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I recently stumbled upon this variant spellcasting system. I haven't decided if I like it or not, but it's definitely more appealing to me than Vancian spellcasting.
There are some potential problems with this sort of system. These are but a few:
What's your opinion of mana-based spellcasting (or spell points); what about the system provided in the above link?
I created my own RPG rules back in the 80s and it used mana based spellcasting.
However, my approach was much more simplified in some ways, and more complex in others. I can't say this particular approach appeals that much to me, it seems to be an attempt to squeeze the existing rules into a mana-based approach, with potentially unpredictable results. Since spell power doesn't scale linearly this approach allows spellcasters to essentially top-load their mana using it to cast more higher level spells, which in general will make them more powerful than the current slot-based system.
What I did with my mana based system was to provide wizards with mana that could be pumped into different forms of magical energy, and then they used rules to manipulate that energy, also using mana. So, for example, they could invest mana points into grabbing a chunk of fire energy, then use more mana to create a ray, or an area of effect, or to affect an object or creature. If they did an area of effect they would have to pump more mana into the spell to get damage over the full area equal to the damage a lesser amount of mana would do to a single creature.
In a sense that meant that you created "spells" on the fly and powered them with mana.
I thought it was a cool system, but the group I played with sort of broke apart and gaming with new people meant adopting the rules they were using, so I more or less abandoned my own rules and went with the flow...
Sounds very appealing, AD. I like the idea of casting spells "on the fly."
Detect, beyond some simple spells, most of the spells my players ended up using were "spells" they wrote themselves using the rules provided.
It was pretty cool really. The wizards in that campaign truly did spell research and came up with some cool stuff.
It's been so long though that I don't recall many details I'm afraid.
An example of a spell that one of the players came up with was an "animate" spell which used electrical energy applied to a recently killed body using mana per round to manipulate the electrical energy to trigger muscle movement to create a zombie. Then they came up with the idea of using more mana to create a pre-programmed set of instructions so they could send the zombie on its way... Creating a programmable zombie took a LOT of mana, but controlling one yourself required much less mana.
Really cool stuff I thought...
Oh yeah, mana also regenerated at a set rate based on level, so there wasn't a lot of "I need to rest to regain my spells" it was more "what's my mana level at? Do I need to drink a mana potion?" sort of dynamic.
I really like the idea of players coming up with their own spells. You could have a list of "rote" spells that serve as benchmarks, like fireball, and from there allow characters to research and develop their own.
Sounds fun as hell!
I really like the idea of players coming up with their own spells. You could have a list of "rote" spells that serve as benchmarks, like fireball, and from there allow characters to research and develop their own.
Sounds fun as hell!
Yeah, that's pretty much exactly how it worked.
That system also was "skill" based. Not skills like in Pathfinder, but skills like combat skills, magical skills, social skills, etc. At each level the player got a certain number of skill points and could invest them in whatever skills they wanted. So if a "wizard" wanted to become an archer, they just invested in archery. Of course that meant they didn't get as much mana increase as if they had invested in magic skills, but that was a deliberate trade off.
Most players tended to focus on one area, a few would mostly be one thing but would invest in other skills. Sneaky types tended to get a little bit of magic, for example.
Also, something you may not like, the level of magic was way, way lower than Pathfinder. Casting a fireball took a LOT of mana. Most magic was probably operating at the level of no higher than third level spells in Pathfinder. That was in part because we never played up to "epic" levels of power, but it was also deliberate. The idea of magic in that system was that it was subtle and clever, not cosmic-reality altering god-like power. Most of the power of the wizards was about enhancing the party and controlling the environment. It was much, much more mana efficient to give the party "striker" a boost to damage by infusing their weapon with energy than it was to take that same energy and blast someone with it.
Still, even with that much lower level of power, wizards were still very popular among the players.
Clerics were more like PF clerics, they didn't use mana so much as they used "reputation" with their god to do their "spells". The more their god respected the cleric, the more they would do for him.
I'm not sure that approach would scale well though. Too much subjectivity controlled by the GM I suspect.
I can dig it.
Sort of reminds me of how magic is handled in the Dresden Files. Most spells are subtle, requiring a good deal of preparation and ritual, but sometimes a wizard might want to cast spells "quick and dirty." That's where evocation comes into play. Basically, the less finesse applied to spellcasting, the more unpredictable and explosive the outcome.
World of Darkness magic works similarly, as well. Bad things happen if you cast flashy spells in the presence of non-mages.
Different settings require different kinds of magic. The way magic is handled definitely shapes the feel of the game. In a dark, noir sort of setting I'd want magic to be concealed from the eyes of the public. Whilst in a fantasy setting, I'm probably going to want to see wizard towers and magic-faires. The sorts of spells available in these two settings are going to vary as a consequence.
I use a Modular Spell Slot system. Meaning you have a Spell Slot Pool that you Prepare from or Cast From.
For each level of spell available you take (Number of Spell Slots)*(Level of Spell Slots)=Total Spell Slots from that column. Then you add all available columns and do the same with your Bonus Spells. Specialized Wizards figure their School Slots Separate from their normal Spell Slots.
You can take a 5th level slot and break it into:
- 1 3rd Level Slot & 2 1st Level Slots
- 1 3rd Level Slot & 1 2nd Level Slot
- 5 1st Level Slots
- ETC.
or take 3 1st level slots to form 1 3rd level slot.
Using this System a Ranger 20 has 33 Base Spell Slots before their Bonus Spell Slots from High Wisdom.
I find it keeps the Split Slot Feat Viable while still allowing a Caster to be a bit more powerful. My players and myself like it because we can use lower level spells without feeling like we wasted the slot.
uhm.. about mana.. for a quick use without a lot of work you can use the dnd 3.5 power point's tables of the psion (for a wizard) and Innate (for the sorcerer). You can find also there the rules for the metapsionic that you can use for a "mana base class" that use metamagic.
The problem with this is that psion and (more) innate know few spells.. and this balance the flexibility of this system..
The more you can work in this things, the better..
As a DM i tried in a campaign a strange system, a sort of fusion of wizard
and sorcerer (i love theme both).
The base system was the specialist wizard's one:
Every day Norac the Conjurer studies for his spells.(opposition school necromancy and enchantment)
He is 5th level int 19 and his spell per day 5/5/4/3
he memorizes
0: detect magic, read magic, resistance, predistigation, acid splash
1: Grease, mage armor, enlarge person, summon monster I, Colour spray
2: Glitterdust, summon monster II, invisibility, flaming sphere
3: Fly, summon monster III, magic circle against evil
(this is an example)
Now he can cast spells as a sorcerer does, using this as his daily spell known table.
he has 4 2nd level spells and he can cast any combination with his 2nd level spells but max 4 of them.
Basically this is a sorcerer with the wizard spell/day table that memorize his daily spell known :)
He can apply metamagic as a sorcerer does (on the fly with casting time and level increase) ONLY for spells from his school specialization and as a wizard normal does for spells from the other schools.
we tried this in a campaign with a lot of fun..
You can also mix this one with the mana point system..read the psionic for the augment rules.. this can help you with the problem of using all mana in high level spells..
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If you want a system that allows casters to act like it's a force of will, a natural extension of being and not some 'battery pack' they carry around, you could try a spell stress system.
Any given spell (depending on level and maybe other factors) has a stress value associated with it and consecutive casting can cause total stress to ramp up. When it passes certain thresholds, the caster may suffer damage, backlash or other effects.
After sitting down for a while, the caster can clear out any stress. Or call it magical toxin buildup in the system or anything else that makes sense.
If you want a system that allows casters to act like it's a force of will, a natural extension of being and not some 'battery pack' they carry around, you could try a spell stress system.
Any given spell (depending on level and maybe other factors) has a stress value associated with it and consecutive casting can cause total stress to ramp up. When it passes certain thresholds, the caster may suffer damage, backlash or other effects.
After sitting down for a while, the caster can clear out any stress. Or call it magical toxin buildup in the system or anything else that makes sense.
I like that one actually. It feels more organic than Mana and Vancian casting and requires less bookkeeping. I guess you'd just have to figure out a good DC. DC 10 Concentration check +1 for every spell you cast consecutively perhaps? That'd require some work but it reminds me of one of the methods HERO Fantasy gave for casting.
I'm working on a science fiction game that uses that kind of mechanic to govern psychic powers.
It works like this:
You have a value based on your stats, to determine your stress capacity.
When you use a power, it adds a random number (for my game, in d6s) to your stress level. More powerful abilities add more stress.
After resolving the power, check your current stress level to see if it has met any thresholds for penalties.
If it has, you roll a die and add the number by which your stress exceeds that threshold. The resulting value is used to determine which effect on the trauma table you suffer. More severe effects require a higher number.
If you spend a round without gaining any stress, it reduces by a certain amount. You may also spend actions to settle down more quickly.
In this system, high stress also penalises actions that require precision or thoughtfulness.
I'm working on a science fiction game that uses that kind of mechanic to govern psychic powers.
Do you intend to publish this system, or could you provide more information?
I use a Modular Spell Slot system. Meaning you have a Spell Slot Pool that you Prepare from or Cast From.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Using this System a Ranger 20 has 33 Base Spell Slots before their Bonus Spell Slots from High Wisdom.
I find it keeps the Split Slot Feat Viable while still allowing a Caster to be a bit more powerful. My players and myself like it because we can use lower level spells without feeling like we wasted the slot.
I got the same number for the paladin and ranger's level 20 mana pool, as per the link. The only difference (that that I notice) between what you're doing and what the mana system allows is that you can't "top load," as Adamantine Dragon pointed out.
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What's your opinion of mana-based spellcasting (or spell points); what about the system provided in the above link?
I used a mana based system in the 80's and 90's.
Worked well enough then. Today it might futher blur the lines between sorcerers and wizards. Not that I would complain, sorcerers are already being given tools that allow wider immediate spell availability than wizards.
You might want to check out the 3rd party product the riven mage by super genius games. Its a recent release and I hope they expand on it. Basically there is a limited set of basic 'spells' that you can get more or less effect out of by putting more 'flux' or energy into them. Its very much in line with some of the more modern views of magic like say the Dresden Files.
For instance there is a basic spell 'bolt'. It does damage based on how much flux you put into it (with a cap based on level) and you can modify it with specializations (called riven bonds) to do different kinds of energy damage or just force damage. You arent going to be able to do everything a wizard can do, but you can do alot of the classic things, and not be handcuffed to the concepts Jack Vance came up with so many years ago.
What's your opinion of mana-based spellcasting (or spell points); what about the system provided in the above link?
I've played with a system very similar to that one for a whole campaign, which lasted about four years. Caster classes in that campaign consisted of a druid and a wizard (and ranger).
All three classes were semi-prepared, insofar as they would prepare a selection of spells that they would cast spontaneously. Casting unprepared spells was possible but had a casting time of 1 round/spell level.
In my experience, such a simple mana-based system favored high level spells, whereas if a caster would normally cast only one 4th level spell per day, it was quite possible for my mana-point players to cast the same 4th spells three or four times in a single combat (top loading, as mentioned above), which screwed the odds in favour of players. The casters-are-already-most-powerful-leave-them-alone crowd would advise you to stay away from this system...
I've tried many variations. In the earliest version, hit points where separated in spirit points and health points (in itself a variation on UA's vitality/wound system), where caster used spirit points (vitality) as their mana pool (all characters, fighties and casties alike, rolled d10s for spirit points). This was interesting as mana=precious resource, but ultimately not D&D enough for us.
I then reverted back to hit points (still separated vitality/wounds) and mana points based on vancian system. Semi-preparation came later. One variation addresses spells such as cone of cold vs fireball: spells scaled only if you spend more mana points on them. That worked better on paper than in gameplay in my opinion, so that was dropped. In the end, by the time caster reached 9th or 10th level, the 2 mana points gap (level 5 vs level 3) did not make a huge difference. Casters would spam fireballs more than cones of cold, but such is also the case in vanilla vancian D&D/Pathfinder.
'findel
Here's the formula I've been developing:
Spells per day added together + caster stat bonus (int, wis, or cha) = MP
1st level wizard with an INT of 16 gets 3 0-level spells, 2 1-level spells (1 bonus 1-level spell for high int)
(3x 0-level spell) = 0 + (2x 1-level spell) = 2 + 3 Int bonus = 5 MP
The wizard in this situation can prepare 3 different 0-level spells to cast per day, and 2 1-level spell per day.
At 11th level, the wizard would get:
4x0 + 4x1 + 4x2 + 4x3 + 3x4 + 2x5 + 1x6 + 4 (int bonus) =
0 + 4 + 8 + 12 + 10 + 6 + 4 = 44 MP total
She can prep (4 0-level spells), (4 1st-level spells), (4 2nd-level spells), (4 3rd-level spells), (3 4th-level spells), (2 5th-level spells), (1 6th-level spell).
Spells cost twice their level to keep things somewhat balanced:
1st level spells cost 2MP
2nd level spells cost 4MP
And you can empower your spells by one damage die by effectively casting the spell twice.
Example, Magic Missile at 1st level is 1d4+1 and normally costs 2mp.
However, you may expend an extra 2MP to bump it to 2d4+1, etc.
---
My math might be a little off up there, as I'm still trying to work the kinks out of this system. Basically, I never liked the idea of a wizard saying "oops, I'm out of spells slots, you guys"; it just loses flavor to me.
If a 5th-level cone of cold spell deals marginally more damage than a 3rd-level fireball spell, why ever use the former? Now, my answer to this dilemma would probably mean "buffing" the cone of cold spell so that it is a more attractive option (increasing its damage to d8s, or adding a "slow" effect, or some such). There are other ways to handle this, like imposing additional mana costs for casting spells at higher caster levels than the minimum required to cast it.
That's a flaw with the spells. Even in the regular spell system, if Fireball is superior to Cone of Cold, there's no reason a caster shouldn't prepare Fireball with Heighten Spell (and Intensify Spell) into every slot they would otherwise use for Cone of Cold. Cone of Cold is a bit weak for it's level.
well obviously those worried about top-loading of spells need to balance the numbers so the highest level spells can only be performed a couple times before completely tapping the caster out.
I agree with a lot of the major points already brought up in this thread, so I'll skip over them and say instead;
Why not just use Psionics?
That is literally the exact, already tested, system that runs off a "mana" pool. No need to re-invent the wheel on this one.
Because maybe they don't like it's flavor? Or the precise implementation of those mechanics?I agree with a lot of the major points already brought up in this thread, so I'll skip over them and say instead;
Why not just use Psionics?
That is literally the exact, already tested, system that runs off a "mana" pool. No need to re-invent the wheel on this one.
For flavor, that's beyond easy to hand wave, you cannot possibly be so adamantly against it as to reject the system solely on those grounds.
The implementation, I guess I can see as a possibility, but my only thought is that I'm seeing a lot of people trying to come up with a workable variant casting system, and it usually ends up overly convoluted and not intuitive at all. Psionics already exists, and is pretty damn intuitive. At the very least, if you want a mana-based system, you could and probably should look at it for a point of comparison. Try to use some of the mechanics as a foundation to build on if you're not completely satisfied with the final product. At worst, it should give you something to compare against the power level of your homebrew system.
If there was an easily accessible magic system derived from the psionics system, porting over all the spells and re-tooling them--I'd use it. But, there's not (unless you can point one out to me).
I really don't want to convert all of the D&D 3.5/Pathfinder spells into psionics-based magic. That would take a colossal amount of effort. It would also be insanely tedious.
I can link you to the most complete conversion I can find.
Thread Here
It's for 3.5, but as the system is compatible regardless, there should be little difference. It includes conversions for some of the base classes, but mainly you'd just need the spell lists and descriptions.
Given the size of the PDF (309 pages), I'd say that the bulk of, if not all of, your work is done for you.
Thanks for providing the link. I'll be sure to check it out.
Super Genius has just produced a very workable system, supported by feats and more, that works very well. I also recommend the HypertextD20 system, although it is more geared to 3.0/3.5.
Laurefindel wrote
"In my experience, such a simple mana-based system favored high level spells, whereas if a caster would normally cast only one 4th level spell per day, it was quite possible for my mana-point players to cast the same 4th spells three or four times in a single combat (top loading, as mentioned above), which screwed the odds in favour of players. The casters-are-already-most-powerful-leave-them-alone crowd would advise you to stay away from this system..."
Agreed, my house system (based heavily upon the HypertextD20) has a spell point cost roughly twice the norm, making casters a bit more careful with the credit card. I've been using it for about a half dozen years with no real problems. My most 'spendthrift' player loves the freedom it gave her. As for 'bookkeeping, we use those colored glass beads meant for aquariums.
@Detect_Magic: Top Load?
I mean a Wizard could use as many spell slots as possible to prepare a large number of Wishes but that alone comes with its own risk and will quickly drain their coffers. I mean yeah they can now get that +5 Inherent Bonus easier but that will cost them quick a pretty penny per stat.
BUT the converse is also possible. As my Sorcerer can now spam Magic Missile and Fireball but not have to worry about wasting a 4th level spell slot on a Magic Missile.
& yeah most casters will share their Spell Slot Pool with others. Like the Wizard & Cleric, Sorcerer & Oracle, Paladin & Ranger, and Bard & Inquisitor.
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I'm working on a science fiction game that uses that kind of mechanic to govern psychic powers.Do you intend to publish this system, or could you provide more information?
It's very far from finished.
It takes place in an unfathomably vast technological complex and draws inspiration from Mirrodin, Necromunda, Blame!, Akira (the manga more than the film), Aliens, System Shock and others I probably can't think of right now.
It's a bleak post-singularity wasteland where the line between nature and technology was blurred and lost aeons ago. Machinery lives and grows. Plants and animals are fabricated from raw materials and parts as often as they are born naturally.
Player characters may be descendants of ancient humans, molecularly fabricated humans, genetically-altered clones, divergent evolutions of mankind that dwell in exotic parts of the complex or organic androids.
Blame!
I want to hug you right now...
If you want I will gladly help out.
Hmm... I really need to dig up my old d100 system...
I'll start building a public wiki to host the work in progress, I think!
Sweet!
My system used a HP/MP/AP system where you spent MP on Magic and AP on Weapon Based Powers.
Think how Star Ocean: Til The End Of Time worked but HP is a Separate line.
MP/AP was low but the Powers were cheap to use. HP was High but Damage was as well.