Goblin Squad Member
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So in themepark MMOs the developer often goes to great lengths to entertain the player with storylines, populating them sequentially so all the player has to do is click his way from start to end without ever really having to engage his imagination.
A sandbox game leaves the bulk of those sorts of entertainmnets for the players to engineer. presumably using in game features to flesh out the stories.
Surely it can be done given enough props and locations, just as some players in themepark MMOs occasionally manage a little independent role play.
What tools can we think of that we should indicate to GW as desirable for the purpose of our storytelling?
Props and emotes surely... but which ones, and how would we prioritize such?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Player grps will be started for roleplay, there will be outposts, you will see that alliances will be created, fueds will start etc.
What ever you do in the game will reflect on something. If you want a good example, look up the eve vid for retribution, that in a way tells you something what can and will happen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm already thinking about my character's "end game", when his adventures have ended and he passes on the torch to a new member of his "family".
I'm seriously considering upgrading my $100 pledge to the $400 pledge just so I can create the backstory and previous generation of my character. This way I would be creating the middle portion if the story when the game launches.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Politics and religion. More RP from those two than all other aspects combined :) If I can try to steal a throne or burn a church down, then I'm set for a long time.
Emotes and speech bubbles are all I really think are needed. Some props would be nice, but not mandatory.
Another nice addition would be some sort of major congregation area (or several) where characters could gather for whatever reason (drinking, healing, merchants etc...) which leads to more interaction and roleplay. There has to be that chance to see and talk to that loner druid once in a while.
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Goblin Squad Member
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something else i would like to see would be lore "quests". Basically they wouldnt be quests, but maybe in the ruins you find a book that describes an area, if you can put all the pieces together maybe you can discover the lore of something specific, a part of history.
And add a book to your house.
So in themepark MMOs the developer often goes to great lengths to entertain the player with storylines, populating them sequentially so all the player has to do is click his way from start to end without ever really having to engage his imagination.
A sandbox game leaves the bulk of those sorts of entertainmnets for the players to engineer. presumably using in game features to flesh out the stories.
Surely it can be done given enough props and locations, just as some players in themepark MMOs occasionally manage a little independent role play.
What tools can we think of that we should indicate to GW as desirable for the purpose of our storytelling?
Props and emotes surely... but which ones, and how would we prioritize such?
Two things come to mind. Actually they are one thing but thinking in terms of how the game will see them, they are separate.
The ability to write in a book and on scrolls. I see this as being a great way for the players to add content to the game in many forms. Player created quests, player created scavenger hunts, player fiction, lore, history. Even random scrawlings would add to the realism of a sandbox world.
This would require a few things from the programmers that I'm not sure they want to bother with though. It would require the coding for players to 'write' obviously. But it would also require the ability to place books and scrolls in the world. MMOs can't track millions of things dropped on the ground, so perhaps containers could be static and things could be placed within them. What I mean is say you cleared out a abandoned tower. In the tower could be a chest, and you could place a scroll in the chest and just walk away. The scroll would be there for the next traveler that comes along and looks in that chest. Also it would require the ability to create blank books and scrolls likely using the appropriate crafting skill.
This would also open the door for people to advertise events and things happening in the world. Even a newspaper if your that industrious as has been suggested elsewhere in the forums. There are so many things that you could do with this that I can't list them all, but I think it would be a cool addition to this new world and this totally new type of game that we all will be making. :)
Is this what you meant Being?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Two things come to mind. Actually they are one thing but thinking in terms of how the game will see them, they are separate.The ability to write in a book and on scrolls. I see this as being a great way for the players to add content to the game in many forms. Player created quests, player created scavenger hunts, player fiction, lore, history. Even random scrawlings would add to the realism of a sandbox world.
This would require a few things from the programmers that I'm not sure they want to bother with though. It would require the coding for players to 'write' obviously. But it would also require the ability to place books and scrolls in the world. MMOs can't track millions of things dropped on the ground, so perhaps containers could be static and things could be placed within them. What I mean is say you cleared out a abandoned tower. In the tower could be a chest, and you could place a scroll in the chest and just walk away. The scroll would be there for the next traveler that comes along and looks in that chest. Also it would require the ability to create blank books and scrolls likely using the appropriate crafting skill.
This would also open the door for people to advertise events and things happening in the world. Even a newspaper if your that industrious as has been suggested elsewhere in the forums. There are so many things that you could do with this that I can't list them all, but I think it would be a cool addition to this new world and this totally new type of game that we all will be making. :)
Is this what you meant Being?
Precisely.
You know I once wondered whether it might be possible to use a similar mechanism to cause a semi-automated system for player generated content.
The victorious player might gain opportunity to leave a scroll somewhere interesting, but my thought took a further twist. Perhaps it would be insteresting to lay it out here. Possibly it might trigger a thought for the devs, or perhaps a thought for players interested in doing something similar, but manually.
I once imagined it would be neat to be able to leave a scroll in a chest in a troll lair or tower ruin that would trigger a new quest for the finder, whoever and whenever that might be.
Knowing how random number generation works, and how that mechanism can interact with lists of variables, I imagined the player to write a brief backstory, and then populate it with some variables, such as the adventure level of the new dungeon, the type of monster inhabiting it, and the difficulty/value to be expected. He or she would then place the scroll wheresoever they might choose, or perhaps elect to hand it to a particularly deserving guildmate.
The system would take the data provided by the originating player including the brief backstory and populate one of several premade dungeons with creatures of the selected type (forest, undead, humanoid, etc.) and appropriate level and difficulty keying of the value of the treasure to be discovered there. It would also identify where the dungeon entrance could be found.
The dungeon itself would then actually generate when the receiving player and his party arrived at the coordinates described in the scroll.
I understand that there is already something rather similar already planned: the scroll could simply be an additional delivery mechanism.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Other desirable RP tools:
Placeable persistent containers: So that once I am rather more powerful and well-off I can put some decent loot in it and place it in a lair, then relate a tale to a young roleplayer that he or she might 'discover' it.
Maps: an ability to generate a map of a hex displaying landmarks/geography and an 'X' at the location I was in. The map should then be a scroll I could give someone, or leave in an inconspicuous place where it could be 'discovered'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I read in another thread about someone wanting to pillage their enemies town and drink their ale. As good as that sounds in your head and imagination, few games have reached that kind of detail. It would be nice if this sort of thing could really have some sort of implementation, and not just "we win, you loose" after a 3 week long siege, with some exchange of coin maybe.
So what we need is:
Settlements having actual storage facilities (like a winecellar)where high level crafting goods can be stored;
An emote for players pushing a barrel in front of them. :)
Thinking of what Ryan said, that if a dynamic asset is not used in the world, it should not be there (like a horse idling), I still think this could be possible without the game having to track thousands of barrels and crates in storage rooms doing nothing untill some conqueror wheels them out.
Let a settlement have a storage facility, that at any point shows you 1 of lets say 5 phases of filling up. From totally empty (empty room) to half full (some barrels, a few crates, some stacked shelves) to full (filled to the brim with stuff). Simply showing 1 of 5 states of a facility should not burden the servers.
Together with the barrel rolling emote, this could make for some roleplaying opportunities.
On arelated note, I would like it if a settlements wealth would actually show in the gameworld: the more assets (coin, crafting goods) a settlement has to its disposal, the larger, more ornate or more numerous their storagefacilities should be.
On arelated note, I would like it if a settlements wealth would actually show in the gameworld: the more assets (coin, crafting goods) a settlement has to its disposal, the larger, more ornate or more numerous their storagefacilities should be.
I think this will be covered under the building upgrades menu. Upgrading a building likely will offer better, perhaps more storage room, so towns will have a benefit for upgrading their buildings.
And they also allocate maintenance costs. I wonder if a town quits paying for infrastructure maintenance will have their buildings deteriorate over time looking shabby etc...?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I read in another thread about someone wanting to pillage their enemies town and drink their ale. As good as that sounds in your head and imagination, few games have reached that kind of detail. It would be nice if this sort of thing could really have some sort of implementation, and not just "we win, you loose" after a 3 week long siege, with some exchange of coin maybe.
Chances are, that was me. MAN do I want to drink the booze of my conquered enemies, preferably while having them shine my boots and serve me. But only if they started the fight, I'm a good guy. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I find myself going back to Ultima Online. Half of what was possible in that game would likely be avoided by game designers today due to the various issues (for players and servers) that they might cause, but they truly did increase the level of player influence upon the world in which they lived.
1. Writable Books
I agree with the idea of writable books. This opens up the possibility of creating your own lore, rather than depending only upon that which is provided. Also, it allows for a more IC means of communication...slipping a written note to someone, enabling a player to truly RP a courier, and the possibility that if killed along the route, the message could actually be stolen or intercepted.
2. Droppable Items
As much of a burden as it is on servers, I have found nothing so valuable to RP in an MMO as the ability to place an object on the ground so that others can pick it up. As soon as you can do this, it allows you the ability to create a whole backstory on why that object is there, who left it, and allows you to place an important object in a hard to reach or dangerous location, thus creating the focus for a player-made quest.
True, it may lead to a pile of clutter, especially in populated areas, but even this can lead to more RP. I had a character in UO who never left town. His whole income was made on recycling and trading other players' cast-offs. As in the cable reality show "Auction Kings", I would trade up for better items until I had something worth selling, or I would melt down discarded weapons and armor for iron ingots, sell the least wanted items back to NPC vendors if possible, or at least toss them in recycle bins near the bank to keep the street clean. But the amount of RP generated by playing "Bob the Garbageman" would never have occurred if not for being able to set items on the ground.
This also lends itself to creating temporary camps (a few blankets and bedrolls laid out), markets (a table topped goods), baracades (we used to build walls with logs or crates), etc.
As far as the tracking effort caused a server, a timer could be used to wipe the item after a set number of minutes unless locked down in a player owned building.
Unfortunately, when gear and items became nothing more than icons in your inventory, all these possibilities disappeared.
3. Maps
I don't know how they currently intend to handle our view of the world, that is, how much of the world will appear on our version of the world map, but I would love to have both game generated maps and perhaps a player mapping skill. Both could be discovered or sold to people, and when double clicked, add to your completed view of the world map. A found piece of parchment as a loot drop that fills in an otherwise blank hex of the world or an entrepreneurial adventurer who maps out new trade routes or settlement locations, then sells them to less traveled players...both would be great fun.
4. Multiple Character Slots.
As a player who often ran plots for other role-players, the ability to generate RPed NPCs or plot characters was huge. These characters often required no particular skills but quite often needed to be disposable (given how often they met with an untimely death). In a world with only one or two characters per account, those slots are already taken by a person's permanent characters...characters that may not fit the role required by the plot coordinator and whom the players certainly don't want dying permanently. I know I have read that there may be multiple character slots in PFO, but I thought it worth pointing out another reasons for their need other than alt and mule creation. There's nothing like a truly helpless plot NPC who will be permanently killed if you fail, for adding realism to an escort quest.
5. Sitting & Lying Down
As minor as it seems, nothing nibbles away at immersion more than being in a tavern where no one can sit. Similarly, if I'm RPing a debilitating injury, the severity of that injury is far better acted if I'm prone.
That's enough for one post. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hobbs, great point about the droppable Items. Even in Everquest this presented a lot of possibilities. In light of this, Ryans answer on the "mounts should stay in the world" feature kinda worried me.
I understand that they have to watch serverload and such, but what PFO needs more then any other MMO is gamesystems that provoke PLAYER CREATIVITY and PLAYER ACTION. You give some great examples of this in your second point. Gamesystems ideally should be designed such, that any excess or unexpected behavior that such a system produces becomes in fact an incentive for actions from other players.
Any restriction that the game-engine puts on players *could* be a missed chance for emergent gameplay by the players themselves. This is a tricky balance, I will admit.
However the restriction of items not being able to be dropped in a sandbox world would be a very severe one, and worrysome imo. Your suggestion of a timer on such items would be a good solution, and undoubtedly such solution can be refined further.
Just one example from my own memory: once in Everquest I was waiting on the docks for the boat together with a group of people. Suddenly I saw a sword appear on the ground. I quickly picked it up, and kept silent, even when someone asked if they had seen a sword that he had accidentally dropped. I felt ashamed and thrilled that I did not speak up. It was an intense moment. In PFO such an action could maybe flag you for PvP or whatever.
Another fun trick was to drop a coin on the ground as an Enchanter and then use a spell that would turn you into the nearest item in the world: in this case, a coin. :) Then pick up your own coin and wait untill some player tried to pick you up..... I know, silly, but this was the fun to be had in a MMO that was not yet cemented shut with all sorts of restricting systems, only to provide for a more streamlined "experience" for the masses. At some point they made it impossible to drop coins on the ground because people started spelling dirty words on the ground with them. Hopefully in PFO this sort of behavior will lead to war instead. ;)
@Hroderich: indeed, it was your post. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Part of the reason I was thinking 'persistent placeable container' is to reduce clutter for the server to track. We're going to want to leave stuff in places for meaningful reasons, but we also don't want a bazillion tin shortswords piling up on the ground outside the newb rez circle since everyone threaded their best weapon and the tin sword was just extra weight and couln't be sold.
So if we had these specialized, somewhat expensive containers we could pack things into and leave as our prop, then the container and its contents could have a special flag in its record for the server to recognize that we don't want this particular dropped item to be swept up by the maintenance cycle.
Part of the reason I was thinking 'persistent placeable container' is to reduce clutter for the server to track. We're going to want to leave stuff in places for meaningful reasons, but we also don't want a bazillion tin shortswords piling up on the ground outside the newb rez circle since everyone threaded their best weapon and the tin sword was just extra weight and couln't be sold.
So if we had these specialized, somewhat expensive containers we could pack things into and leave as our prop, then the container and its contents could have a special flag in its record for the server to recognize that we don't want this particular dropped item to be swept up by the maintenance cycle.
Not a bad idea. It could be utilized with any thing, like placing a map into a map case and dropping it on the ground. Or placing a map showing the route a caravan will take into a map case, and leaving it somewhere as a dead drop for a party of bandits whom you have a deal with.