|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Definition: 'money without intrinsic value'
No real point in minting it if it has no value and cant be traded other than to devalue existing funds by spreading the worth (x) through(x/x+n). In the end, this will confirm the USA is a worthless and unsustainable economy as its currency devalues.
There is a very real point to fiat money. For one, trust has real economic value, unless you want to ignore everything since Menger. For another, fiat money can be managed; others can't. All it takes is a gold rush and your gold-backed money gets uncontrollable price inflation -- or even worse, the subjective value produced by your economic activities grows at a rate outpacing the mining of gold, ultimately resulting in a deflationary trap that sends you into an uncontrollable recessionary spiral.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is a very real point to fiat money. For one, trust has real economic value, unless you want to ignore everything since Menger. For another, fiat money can be managed; others can't. All it takes is a gold rush and your gold-back money gets uncontrollable price inflation -- or even worse, the subjective value produced by your economic activities grows at a rate outpacing the mining of gold, ultimately resulting in a deflationary trap that sends you into an uncontrollable recessionary spiral.
Economic failure of the US is a certainty. Thus no trust exists.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Definition: 'money without intrinsic value'
Because gold, silver or shells have some sort of magical quality called 'intrinsic value' imbued into it by gods.
Economic failure of the US is a certainty. Thus no trust exists.
People are begging to loan us money. The record-low interest rates on Treasury bills are evidence that multi-trillion-dollar trust exists. Therefore economic failure of the US is so far from a certainty as to be an extreme minority view.
Your move.
|
|
Economic failure of the US is a certainty. Thus no trust exists.People are begging to loan us money. The record-low interest rates on Treasury bills are evidence that multi-trillion-dollar trust exists. Therefore economic failure of the US is so far from a certainty as to be an extreme minority view.
Your move.
I have requested Deutsche Bank create a company and loan it 2.5 trillion dollars per year - to build 1 million of Siemens 6 megawatt wind turbines in the North Sea to sell electricity to Europe. The funds available to loan to you that you speak of are about to dry up.
|
'money without intrinsic value'
What is value? What has value?
What is "intrinsic" value? What has "intrinsic" value? Why do those things have "intrinsic" value, when other things do not?
My argument? Only two things have value: time and pork bellies. Anything else with "value" only has value because humans have imbued it with value.
Economic failure of the US is a certainty. Thus no trust exists.
Yes, but not for the reasons you imply.
You can shout at clouds until they rain, but it doesn't mean your shouting caused it.
|
|
Which of these covers the definition of Fiat Money?
1. Your Pig is worth 12 Chickens. The King shows up and takes your Pig and gives you a piece of paper he says is worth one Pig. When you go to the King to trade the paper for 12 chickens the King tells you to bugger off because his 12 chickens are worth a Pig, not some stupid piece of paper.
2. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. The King shows up and takes your Pig leaving you with the words Volunteer Pig washer wanted.
3. Your Pig is worth 12 chickens. The King shows up and taking your Pig, leaves a piece of Paper with a Pig Drawn on it and the words beneath it that say: THIS IS A PIG.
4. Your Pig is worth 12 chickens. The King shows up and takes your pig leaving a piece of paper saying one pig equals six chickens.
5. Your Pig is worth 12 Chickens. The King shows up with three barrels and puts your pig under one of them, shuffles the barrels about and then walks off with the pig leaving you to wonder how many Pigs are in the barrels.
6. Your Pig is worth 12 chickens. The King shows up and takes your Pig. The King gives you a note saying 'this is a Pig until Midnight'.
7. Your Pig is worth 12 Chickens. The King shows up and tells you you owe him 12 chickens for looking after pigs.
Fiat Money is a social luxury: It is a highly desirable and efficient economic tool, but it requires a strong and reliable State to sustain it, and an economy that trusts said State to honour its compromises.
I currently see no structural problem in the world, or in the US, that would cause Fiat Money to become untenable any time soon.
There is a saying that goes "Throughout the centuries, if there is one thing you see every generation, is people proclaiming either the End of the World or the Fall of the Church". Maybe we should add "World Economic Collapse" to that list.
In any case, any currency that has been used after we got out of bartering (which is very nice and all, but terribly wasteful and inneficient, as well as forcing societies into very basic forms of labor) has in one way or another depended on trust.
All money is fiat, since loot is completely GM fiat.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, that's an i, not an l. I was wondering why there was any question on this.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Are we talking one of the spiffy new 500s, or a classic model? If the former, Fiat money runs around $15k these days.
Didn't they end up buying one of the Big Three? Or was that some other Italian automobile company?
Anyway, although I am a Marxist, I have to admit that economics isn't my strong suit. But, from what I understand, the only things keeping our economy going are Chinese ghost cities and trillion dollar coins.
And people wonder why I think life's a big joke.
And people wonder why I think life's a big joke.
It ain't?! Say it ain't so!
It ain't so.
And people wonder why I think life's a big joke.
"No reason to get excited,
There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke.But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate,
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is if I was at superposition.Economic failure of the US is a certainty. Thus no trust exists.Yes, but not for the reasons you imply.
You can shout at clouds until they rain, but it doesn't mean your shouting caused it.
No, you are claiming a very specific position.
Yes, the US economy will eventually falter and be replaced by someone else, just like the Dutch and British economies did. It's not because of our currency though, but because everything has a life cycle and unless some factors change/reset the cycle, it always comes to completion.
You're shouting at clouds, not spreading enlightenment.
It's alright, Comrade Dingo. I like it when you shout at clouds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dingo's my cloud to shout at.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
8. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. The king starts breeding GMO chigs in a field next to yours, and genetic material from the chigs spreads to your pig. The king then sues you for infringing on patented material because your pig bears a litter of chigs.
9. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. The king decides that the entire world is in danger of climate change and instutes a pig and trade market, where you have to pay a dozen chickens to be allowed to have a pig.
10. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. The king's royal pig farming company is in danger of going under because of severe mismanagement, so the king taxes you seven chickens for a bailout for the owners of the royal pig farm.
11. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. The king's pig credit institute is failing, and everyone who has money in it risks losing the pigs they have there. The king taxes you eight chickens to bail out the owners of the institute, but studiously avoids giving money to the people with pigs in the institute.
12. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. The king is worried about pig terrorism, so he hires half a million people to physically molest the pigs when the pigs need to use the roads of the kingdom.
13. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. The king has taxed you 48 chickens and 30 pigs in total to fight against the evil Oink bin Pig, so he sends special butchers to kill bin Pig in another country. He then refuses to show any pictures of the dead bin Pig and burns the body before dumping it at sea so it's certain that nobody can check the body. He still claims this was a great victory, but, uh, the taxes stay just as high...
Okay, I will stop now.
14. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. The king issues a tax of 12 chicken eggs for each pig owned paid once a day because he likes omelettes.
15. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. Foxes stole five chickens at night so the king demands that you give up legs and tail from your pig as you cannot support the pig's full worth.
16. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. The king makes cows sole legal tender in the kingdom.
17. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. You discover that bacon-egg sandwiches are delicious.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Eat well and go broke, or grow wealthy and starve?
Eat well and go broke, or grow wealthy and starve?
17b. You neighbor's pig was worth 12 chickens. Bacon-egg sandwiches are still delicious.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
18.- Your pig is worth 12 chicken. You give the pig in exchange for a house, and promise to bring 29 more pigs within the next 10 years. The landlord makes sausages from your pig, and sells them to sausage certifiers. They, in turn, open the sausages and mix the meat with lamb, cow, and some fish, and re-sell them as "pig derivatives". Foreign butcher shops buy these new pig derivatives and put them in cakes, then go out into the market selling "enhanced meat pies". Pie investors take them, slice them, and bundle them up with mashed potatoes, which are then exchanged for documents promising the delivery of future chicken. At this point no one knows what the food is made of or where the ingredients come from. Everyone gets an indigestion and pig-production drops. You lose your house for now bringing the pigs you said you'd bring.
You now grow spiders.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
18.- Your pig is worth 12 chicken. You give the pig in exchange for a house, and promise to bring 29 more pigs within the next 10 years.
18b. The landlord sells these future pigs and they are bought by investors who think that pig values will increase. PIG (Pork International Group) sells these investors insurance against pig values decreasing, on the idea that pig values have never gone down, so it's pretty safe to insure. Piggy-Bank, having nothing to do with your pig, starts printing certificates that state the value of your pig will increase, while selling off the certificates that state the value of your pig will go down. They get these insured their certificates insured by PIG as well.
Meanwhile, Porkiquest has started calling you. The value of your home has gone up and it's now worth 40 pigs, so you can refinance your home with them and put that additional value in your pocket. They have no idea how many pigs you raise every year, but they trust you. Also, when you sign the documents, they'll celebrate with a bump of coke. They sell your contract to Piggy-Bank before they find out that you don't raise pigs fast enough to pay off the loan.
Piggywide, seeing how much money Porkiquest is making decides to start doing business the same way.
Piggy-mae, a quasi government organization has been left out of this loop. Needing to answer their investors, who love investing in pigs, why they aren't making as much money, use their government influence to let them start trading in pig futures as well. Since it's such a trusted and safe institution, their approval of such business deals creates more demand, pushing the prices of pigs and all pig related deals through the roof.
After it all collapses, Kermit sings about how it isn't easy being Greenspan.
|
|
Which of these covers the definition of Fiat Money?
1. Your Pig is worth 12 Chickens. The King shows up and takes your Pig and gives you a piece of paper he says is worth one Pig. When you go to the King to trade the paper for 12 chickens the King tells you to bugger off because his 12 chickens are worth a Pig, not some stupid piece of paper.
2. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. The King shows up and takes your Pig leaving you with the words Volunteer Pig washer wanted.
3. Your Pig is worth 12 chickens. The King shows up and taking your Pig, leaves a piece of Paper with a Pig Drawn on it and the words beneath it that say: THIS IS A PIG.
4. Your Pig is worth 12 chickens. The King shows up and takes your pig leaving a piece of paper saying one pig equals six chickens.
5. Your Pig is worth 12 Chickens. The King shows up with three barrels and puts your pig under one of them, shuffles the barrels about and then walks off with the pig leaving you to wonder how many Pigs are in the barrels.
6. Your Pig is worth 12 chickens. The King shows up and takes your Pig. The King gives you a note saying 'this is a Pig until Midnight'.
7. Your Pig is worth 12 Chickens. The King shows up and tells you you owe him 12 chickens for looking after pigs.
Where these questions in response to mine?
Anyhow,
1) Is not fiat money, it is theft and fraud.
2) Is still theft
3) Is still theft
4) Is still theft
5) Is still theft (and these are getting absurd)
6) Is theft by a lunatic
7) Is ... nothing. Without more data, it's meaningless.
I'm not sure we're both talking about the same thing when we say "money". But to answer your question, none of them cover the definition of fiat money.
19. Your pig is worth 12 chickens. The King declares that giant stone disks are legal tender. You sell your pig to a guy for five such disks, then buy 12 chickens from another guy for five giant stone disks.
Definition: 'money without intrinsic value'Because gold, silver or shells have some sort of magical quality called 'intrinsic value' imbued into it by gods.Humans are stupid and love shiny things
They WILL always have value
Not likely, really. Those values make them natural mediums of exchange i.e. currency, but that doesn't give them VALUE.
If the economy collapses tomorrow, I'd rather have my weight in baked beans than in gold.
LinkGreat film.
I really think it was much better than it got credit for.
I'm not really a comic book/original source purist to the nth degree, but the ending was utterly botched. There was no reason to change it, and it ruined the entire point of the movie.
In the MOVIE, however, it's Dr. Manhattan. Not only is Dr. Manhattan NOT an alien menace, an unknown that would unite humanity in defense of Earth, but he's a KNOWN ENTITY. A known agent that works for the US. How is that suppose to stop the threat of thermonuclear war?
Frankly, Zack Snyder should be hanged.
Because the comic book ending would have made the movie 20-30 minutes longer with proper setup throughout.
Because the comic book ending would have made the movie 20-30 minutes longer with proper setup throughout.
...your point? Also, I doubt it. The pacing was clunky as hell, a lot of stuff could easily have been cut.
The change made the entire story meaningless. I'd think that would be worth changing some stuff around.
Definition: 'money without intrinsic value'Because gold, silver or shells have some sort of magical quality called 'intrinsic value' imbued into it by gods.Humans are stupid and love shiny things
They WILL always have value
Not likely, really. Those values make them natural mediums of exchange i.e. currency, but that doesn't give them VALUE.
If the economy collapses tomorrow, I'd rather have my weight in baked beans than in gold.
It is generally thought that one of the main reasons behind gold becoming so valuable was because it met all the requeriments of what we could naturally consider "luxury": It is rare, it is easy to work into ellaborate objects, it does not wear down with time, and it is very noticeable.
I've always liked Buffet's quote on gold, though:
“Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it.”
If memory serves, however, a big chunk of the world's demand for gold is actually for jewelry in India, so it's not entirely without a purpose.
Because the comic book ending would have made the movie 20-30 minutes longer with proper setup throughout....your point? Also, I doubt it. The pacing was clunky as hell, a lot of stuff could easily have been cut.
The change made the entire story meaningless. I'd think that would be worth changing some stuff around.
It's harder to get people to sit downfor a 4 hour movie. Dr. Manhattan served the same purpose, I understand you disagree, but he did. It wasn't set up great, but that doesn't mean they would have handled the comic ending any better. The director isn't exactly very good at establishing story or pacing, 300 is a pile of crap once you get past the slow mo visuals.
The movie was a visual recreation of the comics, he was extremely faithful to a large number of iconic panels.
The ending wasn't why the movie wasn't great, the director was.
Not quite true, they are a foundation for living, but once achieved and maintained, other goals become possible and so other things gain value.
Awww...
I thought this was a thread about buying a used car.
Not quite true, they are a foundation for living, but once achieved and maintained, other goals become possible and so other things gain value.
He said intrinsic value. You keep skipping over that word intrinsic.
|
|
Not quite true, they are a foundation for living, but once achieved and maintained, other goals become possible and so other things gain value.He said intrinsic value. You keep skipping over that word intrinsic.
Nothing really has intrinsic value, only what we give it. metals are universally coveted and will remain so unless so many are so bad off that only the means to survive have value.
What is something worth? Always and ever only what someone is willing to pay for it. So simple, and yet so difficult to remember.
Nothing really has intrinsic value, only what we give it. metals are universally coveted and will remain so unless so many are so bad off that only the means to survive have value.Not quite true, they are a foundation for living, but once achieved and maintained, other goals become possible and so other things gain value.He said intrinsic value. You keep skipping over that word intrinsic.
Which is precisely the scenario we were talking about wherein only food, water, and shelter have intrinsic value.
Which is precisely the scenario we were talking about wherein only food, water, and shelter have intrinsic value.Nothing really has intrinsic value, only what we give it. metals are universally coveted and will remain so unless so many are so bad off that only the means to survive have value.Not quite true, they are a foundation for living, but once achieved and maintained, other goals become possible and so other things gain value.He said intrinsic value. You keep skipping over that word intrinsic.
Intrinsic means having value of its own accord. There are lot of things that have value of their own accord beyond food, water and shelter. The human psyche needs more than just food, water and shelter to thrive.