Ranged Alchemist - Thrown Bombs or Throwing Knives?

[Will Black]

So, a player mentioned to me recently he's debating about playing an alchemist. What he knows thus far is that he wants to focus on fighting from a range, so a beastmorph/vivisectionist kind of thing is out. What do you guys think is more effective? A Grenedier bomb thrower, focusing on extra bombs and extra discoveries; or a vivisectionist that throws knives or darts or javelins or shurikens and builds for the Snap Shot feat chain?

[Michael Sayre]

That sneak attack can be harder to pull off reliably, especially at range. I'd probably go bombs.

[Matrix Dragon]

I have to say a bomb thrower would probably be far more effective right up until he runs out of bombs.

The problem that a knife thrower has is that (without house rules) he has to pay for a separate magical enchantment on each knife. If he goes the shuriken route, he has to remember that shuriken are treated as ammunition and are broken after thrown. These things make actually playing a 'thrower' character extremely difficult and expensive way of doing something that a basic archer is better at in almost every way.

I do have to say that a bomb thrower could throw knifes as a backup weapon since some of the feats overlap though.

[Blueluck]

I agree with Ssalarn & Matrix Dragon. Bombs will be better!

Elves are very good at being Alchemists and get proficiency with bows as a racial ability. By focusing on throwing bombs, you get useful archery feats (point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot). This makes archery an excellent backup plan for when you're out of bombs, or in easy fights when you don't want to expend them.

[Javaed]

Trying to sneak attack at ranged as an alchemist will be challenging. A Two-Weapon Vivisectionist that concentrates on melee and occasionally throws a dagger would be easy to make into an effective build. However, if the player is set on playing ranged, bombs will be more effective.

If you do go the Bomb Route you can go with either a throwing build or a weapon focused build. The throwing build basically just picks up the various thrown weapon feats and tries to toss bombs out with iterative attacks. Mix in some Barbarian levels for access to additional throwing rage powers & feats, plus something to do when you run out of bombs. You will run out bombs QUICKLY.

The second build is to go Grenedier. With this build you play as a blaster caster, launching one powerful attack each round. At level 4 you pick up the Explosive Missile discovery, which lets you make the ammo on a ranged attack also explode like a bomb. I would suggest a Heavy Crossbow as your weapon, since the discovery will let you load and fire the explosive bolt as a Standard action and you get a nice crit range on that attack. For feats you pick up the basic required ranged feats, and grab discoveries that give your bombs added effects. You only get one attack per round, but each attack hits hard, deals splash damage and can provide some helpful crowd control.

[Adamantine Dragon]

It is one of the great truths of the universe that given the choice between throwing knives and throwing bombs...

Bombs. Every time.

[Richard Leonhart]

well bombs are good, as long as he manages his per days well and uses alchemists fire from time to time. I would go mindchemist and probably psychonaut too. (yes, smaller dice, but I would play him as kind of support with smoke bombs and throwing lots of alchmists fire, mainly damaging by superior intelligence)

If you have guns, then you can build an absolute damage powerhouse out of a vivisectionist (beast morpher). Sap master, double barreled pistols and a few modifications and you're good to go. Everything not immune to nonlethal damage will fall ... hard. However this build needs a few levels and some money to come together, however at the beginning you can just go for throwing knifes or something like that.
Also getting people flat footed is really important, so it's every so often a first round kill (you attack flat footed touch AC), which will ruin the GMs day, and once you meet someone you can't get flat footed you're humped. No means to deal extra damage, and nothing but a gun to attack.
I would discourage the last build, it's too restrictive and too "good", trust me the damage gets ridiculous.

edit: oh and you can probably skip the extra bombs. If you use fast bombs (and try to maximize the attacks per rounds) you will run out anyhow if you only throw bombs, no matter how many extra bombs.
I would rather use bombs for special occasion (and make them special with stinking bombs or similar) and throw your 6-7 alchemists fire per round with and int-bonus of 10 or something like that.

[MiniGM]

Don't forget that there is the Blink back belt which mitigates some of the cost fr a knife or axe thrower

[Blueluck]

Here's a sample bomber. I wanted this build to be focused on bombing, but still flexible, so I dedicated 2 feats to melee and everything else to bombs/archery.

Force Bomb lets me hurt just about any enemy with a bomb, regardless of energy resistance or even etherealness. Force (ref), Stink (fort), and Confusion (will) all impair the enemy and are based on different saves, so again, I have something for everyone:)

Elf Bomber (25 pt):

Elf Alchemist (Grenadier) 10
NG Medium Humanoid (elf)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +5 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 63 (10d8)
Fort +9, Ref +14, Will +6; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee +2 Scimitar +14/+9 (1d6+7/18-20/x2+2 fire)
Ranged +2 Composite longbow (Str +0) +14/+9 (1d8+2/x3)
. . Bomb +13/+8 (5d6+7 Fire/x2)
. . Confusion Bomb (10 rds) +13/+8 (3d6+7 Fire + Confusion/x2)
. . Force Bomb +13/+8 (5d4+7 Force/x2)
. . Smoke Bomb (10 rds) +13/+8 (Smoke)
. . Stink Bomb (10 rds) +13/+8 (Stench)
Special Attacks bomb 5d6+7 (17/day) (dc 22), discoveries (confusion bomb [10 rds], fast bombs, force bomb, smoke bomb [10 rds], stink bomb [10 rds])
Alchemist (Grenadier) Spells Prepared (CL 10):
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 20, Con 10, Int 25, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +7; CMD 23
Feats Dervish Dance, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Scimitar), Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Splash Weapon Mastery, Throw Anything, Weapon Finesse
Traits Flame of the Dawnflower, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +20 (+24 jump), Craft (alchemy) +20 (+30 to create alchemical items), Disable Device +18, Fly +18, Knowledge (arcana) +20, Perception +20, Perform (dance) +2, Sleight of Hand +18, Spellcraft +20 (+22 to determine the properties of a magic item), Stealth +15, Survival +11, Use Magic Device +13 Modifiers alchemy +10
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Infernal, Orc, Sylvan
SQ alchemical weapon (swift action), directed blast, elven magic, fast poisoning (move action), mutagen (dc 22), precise bombs, staggering blast (dc 22), swift alchemy
Combat Gear (lots of potions) (lots of alchemical items)
Other Gear +2 Mithral Chain shirt, +2 Composite longbow (Str +0), +2 Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Boots of striding and springing, Cloak of resistance +2, Eyes of the eagle, Headband of vast intelligence +4 (Acrobatics, Stealth), Ring of protection +1
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Special Abilities
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Alchemical Weapon (Swift Action) (Su) Add the effects of an alchemical liquid or powder to weapon.
Alchemy +10 (Su) +10 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Bomb 5d6+7 (17/day) (DC 22) (Su) Thrown Splash Weapon deals 5d6+7 fire damage.
Confusion Bomb (10 rds) (Su) The alchemist's bombs twist the target's perception of friend and foe. A creature that takes a direct hit from a confusion bomb takes damage from the bomb and is under the effect of a confusion spell for 1 round per caster level of the alchemi
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Directed Blast (Su) Bomb does damage in 30 ft cone, attack vs one foe and rest take splash dam.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Fast Bombs (Su) An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional att
Fast Poisoning (Move Action) (Ex) Apply poison to a weapon as a move action.
Flame of the Dawnflower +2 damage with a scimitar on a critical hit.
Force Bomb (Su) When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict force damage. Force bombs deal 1d4 points of force damage, plus 1d4 points of force damage for every odd-numbered level, instead of 1d6. Creatures that take a direct hit from a force
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mutagen (DC 22) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 100 min.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Bombs (Ex) Select Int mod squares to not be affected by splash effects.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Smoke Bomb (10 rds) (Su) Thick smoke fills twice the splash radius, obscuring sight beyond 5 ft. as fog cloud.
Staggering Blast (DC 22) (Su) On a critical hit with a bomb, foe is staggered 1d4+1 rds (Fort part).
Stink Bomb (10 rds) (Su) Smoke bombs also nauseate living in area for d4+1 rds after leave, as stinking cloud.
Swift Alchemy (Ex) You can construct alchemical items in half the normal time.
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.

[Silent Saturn]

As long as your archetype doesn't lose Poison Use, you can throw poisoned shuriken as an alternative to bombs.

Actually, the best weapon I can think of for an alchemist to fall back on is the Stingchuck. You still get to add your Int to damage with them because they count as a "thrown splash weapon", they have a chance to inflict nausea as well as continuing to deal damage over several turns, and RAW they cost nothing.

Actually finding someone who sells them, and carrying them around with you, is another matter.

[MiniGM]

Stingchucks are decently heavy though

[blackbloodtroll]

MiniGM wrote:

Stingchucks are decently heavy though

Well, Muleback Cords are one of the first items an Alchemist would want to get.

[Ciaran Barnes]

Don't bring a knife to a bomb fight.