when a spell or ability refers to an alignment (evil, lawful, etc.) without any qualifier, do the rules assume alignment or subtype? Is this assumption clearly stated anywhere in the rules?
I ask because in our current 3.5 game our DM considers spells that target or effect based on "good" or "evil" to only work on creature with that subtype, not that merely match this alignment because a couple spells use the qualifier "alignment" in their text. Most of us consider this to be an incorrect reading, but cannot find anywhere that explicitly says one way or the other that protection from evil or Holy storm affect evil aligned enemies who aren't of the Evil subtype.
I'm content to just ignore the spells that target evil with my current character, but I'm hoping that there's some explicit rules text laid out somewhere in pathfinder so that I'm not going to be disinclined toward playing most divine classes when we start a new campaign after finishing up the current one. (Although it does make a wordcasting oracle somewhat more attractive since the alignment words are all written generically to save space and thus all use the word "alignment" in them.)
@OP:
The alignment descriptor, that is the [Evil], [Good], [Lawful] or [Chaotic], written next to the school of certain spells, have no effect on the spell, the caster, or the target of the spell, at all.
The descriptor of a spell has the following relevance:
- It describes how the spell interacts with other spells. An [Evil] spell will register as evil to a Detect Alignment spell.
- It describes how the spell interacts with certain abilities or racial traits. Some abilities grant bonuses or immunity to spells/abilities with certain descriptors. For example certain creatures are immune to [Death] effects. Some creatures are immune to [Mind-affecting] effects, and so on.
- It determines what spells a cleric is allowed to prepare. A cleric cannot prepare spells that is on the opposite side of the alignment axis in relation to herself or her diety. A lawful good cleric, may not prepare [Chaotic] or [Evil] spells. If the cleric was neutral good, but served a Lawful Good diety, she still could not prepare [Chaotic] or [Evil] spells, because, while Chaotic is not directly opposed to the neutral alignment of the cleric, it is directly opposed to the Lawful alignment of her diety.
That is the extent of the relevance of the descriptors. Everything you need to know about descriptors and how they generally interact can be found here:
Everything else, is mentioned specifically in the rules, every time it is relevant, like the impact of the alignment-descriptor on a cleric's magic, which is mentioned specifically in the cleric class description.
There is no more to know about descriptors, as far as I am aware.
Hope it helps ;)
-Nearyn
He's not talking about the descriptors, he's talking about the spell's effect. The default assumption there is that the spell is referring to both the alignment and the subtype, not only to the subtype, unless it specifically states it refers to a subtype.
For instance, the detect evil spell detects creatures/NPCs with evil alignments in addition to creatures/NPCs with the evil subtype.
For the two spells you mentioned, protection from evil protects against any creatures with an evil alignment and against any creature with an evil subtype, and the holy storm spell deals damage against any creature of an evil alignment and any creature with the evil subtype (although it has a stronger effect against evil outsiders, who usually have the evil subtype).
The 'default' should be referring to alignment, there are actual spells that refer to subtype/aura in their descriptions (a litany or two I believe).
Basically if it says 'Evil' with no qualifier both alignment and subtype should be valid. If it says [Evil] or Evil subtype, alignment wouldn't necessarily be a factor (but could).
DM is running a house rule essentially.
The default is alignment. Subtypes are always specifically called out.
Can anyone tell me where this is actually started in the text of the book or the PRD though? Because that's what I'll need of I want to get the DM to accept that this is what is intended.
Alignment is just that an alignment.
Subtype are specific descriptors that are added to monsters as a subcategory of their creature type.
AlignmentA creature's general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment: lawful good, neutral good, chaotic good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, lawful evil, neutral evil, or chaotic evil.
Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.
All creatures have an alignment. Alignment determines the effectiveness of some spells and magic items.
Notice that it says alignment, not alignment subtype determines the effectiveness of some spells.
Creature SubTypesSome creatures have one or more subtypes. Subtypes add additional abilities and qualities to a creature.
Sample subtypes=human, elf, fire, cold, extraplanar, law, archon.
Now he will probably want to see an example of subtype being called out..
The Alignment Channel feat specifically calls out alignment subtypes.
It says "Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype."
Does this mean that, for example, someone with the Chaotic Evil subtypes, but with an actual alignment of Lawful Good, would get basically hosed by everything.
Does this mean that, for example, someone with the Chaotic Evil subtypes, but with an actual alignment of Lawful Good, would get basically hosed by everything.
Yes. One example that I have in my home campaign is a Lawful Good Succubus (lovely lady, really), who sometimes has trouble from the occasional paladin or cleric who detects and smites first, asks questions later. About the only piece of advice I can usefully give to other GMs is: don't use a character like this as a trap. If they don't make the story more interesting for the players (and "frustrating" is nothing like "interesting"), don't use them.
Zhayne the spells go by actual alignment, not alignment type in many cases, but it would make like difficult for that creature.
Alignment is just that an alignment.
Subtype are specific descriptors that are added to monsters as a subcategory of their creature type.
AlignmentA creature's general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment: lawful good, neutral good, chaotic good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, lawful evil, neutral evil, or chaotic evil.
Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.
All creatures have an alignment. Alignment determines the effectiveness of some spells and magic items.
Notice that it says alignment, not alignment subtype determines the effectiveness of some spells.
Creature SubTypesSome creatures have one or more subtypes. Subtypes add additional abilities and qualities to a creature.
Sample subtypes=human, elf, fire, cold, extraplanar, law, archon.
Now he will probably want to see an example of subtype being called out..
The Alignment Channel feat specifically calls out alignment subtypes.
It says "Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype."
That all makes perfect sense to me. I worry that the DM will see the word "some" in the alignment chapter and claim that out means Forbiddance and the other occasional spell that uses the word alignment in its text.
You mean he might ban the spells that use alignment?
You mean he might ban the spells that use alignment?
Not the worst idea.
You mean he might ban the spells that use alignment?
No, I mean that he'll say that unless a spell or ability says "evil alignment" rather than just "evil", it targets/affects only the evil subtype.
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But evil is an alignment. The "detect evil" spell as an example even refers to normal people, and they don't have subtypes.
Alignment is the default assumption.
As another example monsters that are made to fight the PC had alignment based powers.
Sample:
Glabrezu's get Chaos Hammer as a spell-like ability
You unleash chaotic power to smite your enemies. The power takes the form of a multicolored explosion of leaping, ricocheting energy. Only lawful and neutral (not chaotic) creatures are harmed by the spell.
The spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d8) to lawful creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level, maximum 10d6, to lawful outsiders) and slows them for 1d6 rounds (see the slow spell). A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the slow effect.
The spell deals only half damage against creatures who are neither lawful nor chaotic, and they are not slowed. Such a creature can reduce the damage by half again (down to one-quarter) with a successful Will save.
This spell calls out alignments not subtypes.
Now of course I have to find a spell that calls out subtypes to prove they are not the same.
No problem.. :)
Calling down a litany of anathema, you make an evil more susceptible to the attacks of good creatures. If the target is evil, it takes double damage from attacks made by creatures with a good aura (from a class feature or as a creature with the good subtype). If the target also has the evil subtype; when it is hit with attacks made by creatures with a good aura, it is also dazzled for 1d4 rounds. If this spell targets a nonevil creature (or one that lacks the evil subtype), it has no effect, and the spell is wasted.While subject to this spell, the target cannot be the target of another spell that has the word "litany" in the title.
As you can the spell differentiates between just being evil and having the evil subtype.
That Litany spell should help me make my argument when we switch to Pathfinder rules after the current campaign.
We were unable to convince the DM that the unwritten assumption is that spells and abilities are referring to alignment, despite there being spells and abilities that don't make much sense if that isn't the case.
I was hoping that the unwritten assumption was actually written somewhere in the Pathfinder rules, but at least this thread has given me more spells and feats to demonstrate that alignment really is the default.
I don't mind house rules - when they're clear - but he really does think that this is rules as intended.
If subtype is the default then why is subtype specifically called out, and not alignment. It would make more sense to specify the exception, not the base assumption. <---Food for thought.