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Is there a rule that stats that if you're a sorcerer or bard, or other spontaneous caster, that you can't use a spell completion item if it's a spell that you don't have memorized? Like a sorcerer can't use a wand of magic missile if they don't have it known, despite it being on the wizard/sorcerer spell list. I've never heard of that rule before, and I'm being told it's not a house rule. Is this true?
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It's a house rule.
The only requirement to activate spell trigger and spell completion items is that the spell be on your class list. You don't have to have it known, just like a wizard doesn't have to have a spell memorized or even in their spellbook to use a scroll. Scrolls are a great way for spontaneous casters to gain access to those occasionally useful spells that aren't worth a spells known slot, though it can get expensive to rely on them too heavily.
Relevant passages below, nothing anywhere about "must know the spell."
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check.
All I know is that a sorcerer can use the wand if it is on their spell list whether or not they personally know it. That is how I have always played it. Nor can I find a place that says otherwise.
I challenged him on it, and I got shown a 3pp book filled with archetypes that allowed you to trade out abilities, like a sorcerer's bloodline spells, or an oracle's mystery spells, to be able to use spells in a wand or staff as if you had them in your spells known.
I think he's reading it wrong.
i'm not sure what book, but it sounds as if they are trading out abilities so that a sorcerer, for instance, could use wands of spells from the cleric or druid list. you do not need it for sorcerer/wizard spells because you are one. which book is it?
yea, i'm not familiar with that book. but as weirdo pointed out it clearly states in the rules that spell trigger/completion items simply must be on your classes' spell list, not necessarily your characters spells known list. it has been like that since 3.0 came out almost 13 years ago.
Sounds to me like that third party publisher did not understand the rules behind using spell completion items.
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yea, i'm not familiar with that book. but as weirdo pointed out it clearly states in the rules that spell trigger/completion items simply must be on your classes' spell list, not necessarily your characters spells known list. it has been like that since 3.0 came out almost 13 years ago.
Yeah, that's what I said, but he's all like "Well they must have changed it for Pathfinder then." I'm just not going to play a spellcaster. Even the Pathfinder Society games haven't hit me with that, and they're major sticklers for the rules.
yea, i'm not familiar with that book. but as weirdo pointed out it clearly states in the rules that spell trigger/completion items simply must be on your classes' spell list, not necessarily your characters spells known list. it has been like that since 3.0 came out almost 13 years ago.Yeah, that's what I said, but he's all like "Well they must have changed it for Pathfinder then." I'm just not going to play a spellcaster. Even the Pathfinder Society games haven't hit me with that, and they're major sticklers for the rules.
well the rules stated above are from pathfinder. he can run his games how he likes, but it doesn't stop his ruling from being a house rule. if he claims that he is going by RAW he is wrong.
You should explain to your GM that mistakes made by 3rd party publishers that don't understand the rules of the game they're making content for don't hold any water compared to actual evidence from the core rulebook. :P
it is on page 458 of the core rulebook. if he continues to balk at the idea have him read specifically on that page the explanation of spell trigger items,which i will copy here:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell
completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell
finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting
that an appropriate character would know, and a single word
that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone
whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case
even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a
3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is
stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell
trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks
of opportunity.
it says 'anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell', it does not say anything about spells known. it is just if your class has the capacity to cast that spell.
i bolded a certain part to point out the flaw in reasoning of your GM. if a 3rd level paladin, who cannot even cast spells at all, can use a wand of cure light wounds because it is a spell on his spell list, why couldn't a sorcerer use a wand of magic missile even if he doesn't have it as a spell known?
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I challenged him on it, and I got shown a 3pp book filled with archetypes that allowed you to trade out abilities, like a sorcerer's bloodline spells, or an oracle's mystery spells, to be able to use spells in a wand or staff as if you had them in your spells known.
I think he's reading it wrong.
101 Simple Archetypes. And no, it's not so you can use another spell list. It's for your specific class list of spells. But I think how it's supposed to be read is that you use your own spell slots instead of using the charges off of the wand or staff.
I'm almost certain that's how the archetype is supposed to work. The sorcerer's arcane bloodline gives a similar power, worded in a clearer way:
Arcane Apotheosis (Ex): At 20th level, your body surges with arcane power. You can add any metamagic feats that you know to your spells without increasing their casting time, although you must still expend higher-level spell slots. Whenever you use magic items that require charges, you can instead expend spell slots to power the item. For every three levels of spell slots that you expend, you consume one less charge when using a magic item that expends charges.
And a magic item with a similar benefit and wording:
This page is covered in densely-worded arcane or divine magical runes. It contains the knowledge of a single arcane or divine spell (chosen by the creator when the item is crafted). If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known.
The archetype is probably just poorly worded, or possibly based on a faulty understanding of the rules. Talk to your GM, but do be prepared for the possibility that he either won't believe you or will believe you but decide to keep playing that way as a house rule. In which case, yes, it might be a good idea to play a different class.