You can trip with a whip without any feats. All weapon finesse does is let you use dexterity instead of strength for the attack roll. Agile maneuvers would only let you use dexterity on combat maneuvers that don't use your weapon.
Also, a scorpion whip only does lethal damage, otherwise it functions as a whip, so no AoOs. The opportunist talent wouldn't work unless you could normally make an AoO with the weapon that round. You'd have to invest in the whip mastery feats.
And improved whip mastery let's you make AoOs out to your natural reach +5 feet with a whip. You need that feat if you want to do it.
You can trip with a whip without any feats. All weapon finesse does is let you use dexterity instead of strength for the attack roll. Agile maneuvers would only let you use dexterity on combat maneuvers that don't use your weapon.
You are only partially correct. Agile Maneuvers lets you use your Dexterity modifier on ANY combat maneuver, regardless of whether or not it utilizes a weapon.
I know that already. I just didn't point that out to the OP because it's easier to view them differently since they almost do the same thing.
Almost being the key word.
Weapon Finesse works on any weapon-based combat maneuver or attack roll, provided the weapon in question is finessible. Agile Maneuvers, on the other hand, works only on combat maneuvers, but works regardless of whether or not it utilizes a weapon.
(I know you know this, submit2me, I'm just elaborating for the benefit of others.)
|
I guess you were meaning Fury's Fall: my take on this is that the feat was written BEFORE the Weapon Finesse feat applied to maneuvers made with finesseable weapons (I think it was even written for 3.5 rules !), and as such wasn't intended to stack in order to give you twice your Dex bonus to trip maneuvers with a whip. In addition, you may not receive twice the bonus from the same source. Even if they come from different feats, you already apply your Dexterity bonus to CMB checks when performing a trip attack roll, so it wouldn't stack with itself.
Ironically, I believe this feat is better for Str-focused whip users.
Weapon focus in the other hand works whenever you perform an attack roll with your whip (so, whenever you attack to deal damage or perform maneuvers that may be done as an attack roll, like trip/disarm/sunder).
If you are searching for ways to improve your whip tripping, take the Whip Mastery tree and the Combat Reflexes feat; then enjoy tripping and disarming as an attack of opportunity whenever someone moves, falls or stands up. You may want to convince your GM to let you take the Chain Master, Prehensile Whip or Lightning Lasher character traits.
|
You don't get to add a stat twice. In the example of Weapon Finesse and Fury's Fall, they're both giving you access to the same bonus, in this case, your Dex bonus, so they're doing the same thing and don't stack.
There's a good breakdown of why they don't stack here including links and quotes from Paizo staff on the matter.
|
|
Nothing ironic about that, adding both Str and Dex would be good for most fighters. If this feat does nothing for me, then why do I need to take it? Does agile manuevers or weapon finesse count as a prereq for Fury's snare instead of Fury's fall? Otherwise I should get dex twice.
This whip rules is really annoying. I need to take whip mastery to bypass natural armor, but the scorpion whip does that already. It is a useless feat that I am taking just so I can take the next one in the line. I would never take weapon focus without it being a prereq, but at least I am getting a benefit from it.
Fury's Snare was written before it was allowed for Weapon Finesse to apply Dex on some combat maneuvers if they are made with a finesseable weapon, so it was actually useful previously; you cannot expect of it to follow the usual Pathfinder formating. Also, the scorpion whip feat has an awkward attribute : unless it has been errata-ed, it actually does not work like you think it does, from the words of James Jacobs himself : "if you're proficient with a whip, you can use a scorpion whip. Doesn't mean you can use a scorpion whip to do all the things a whip can do, though... just what a scorpion whip can do.""
Clarification: "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Whip)
The weapon only has the performance feature (it does NOT have the disarm, reach, or trip features.)
However, if you have:
Weapon Proficiency (Whip) AND Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Scorpion Whip)
The weapon then has the performance feature AND the disarm, reach, and trip features."
Note that on the other hand, the scorpion whip is a light weapon, so it is easier to use on some occasions like two-weapon fighting; but deals less damage on a power attack.
The feats you really need, and since they come from the last, pure PFRPG supplement instead of a 3.5 adventure module, are the Whip Mastery + Improved + Greater feats. Plus the traits I suggested previously. For I built a whip master recently, I do not even understand why you would try to get the Fury feat tree, since to be efficient and versatile, even a fighter will require :
Whip proficiency
Weapon Focus
Weapon Finesse
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Improved Trip
Greater Trip (minimum level 6)
Improved Disarm
Greater Disarm (minimum level 6)
Whip mastery (asap level 2)
Improved Whip Mastery (asap level 5)
Greater Whip Mastery (asap level 8)
... which means even all your feats cannot save you from suffering at low levels. And I include Disarm because it is a must-have in the arsenal of any whip fighter (greater trip/disarm on attack of opportunity will produce much tears and sweat); for which I also WARMLY recommend the Lore Warden archetype.
Note how there isn't any damage-increasing feat in this list. Do you HAVE to follow the RAW 100% or may your GM be reasonable on the topic ?
|
|
"This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons."
Note that this ability has not been included in Paizo's Ultimate Equipment, so it may not be really RAW outside of the campaign setting it was intended for.
You do not NEED disarm, and indeed, the whip is the best weapon out there to disarm without the feats since you may do so without provoking most of the time. But if you do not deal much damage and limit yourself to Trip, you'll get sorry whenever these two weaknesses will hurt you and you have no backup plan (untrippable enemies, flying, etc.). These feats allow you to basically become immune to enemies wielding manufactured weapons since there are few chances they'll go through your Trip/Disarm wall of death.
Another option could be to get yourself a Ring of Tactical Precision and ignore the disarm feats to select instead the Paired Opportunists teamwork feat. Imbue the ring with this feat and grant it to an ally with a high critical range and the Combat Reflexes feat (or simply convince an ally to get this teamwork feat). The Seize the Moment teamwork feat can help if the ally got his own ring and grants this feat to you.
Any damage dealt by the big warrior whenever YOU perform an attack of opportunity (at which point he will be able to perform one himself) will basically be yours... and said big warrior probably will do a better job at dealing damage than you would ever have. (Also, keep in mind you can use your whip to reposition someone as per the maneuver; and you add all enhancement bonuses to your whip to combat maneuvers that use your whip, like trip/disarm/reposition !)
Despite Whirlwind Attack looking great, I do not suggest it at all, even with a whip: way too much prerequisites that will not synergize, too much feats to take, and you will be more efficient by positioning yourself strategically in order to incite attacks of opportunity which will allow you and your allies to trip/disarm/destroy your foes. Tough I guess this may be useful for a 2/3 BAB class since you get less attacks than a full BAB class...
Finally, you may want to check the Blacksnake archetype from SGG games: it grants you cool tricks with whips and much less feats to take in order to be efficient, at the cost of some sneak attack progression and the trap sense class feature.
|
|
Combat reflexes will serve few purpose for your eidolon if you do not have it yourself; since it is useful for characters who make themselves their enemies provoke and rely on a great reach. Reach will not work as an evolution for your eidolon's whip attack since you must apply it to a natural attack.
The real question is : what do you want your character to do ? With such a feat-intensive build, there are few options where you will deal damage yourself OR succeed at your maneuvers; and even less ways to do both.
|
|
***I am not really sure what RAW says, but my DM lets me trip flying creatures. It makes sense, orientation to the ground is important for non magic flyers, and if you can disrupt that, they should fall.
"Trip
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped."
That's the RAW, in case you were curious.
|
|
Actually, nope, it wouldn't apply (though there is some argument). Limbs (arms/legs) are not attacks but a -tool- to gain attacks through evolutions (slam/claws) or wield items, which are not treated as attacks per se even if wielding a weapon. The reach evolution must apply to a single attack the eidolon possesses, and the only way to actually possess an attack is to have a natural weapon.
Note that your mileage may vary, but even then, it is easy to break an eidolon and I know few reasonable GMs who would give even more candy to a summoner than what they already receive.
The issue with not having combat reflexes is that you will only be able to strike once when it's not your round, despite being able to perform a lot of attack rolls... unless you decide not to take the whip mastery feats, in which case you will simply perform trip attempts at a range and cast some spells.
You may want to check a bladebound magus, who is able right at 1st level to cast True Strike on himself and perform a trip/disarm attempt at a +20 bonus in the same round; then gets later a magic whip, and the ability to improve it's enhancement and bonuses thanks to his arcane pool and arcane powers.
|
|
I guess as long as you take the claws evolution, you already paid the cost to use the reach feature. I would allow it, especially since you would be more efficient by just attacking with your claws... and you even took the bite evolution which doesn't possess reach. It's more crippling than anything else for your concept.
As your DM, I would treat the 4 evolution points or the feat you spent into Weapon Training as usable with Reach; but only for the weapon type you selected with your feat.
Remember that a summoner may use "enlarge person" on his eidolon straight at 1st level... accordingly, with a one round spellcasting time, but that's reach and a lot of damage for free with one round of spellcasting.
If I may, I think since you already want to take the Bite evolution, you should just take the Reach+Trip evolution for your bite, and wield a two-hander with reach, trip and a high crit range (fauchard, feel my gaze). It frees some evolution points; when used alone and by choosing the bite evolution a second time, it deals 1/1-2 your Str modifier and allows a free trip on a hit; this combination also allows you to alternate between your high crit weapon and your bite depending on the situation in order to maximize the efficiency of attacks of opportunity and teamwork feats ! (When full-attacking, use both the weapon and the bite as a secondary natural weapon; at higher levels, add poison, grab and swallow whole to your bite for the fun.)