Paladins and their deity choices

[Quath]

Relevant new text:

Religion: Characters can elect to worship any deity listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, The Inner Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and Magic, or any other source listed as an official Additional Resource. Characters may elect to worship an evil god, but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity. For clerics, this is an especially important choice, since the deity’s alignment determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy, a decision with significant tactical implications for the cleric and her allies. Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of the order of the star, and samurai of the order of the star must choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that receive spells and abilities from a specific divine source receive their powers from a deity. Druids, oracles, and rangers are the exception to this rule. The list is not exhaustive, and divine spellcasters of any future classes whose sources are added as additional resources to the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign will be required to choose a deity unless otherwise specified. Otherwise, characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.

With this new set of restrictions does that mean my paladin can no longer worship Nethys? More specifically does the alignment to deity restriction only apply for evil deities as the text implies?

[Alexander_Damocles]

That isn't a new restriction, as far as I can recall. I think your Paladin will have to swap deities, which is unfortunate. Pathfinder Society requires Paladins to have a deity, while standard Pathfinder does not.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Nethys doesn't have paladins.

[Quath]

The idea was that my paladin worships Nethys but gains his powers through his devotion and force of will and not directly from Nethys. It sucks that I have to change though.

The previous edition of the PFS:GtOP didn't list paladins as needing to worship a deity since a PRPG paladin doesn't get his powers directly from a god (until the most recent PFS:GtOP.) So officially my paladin followed the teachings and practices of Nethys and never received his powers from him.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

James Jacobs had a very good post, of which I’m sure Jiggy can link to:

Paraphrasing here:

Basically he said, “If you are a Paladin and worship a LG deity, your deity’s tenets will most likely coincide with your paladin code. The further you stray the more difficult it is to adhere to the tenets of both masters. For Sarenrae and Abadar they don’t have much conflicting, whereas Irori and Shelyn’s tenets can conflict with a Paladin’s code and make it more challenging. If you worship a deity two steps away from your alignment, then you aren’t roleplaying your alignment correctly.

[AdAstraGames]

Here are the major Avistan deities you can have as a Paladin:

Sarenrae
Torag
Abadar
Shelyn
Erastil
Iomedae

Irori doesn't have Paladins, though the Champion of Irori comes close.

It has not been defined if the other NG or LN deities have Paladins yet, so you may not take them. You can probably claim that any LG deity has Paladins unless specifically interpreted otherwise, but be aware that you are, once again, moving into RAI territory and the game can and will change underneath you.

I will be retiring one of my characters from convention play over this change.

[Mike Lindner]

Additionally to what Alexander_Damocles said, all PCs in PFS who worship a deity must be within one step of that deity's alignment, regardless of whether or not they get powers from that deity. This applies to every character class. The difference for certain classes such as clerics is that they must worship a deity; other classes can choose to not worship any deity (within the rules mechanics). Even for these characters you can certainly still venerate one or more deities, but you won't get any mechanical benefit or hindrance from doing so.

[Fromper]

So no more paladins of Aroden, I guess. I have a friend who I'll want to point this out to. Given the PC, I think she can probably get away with being a paladin of Iomedae who's just so stupid that she thinks she's getting her powers from Aroden.

[Fromper]

AdAstraGames wrote:

Here are the major Avistan deities you can have as a Paladin:

Sarenrae
Torag
Abadar
Shelyn
Erastil
Iomedae

Irori doesn't have Paladins, though the Champion of Irori comes close.

It has not been defined if the other NG or LN deities have Paladins yet, so you may not take them. You can probably claim that any LG deity has Paladins unless specifically interpreted otherwise, but be aware that you are, once again, moving into RAI territory and the game can and will change underneath you.

I will be retiring one of my characters from convention play over this change.

Where do you see in the rules or Guide to Organized Play that only those dieties can have paladins? It just says that paladin must worship a diety within one alignment step of LG. I would think that ANY diety of appropriate alignment could work.

[BigNorseWolf]

What about Aspu? He's a legal choice alignment wise, but you'd need to have faiths of purity (apparently) to know that he doesn't have clerics or paladins (but he las listed domains.....)

[AdAstraGames]

Fromper: Inner Sea World Guide very specifically lists which deities have Paladins. That's the list of available deities.

ISWG got rid of Paladins worshipping any deities not on that list as the source of their powers. There was a gray area that allowed you get powers from the non-specified forces of Law & Good, while being a lay worshipper of another non-Evil, non-Chaotic deity, but that has now been closed with the PFS Field Guide version 4.3.

I'm not happy about having to retire the character I enjoy playing the most over this. Their campaign, their rules, and they can change them as they see fit.

[Rycaut]

Actually there was a post earlier that the line in Faiths of Purity that Apsu doesn't grant spells was an error - so I would think he can have both Clerics and Paladins - though non-Dragon ones would be fairly rare (so few PC options but it is legal).

I'm checking on this specifically because I have a Nagaji Paladin of Apsu. I don't see anything that should prevent that - rare to be sure but not impossible unless I'm missing something key.

[Feegle]

AdAstraGames wrote:

Fromper: Inner Sea World Guide very specifically lists which deities have Paladins. That's the list of available deities.

I disagree with this conclusion, AAG.

I have argued before, and I continue to stand by my feeling that if something is not in the core assumption (for example, the ISWG) you cannot assume that players know what's in it, and you certainly can't enforce those rules. Irori is listed as a LN deity in the Core Rulebook, and the GtOP says you can worship anyone within one step of your alignment.

As far as I'm concerned, until there's something in the Core Assumption that says you can't be a Paladin of Irori, you can be.

[AdAstraGames]

Jeff:

ISWG is listed among the Core Assumptions for the PFS OP campaign. The only deities that (currently) grant Paladin abilities in Golarion are specified in the ISWG. Now that PFS requires all Paladins to have a deity within one alignment step of their own, you are only allowed to be a Paladin of one of those six deities until further expansion of the list is done.

I do not make the rules.

I personally preferred the looser interpretations prior to ISWG than "It Must Hew To All Published Golarion Materials."

Yes, they technically 'allowed' Paladins of Asmodeus. I think the appropriate correction would have been the following:

"If you're a character who is granted domain abilities (Inquisitor, Cleric), your deity must be within one step of your own. If you're a worshipper of a deity, you may not worship a deity with an alignment component in opposition to your own - no Good characters worshipping Evil deities, no Lawful characters worshipping Chaotic deities, and the like."

But no doubt, this would've been as horrible and wrong as the Sythesist Plague, dogs and cats would've taken showers together, and the world might've ended without a final resolution on the Perception/Lighting/Invisibility/Cover/Stealth rules... :)

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

I agree with Jeff. If it isn't part of the Core Assumption, we can't enforce a rule that someone would have no way of knowing without purchasing a book that they don't need to own to play the game.

Until, and/or Unless Mike decides to codify the list of Golarion deities that can have Paladins as printed in Faiths of Purity and other places, then we can't enforce those non-core books.

I've been wrong before, but I'm going to guess that Mike isn't interested in creating a list of deities that may need to be updated everytime some new source with new deities gets published.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

AdAstraGames wrote:

Jeff:

ISWG is listed among the Core Assumptions

Where? I can't find where the ISWG is listed as a Core Assumption.

As far as I'm aware, there are only 3 books that are core assumption.

Core Rulebook, Guide to OP, and Pathfinder Field Guide.

[Feegle]

AdAstraGames wrote:

ISWG is listed among the Core Assumptions for the PFS OP campaign.

I believe you are mistaken. As far as I know, the Core Assumption is the Core Rulebook, the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, plus the GtOP.

edit: ninjaed by less than a minute. :(

[AdAstraGames]

OK, then Pharasman clerics can take the Undead subdomain? Because the only place that specifies which subdomains a cleric can take by deity is...ISWG.

And I had this exact same argument who wanted his minmaxed healbot cleric of Pharasma to have the Undead domain so he could give Death's Kiss to party members, then negative channel heal them for 1.5x the normal healing amount.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

AdAstraGames wrote:

OK, then Pharasman clerics can take the Undead subdomain? Because the only place that specifies which subdomains a cleric can take by deity is...ISWG.

And I had this exact same argument who wanted his minmaxed healbot cleric of Pharasma to have the Undead domain so he could give Death's Kiss to party members, then negative channel heal them for 1.5x the normal healing amount.

Your logic makes no sense to me.

To be able to take a subdomain, your deity has to offer it.

If you don't buy a book (or download the free web supplement) that gives you the information you need to legally play the character, then you can't use that option.

[CRobledo]

AdAstraGames wrote:

OK, then Pharasman clerics can take the Undead subdomain? Because the only place that specifies which subdomains a cleric can take by deity is...ISWG.

And I had this exact same argument who wanted his minmaxed healbot cleric of Pharasma to have the Undead domain so he could give Death's Kiss to party members, then negative channel heal them for 1.5x the normal healing amount.

Table 2-12 in the APG (legal source required to use subdomains), page 91 contains all of golarion deities and their subdomains. Pharasma explicitly doesn't grant undead.

[Feegle]

AdAstraGames wrote:

OK, then Pharasman clerics can take the Undead subdomain? Because the only place that specifies which subdomains a cleric can take by deity is...ISWG.

And I had this exact same argument who wanted his minmaxed healbot cleric of Pharasma to have the Undead domain so he could give Death's Kiss to party members, then negative channel heal them for 1.5x the normal healing amount.

I'm not sure what the argument is, here. Did your healbot cleric player basically show up and say, "I know subdomains exist, so I'm going to assume that clerics of Pharasma can use the Undead one?"

It's not in the Core Assumption that Pharasmin clerics can take the Undead subdomain. (IIRC - and I'll freely admit that I've never been great with rules - there's nothing about subdomains at all in the Core Assumption.) That means if a player wants to use that option they have to show the GM the source that allows the Undead subdomain for Pharasma.

The onus is on the player to open up options using Additional Resources, providing copies of those Additional Resources to the GM at their table. There isn't - nor should there be - an onus on players to read all the Additional Resources to make sure their otherwise-legal character doesn't break rules that were implemented outside the core assumption.

[Alexander_Damocles]

Irori has to have Paladins. The champion of Irori both requires Smite Evil and worship of Irori. Therefore, unless we say that an entire PRC is unavailable for play in any game of Pathfinder anywhere, Irori has to have Paladins.

[AdAstraGames]

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Irori has to have Paladins. The champion of Irori both requires Smite Evil and worship of Irori. Therefore, unless we say that an entire PRC is unavailable for play in any game of Pathfinder anywhere, Irori has to have Paladins.

What, Paizo has inconsistencies in their published material? Shock! Dismay!

ISWG makes the definitive case for what deities have Paladins. Irori is not on that list.

Do I expect this to change? Yes. I even think it's highly likely it will change in the way you think it should work. Does it work that way now? No.

And PFS is all about RAW and not RAI...

[Dragnmoon]

Andrew Christian wrote:

I agree with Jeff. If it isn't part of the Core Assumption, we can't enforce a rule that someone would have no way of knowing without purchasing a book that they don't need to own to play the game.

I actually agree with this... That said Here is a bit more info..

List of Authorized books to pick a Deity From

Spoiler:

Core Book
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Dragon Empires Gazetteer - All gods listed on pages 58-63
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and Magic - all of the gods listed on the inside front cover are legal choices for clerics
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide - All gods listed in the tables on pages 229, 231, and 234
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Magnimar, City of Monuments - All gods listed in the tables on page 25 are legal
Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer - All gods listed on pages 26-27
Pathfinder Player Companion: Dwarves of Golarion - all gods listed on the inside front cover
Pathfinder Player Companion: Elves of Golarion - all gods on page 10
Pathfinder Player Companion: Goblins of Golarion (With Boon Only) - all goblin gods and subdomains except flotsam on pages 26–27 are legal for play
Pathfinder Player Companion: Gnomes of Golarion - all gods on the inside front cover

Gods that fall within the Paladins Alignment Restriction from above resources (LG/LN/NG)

Spoiler:

Lawful Good
Erastil
Iomedae
Torag
Shizuru
Tsukiyo
Angradd
Apsu
Folgrit
Grundinnar
Andoletta
Ragathiel

Lawful Neutral
Abadar
Irori
Alseta
Dranngvit
Kols
Magrim
Imbrex
Magdh

Neutral Good
Sarenrae
Shelyn
Qi Zhong
Bolka
Chaldira Zuzaristan
Kurgess
Trudd
Yuelral
Arshea
Korada
Soralyon
Ylimancha

Gods that Specify they have Paladin Followers from Above list of Gods

Spoiler:

Lawful Good
Erastil
Iomedae
Torag
Ragathiel

Lawful Neutral
Abadar

Neutral Good
Sarenrae
Shelyn

Gods that Specify they Don't have Paladin Followers from Above list of Gods

Spoiler:

None

One point I would like to make, many of the Gods listed above within the Paladin's Alignment restrictions don't have much information written on them but Most if not all would fit a Paladin even if they are not mentioned under the Gods info.

[Michael Brock]

There are also knights, that are very similar to paladins, on page 18 of Knights of the Inner Sea.

[CanisDirus]

AdAstraGames wrote:

ISWG makes the definitive case for what deities have Paladins. Irori is not on that list.

Do I expect this to change? Yes. I even think it's highly likely it will change in the way you think it should work. Does it work that way now? No.

And PFS is all about RAW and not RAI...

You are correct. ISWG makes a clear case for what deities, in that book, have Paladins.

However, as PFS is about RAW and not RAI:

Additional Resources wrote:

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide
Domains: Scalykind and Void domains; Equipment: all weapons, armor, and adventuring gear on pages 290–293 with the following restriction: only gunslingers may purchase firearms except cannons, which are not available to anyone; Feats: all feats on pages 284–289 except Eye of the Arclord, Fortune Teller, Hamatulatsu, Harrowed, and Shade of the Uskwood. For the Cypher Magic feat, replace the Scribe Scroll prerequisite with Spell Focus; Gods: All gods listed in the tables on pages 229, 231, and 234; Languages: all languages on page 251 may be learned via the Linguistics skill; Magic Items: goz mask, unguent of revivification, wayfinder, zoic fetish; Prestige Classes: Hellknight, Low Templar; Races: All human ethnicities are legal except Azlanti, humans begin play knowing all listed languages for their chosen ethnicity as racial languages; Spells: all spells on pages 294–297 except harrowing, extraplanetary teleport, and teleport trap

ISWG insofar as PFS is concerned allows for the gods in the ISWG to be used, but I see nothing in the above that changes the way in which Paladins operate, or the deities they can or cannot select (other than allowing all PFS players who own the ISWG to make use of the gods on the listed pages).

ISWG, as previously stated, is an Additional Resource, not part of the Core Assumption, and thus does not supercede the Guide to Organized Play which states:

1 - Worshipers of a deity must be within one step of their god's alignment
2 - Paladins must be LG

This means that Paladins must worship a LG, NG, or LN deity.

RAW, that is.

[AdAstraGames]

Nope - Inner Sea World Guide specifically and definitively lists which deities have Paladins. Until and if this list is changed, you are playing with RAI.

I am comfortable with playing RAI - but:

If you don't want to run the risk that the rules will change underneath you - worship one of the seven deities in ISWG.

[Chris Mortika]

Faiths of Purity notes that all of Torag's paladins are dwarves.

[Dragnmoon]

AdAstraGames wrote:

Nope - Inner Sea World Guide specifically and definitively lists which deities have Paladins.

Actually no it doesn't.

There is not a list that in the Inner Sea World Guide that says "Only these deities have Paladins". There are only Deity Write ups that mention Paladins.

None of the LG/LN/NG deities in the book specifically state they cannot or do not have Paladin Followers.

[LazarX]

AdAstraGames wrote:

Yes, they technically 'allowed' Paladins of Asmodeus.

PFS never made such an allowance. Some players tried to truck with a badly written piece of 3.5 era text and a prolonged message board saga about some players rubbish character concept.

A Paladin can not worship an evil deity and remain a Paladin, no matter how lawful said deity might be.

[Belafon]

Hey, look what I found on page 14 of the Guide to Absalom:

Quote:

By long-standing tradition, the Tempering Hall also trains paladins called by Abadar, Irori, and Shelyn.

I know this isn't going to convince anyone who already has something firmly in mind and is going to twist any new information to fit that view. And yes - before someone points it out - this was written under 3.5 rules.

The paladins of Asmodeus were actually in Council of Thieves - the first PFRPG Adventure Path. There was no code or other player information presented there. I thought the idea was kinda cool but the Hellknights (which they appear to have evolved into) are way cooler.

[Belafon]

Oh, another bit of fun. Also from the Guide to Absalom. Invisibility spells are illegal in Absalom.

Spoiler:

Spring that one on your players the next time one of them disappears in front of law-abiding citizens.

So, since the Guide to Absalom only says that invisbility spells are illegal in Absalom, that means they must be legal every other place.

That's the danger of using exclusionary logic on inclusionary text.

Spoiler:

By the way, that book is not in additional resources. Don't actually enforce that proscription.

[BigNorseWolf]

AdAstraGames wrote:

Nope - Inner Sea World Guide specifically and definitively lists which deities have Paladins.

Which page?

[Fromper]

Does anyone else find it ironic that Mike Brock popped into this thread to mention an aside, yet avoided wading into the actual debate?

Mike, can we get a ruling on this? Can a paladin worship any deity that meets the alignment requirements, or only the ones that specifically say they allow paladins in the Inner Sea World Guide?

[Feegle]

If he avoided commenting on it before, I suspect he's not going to make an official ruling.

There are two discussions happening in this thread at the moment.

1) Can a Paladin worship any alignment-appropriate god, regardless of what it says in the ISWG?

and the more meta:

2) Can a GM disallow an otherwise-legal character based on information in an approved Additional Resource that they player may not have access to?

At my table, the answer to #1 is yes.

At my events, the answer to #2 is no.

YMMV.

[LazarX]

Belafon wrote:

Hey, look what I found on page 14 of the Guide to Absalom:

Quote:

By long-standing tradition, the Tempering Hall also trains paladins called by Abadar, Irori, and Shelyn.

I know this isn't going to convince anyone who already has something firmly in mind and is going to twist any new information to fit that view. And yes - before someone points it out - this was written under 3.5 rules.

The paladins of Asmodeus were actually in Council of Thieves - the first PFRPG Adventure Path. There was no code or other player information presented there. I thought the idea was kinda cool but the Hellknights (which they appear to have evolved into) are way cooler.

As it has been pointed out by Jacobs and others, the text that puts forth the idea of Asmodean Paladins were MISTAKES on their part.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Jeff Mahood wrote:

If he avoided commenting on it before, I suspect he's not going to make an official ruling.

There are two discussions happening in this thread at the moment.

1) Can a Paladin worship any alignment-appropriate god, regardless of what it says in the ISWG?

and the more meta:

2) Can a GM disallow an otherwise-legal character based on information in an approved Additional Resource that they player may not have access to?

At my table, the answer to #1 is yes.

At my events, the answer to #2 is no.

YMMV.

This.

If I am coordinating an event, then I will instruct all the GM's at said event that they don't have the option of disallowing otherwise legal characters as per what Jeff mentioned above.

Additionally, I would go so far as to suggest to the GMs in my region to be lenient on issues such as these, where if the person doesn't have a book they don't need, you can't bind their character choices to that book.

[Chris Mortika]

I can get behind that, Andrew.

I suppose that if there were a resource that placed a restriction on a class and also opened up new feats or other opportunities, I'd be twitchy about allowing a player to play a character who benefitted from the resource but ignored the restrictions.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Chris Mortika wrote:

I can get behind that, Andrew.

I suppose that if there were a resource that placed a restriction on a class and also opened up new feats or other opportunities, I'd be twitchy about allowing a player to play a character who benefitted from the resource but ignored the restrictions.

chuckle... If they actually do own the book, and choose to use part of it, then I think it would be ok to bind them to using all of the legal parts of it.

But just because only 6 deities in the ISWG specifically say they have paladins, does not mean that all the other LG, LN, and NG deities cannot have them. It just means that the other churches don't have organized orders of paladins within their hierarchy.

[Belafon]

So I finally went and looked for this "list" of who can have Paladins from ISWG that AdAstra keeps talking about. Here's the closest I can find (page 275).

Quote:

Not all of the Inner Sea's faiths maintain orders of paladins, with the faiths of Abadar, Erastil, Iomedae, Sarenrae, and Torag being the most prominent of those who do.

I think there will not be a FAQ because all but one person agrees that to be a paladin you must:

1) Be lawful good

2) Worship any LG, LN, or NG deity from a legal source that does not have a specific statement that it doesn't grant powers to paladins. (In other words all of them are legal right now.)