the gameplay interesting for the soldiers maybe in addition to just attacking targets and defending have some sort of mini-game going on that the players need to interact with in order to hold the formation together.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A Fireball spell is just a small bead that travels from the caster to the target and explodes when it reaches its destination or is intercepted. You could conceivably stop most of the effects of a Fireball spell with a phalanx formation, though there aren't really rules in PnP Pathfinder for that.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@Dakcenturi, I think the plan is to actually allow a significant boost to defense against things like Fireballs as a result of staying in formation, rather than breaking it.
Personally I think it would be a lot more interactive for the players if they had to actually respond and modify their formation to account for certain actions rather than just getting a bonus against everything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some follow-ups:
1) In terms of resource utilization (e.g. "server loads"), I think it's best not for us to speculate here but leave those considerations in the hands of the Engineers who are actualy qualified with understanding and tasked with managing those technical considerations. Personaly I don't think server load will be a major consideration here..it almost never is...more important is probably the quantity of information that the server has to communicate to every single client so that they can render thier screens on a given pulse...but again, lets let the guys who understand the technical limitations of the engine and thier own resources handle what is/isn't workable there.
2) I don't think taking away control from individual players is going to be a FUN mechanic for most...and kinda seems to defeat the basic gameplay goal of the system which is to adjucate how well those individual players are working together and reward them for it. That's why I favor a system that never takes over control of an individual players movements/actions from them but simply gives them an indicator/prompt of where the system/commander expects them to be in order to achieve a bonus and lets them worry about trying to get there/do that as part of the gameplay.
3) I actualy do like Mbando's suggestion about individual initiative and inherent bonuses given to certain formations rather then just following the formation leaders prompt. That would be better, IMO, if the system can handle it. I do think it is important, given the venue, that some visual queue be provided by the interface as to where the formation leader expects the individuals to be (whether or not that's tied to the actual bonus). So that while the system doesn't automaticaly do things for the player...it at least gives them an indicator of what (according to the formation leader) they are SUPPOSED to be doing...thus not requiring the level of skill and percision of a real life drill team to judge where they are supposed to be...if the players can go beyond that and make intuitive decisions that improve upon formation leaders judgement by individual initiative...then great, but at least there is some form of guidence for those who can't.
4) I do expect that formations will provide a significant combat advantage for those who can keep them, as I believe is the design content and should be the case. However, situationaly I expect there will be places (example heavy woods) where it would be impossible/impractical to keep the kind of close knit formations that would provide significant bonuses in combat. I also expect that there will be types of attacks (e.g. area of effect attacks) that will pose a greater danger to tight packed formations then lose troops...even if formations have SOME defences against them. Lose troops, if they can act with SOME degree of response to a general plan actualy DID have some important roles (e.g. skirmishers) on the ancient battlefields...I would think the same would be true for PFO....and even though acting as part of a formation might be significantly more beneficial then an individual acting on thier own, that individual is still likely to contribute SOME measure of combat power to thier side. Heck, I expect that given a large enough disparity in numbers, an undisciplined mob would likely wear down a trained formation...it's just that disparity might end up being pretty darn high.
FWIW...This is coming from a guy who is planning on playing a rank & file grunt...not a formation leader.
P.S. Being part of a vehicle CAN be fun...but not really in GENRE for what people are expecting of combat here... if this were a space game, then that might be different.
YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Uthreth, Golarion is a world filled with magic. It's to be expected that armies have developed means of countering magic in order to be able to operate effectively. This is the gist of Ryan's response to an earlier concern similar to yours.
Yup, though I do expect certain types of attacks (magical or otherwise) do provide a greater threat to tightly packed formations...part of the rock/paper/scissors thing of massed combat.
So tight packed formation = best combat power but greater risk of AoE...alot better then the same number of individuals in a tight packed space out of formation...but still at greater risk then being so spread out that only 1 guy would be in area of effect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... though I do expect certain types of attacks (magical or otherwise) do provide a greater threat to tightly packed formations...part of the rock/paper/scissors thing of massed combat.
I expect it will take a formation that includes Wizards to provide the kind of massed fire that will be really dangerous for another formation. Among other things, the attackers will need extra Wizards to work to take down the magical defenses of the defending formation. I really don't expect a single Wizard to be a thread to a formation, regardless of his spells - well, at least not a threat to the entire formation :)
So if the formation indication graphic, that appears on the ground, were to show each soldier where they need to be, and when the leader moves, the graphic moves as well. The individual soldiers would be totally free to move wherever, whenever they wish. But to gain the formation bonus they would need to remain within the area indicated by the graphic. I think the bonus needs to scale depending on how many soldiers are within their designated area. What I mean by that is say there are 10 soldiers in the unit. If 9 are in position the formation would receive 90% of the bonus, 8 giving 80% etc.. That way it's not like 1 soldier out of place renders the unit ineffective.
Some units, take bowmen for instance, couldn't operate in tightly packed formations. I don't recall the name of these formations so I'll just refer to them as loose formations. Any formation can be tightly packed, or loose. Maybe the leader can switch between the two depending on the situation and the graphic would just flash once showing the soldiers that they need to switch positions.
I realize that this idea of having a onscreen graphic isn't one that everyone accepts. The Devs may well hate the idea. Hopefully they will clue us into how they are thinking mass combat might be set up, then we will know :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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... though I do expect certain types of attacks (magical or otherwise) do provide a greater threat to tightly packed formations...part of the rock/paper/scissors thing of massed combat.I expect it will take a formation that includes Wizards to provide the kind of massed fire that will be really dangerous for another formation. Among other things, the attackers will need extra Wizards to work to take down the magical defenses of the defending formation. I really don't expect a single Wizard to be a thread to a formation, regardless of his spells - well, at least not a threat to the entire formation :)
I expect the degree of damage will be dependant on the formation and the order executed. So something like a good formation for defending against AoE spells (has other downsides) executing the defensive order well takes 0 damage or maybe raises the spell resist really high and provides really high DR.
A bad formation for spell AoE's (has other advantages) or not executing it's order well maybe each individual takes 5-10 percent damage that they ordinarly would.
I don't think you ever want to get into the situation that formations are INVULNERABLE to non-formation attacks simply by virtue of being some sort of formation. That tilts the scales too much. What I think you want is a very significant advantage offered by staying in formation but still capable of suffering some damage and some potential attrition to individual attacks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think you ever want to get into the situation that formations are INVULNERABLE to non-formation attacks simply by virtue of being some sort of formation. That tilts the scales too much.
I agree, and I think the scale you mentioned above is pretty appropriate - that is, about a 90% to 95% reduction in the worst case.
Still, that's going to have to be a pretty brave Wizard to stand there all by his lonesome and start lobbing Fireballs at a Formation :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ie
Soldier 1 "Look out he's casting a fireball!" "
Soldier 2 "Well I hope you have a good reflex save since we are in formation..."
In PnP rules, improved cover gives +4 reflex and improved evasion. It is not unreasonable to classify a shield wall as a solid wall (that's the point of it). A tower shield wall could then be considered to give improved cover. Being in the 3rd row (shield wall + soft cover from two packed rows) could also be considered improved cover.
Additionally, in PnP rules a tower shield wall can move half speed and end each turn in total cover.
so.. there is some support for formation fighting already in the rules!
Add in bard/paladin type morale boosts for officers and a bonus vs fear (or be inspired by AD&D morale rules) and it starts to look like something. Throw in versions of bless, protection from [x], resist energy, globe of invulnrability and other spells with a range of 'your unit' and suddenly formations are a very safe place to be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You would want different formations for a wizardly/sorcerous battery, but those could be the same as for archers.
Formations should also be useful for dungeon crawls, too.We used to always put fighters forward, followed by caster and rogue (rogue at the ready to either scout ahead or flank an opponent). Last would come the heavily armored cleric.
But the size of a formation, the number of member will likely match the size of a party adventuring. However formations could scale up with multiple party sized subformations.
I would hope the formation comanders would be able to split their UI so they can position their formation/command UI on the second monitor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unintentional bump. I have been reading up on the large scale battles and formation combat and am pretty jazzed about it. Unlike Avari3 (who is a negative Nelly....c'mon Avari3, this sounds really awesome!) I am excited to see how this will be implemented. I am especially interested to see the number of skills allotted to conducting formation combat.
The skill tree should be vast. Leading even a small unit in Drill and Ceremony (called D&C) requires study and practice. Anyone who has gone through real military training knows this to be true. If you think otherwise try it with some Small Group Leader or Drill Instructor staring menacingly at you while scribbling notes on his/her clipboard. You know what to do, but you sometimes screw it up anyway. Arrgghh!
There are many facing movements, start and stop commands, speed commands, movement commands, combat commands. I was normally an admin guy, and the infantry Soldiers have a vast number of commands unique to infantry movements and combat. Different services have different commands in their D&C regulations and training manuals (for example, the Navy uses "left oblique" and "right oblique" to move a unit forward at a 45 degree angle. The Army accomplishes the same thing but uses different commands).
I look forward to the depth of the skill tree to see what commands are available and what bonuses are allocated to the unit leaders and the Soldiers within the unit. Anyone who thinks being part of a formation in a combat scenario is dull has never been in a real combat formation. I think it will be exciting to be in one when all hell is breaking loose on the battlefield and your little unit is held tightly together, ready for action.
Imagine being part of a large rabble army. You look across the battlefield to see a small unit emerge from the distant tree line, marching in perfect unison. You can hear the commander calling orders and the unit changes shape flawlessly as they creep towards your motley "army". As the formation draws nearer you prepare to unleash volleys of arrows, but the commander calls an unintelligible command and all shields come up, the unit slows a bit but still advances and your arrows bounce off harmlessly. Your troops get a bit nervous but hide their fear in liquor and insults. The unit advances, now within a few hundred feet. Another voilley of arrows. A few seem to penetrate the formation, but no one drops out. You think you hear a cleric speaking in an arcane tongue.
You wish you had cavalry, but at least you and your two Lieutenants have horses in case you have to retreat. These guys are serious. You outnumber them at least 5 to 1, maybe more, but they are very disciplined and are closing steadily. Two hundred feet. You can see them, their feet stomping in unison. You can hear their rhythmic steps, the clatter or shield and armor. One hundred feet. You can make out details, see their gleaming weapons, hear their whispered cadence.
You charge. You have the numbers but as your group prepares to hit the tight formation their shield wall comes up with spears pointing towards you. Missile weapons fly out of the formation and a few spells fell several of your men from yards away. Your men crash onto the shield and crumble like rag dolls. The shield wall stands with spear and sword jutting out with machinelike efficiency hacking your ill-equipped men to pieces. Your men try to breach the shield wall and fight hard, but the professional training these opposing Soldiers have experienced holds the unit tightly together. Your little army slowly melts into the ground in front of the formation.
You turn to your Lieutenants and decide now would be a good time to run. You feel a little guilty about getting all of your men killed, but you learned an important lesson. Next time, invest in some field training so you can lead your troops more effectively. There was no way your ragtag army was ever going to break that unit even though you outnumbered them 5 to 1.
A painful lesson.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Formations should also be useful for dungeon crawls, too.We used to always put fighters forward, followed by caster and rogue (rogue at the ready to either scout ahead or flank an opponent). Last would come the heavily armored cleric.
In one group I was in we would hide about 200m away while the rogue did his stuff.
The rogue character was well built and had all the right skills.
The player on the other hand:
DM: The large ornate doors seem to be made of wood, in the center of the door is a brass knob cast in the shape of a grotesque demon, the knob is ancient and seems to have singe marks around it.
Rogue: I walk up and turn the knob.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In one group I was in we would hide about 200m away while the rogue did his stuff.The rogue character was well built and had all the right skills.
The player on the other hand:
DM: The large ornate doors seem to be made of wood, in the center of the door is a brass knob cast in the shape of a grotesque demon, the knob is ancient and seems to have singe marks around it.
Rogue: I walk up and turn the knob.
/facepalm
Yup, been in those situations. Just gotta hope he makes his Reflex save.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I enjoyed the vehicle based stuff in WoW:)
Driving vehicles and manning guns was the easiest way for a battleground noob to earn honor without it being a total gank fest. There may well be a way to incorporate vehicles into future combat in PFO, but since it will be uninstanced, you had better have the skills to drive the "warwagon" or call cadence to move the giant battering ram into place.
The skills will have to come before the horse or the cart.
Unintentional bump. I have been reading up on the large scale battles and formation combat and am pretty jazzed about it. Unlike Avari3 (who is a negative Nelly....c'mon Avari3, this sounds really awesome!) I am excited to see how this will be implemented. I am especially interested to see the number of skills allotted to conducting formation combat.
The skill tree should be vast. Leading even a small unit in Drill and Ceremony (called D&C) requires study and practice. Anyone who has gone through real military training knows this to be true. If you think otherwise try it with some Small Group Leader or Drill Instructor staring menacingly at you while scribbling notes on his/her clipboard. You know what to do, but you sometimes screw it up anyway. Arrgghh!
There are many facing movements, start and stop commands, speed commands, movement commands, combat commands. I was normally an admin guy, and the infantry Soldiers have a vast number of commands unique to infantry movements and combat. Different services have different commands in their D&C regulations and training manuals (for example, the Navy uses "left oblique" and "right oblique" to move a unit forward at a 45 degree angle. The Army accomplishes the same thing but uses different commands).
I look forward to the depth of the skill tree to see what commands are available and what bonuses are allocated to the unit leaders and the Soldiers within the unit. Anyone who thinks being part of a formation in a combat scenario is dull has never been in a real combat formation. I think it will be exciting to be in one when all hell is breaking loose on the battlefield and your little unit is held tightly together, ready for action.
Imagine being part of a large rabble army. You look across the battlefield to see a small unit emerge from the distant tree line, marching in perfect unison. You can hear the commander calling orders and the unit changes shape flawlessly as they creep towards your motley "army". As the formation draws nearer you prepare to...
I think you would like the formation system mentioned in another thread. It allowed for individual members of a formation to see their place within the formation as well as where and when they should move, fight etc.. It also allowed formation leaders see and control the formation while maintaining communication with the commanders who are overseeing the battle from good vantage points. It's a rough system but, to me, seemed a good place to work from to make unit combat fun and doable. I'll look up the thread and post a link here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I had no idea what formation combat could be like, but this seems really cool. I hope it's really similar and simple in PFO also with huge bonuses. :)
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