That's my biggest issue here. No class should be one of the "weaker" classes. It's the reason I've been worried about going back to 3.x. Is there any class you could suggest that doesn't require a ton of book keeping but fits my concept?
This is 3rd edition--book keeping is part of the game.
Don't pretend there aren't "weaker" classes in every edition of D&D, though. It's part of the game. Not a part I like, but part of it. The lead developer of 3rd edition has specifically stated some choices are intentionally weaker (while still appearing strong) as a sort of Easter egg for those who know the rules better.
Vivisectionist is unquestionably the best class with Sneak Attack, but they're pseudo spellcasters, too.
The best class with the least book keeping that can be roguish is probably a Ranger. You can be melee or ranged (including using a two-handed weapon) and don't need to flank all the time to be useful. Plenty of stealth, many of the same skills and features (evasion, camouflage, etc.), and Favored Enemy can be your "I'm good at killing X" feature. Even Favored Terrain can be like casing the area before a hit.
Rangers have spells, which may annoy you, but you can trade that for "eh" traps or pretty decent Skirmisher abilities. Or, and I think this is the better option, just pick your favorite spell and memorize it over and over (like Lead Blades or something) and be happy you can use wands. As much as I hate preparing spells and like the Skirmish abilities, it's hard to turn down Instant Enemy and Terrain Bond.
That's my biggest issue here. No class should be one of the "weaker" classes. It's the reason I've been worried about going back to 3.x. Is there any class you could suggest that doesn't require a ton of book keeping but fits my concept?This is 3rd edition--book keeping is part of the game.
Don't pretend there aren't "weaker" classes in every edition of D&D, though. It's part of the game. Not a part I like, but part of it. The lead developer of 3rd edition has specifically stated some choices are intentionally weaker (while still appearing strong) as a sort of Easter egg for those who know the rules better.
Vivisectionist is unquestionably the best class with Sneak Attack, but they're pseudo spellcasters, too.
The best class with the least book keeping that can be roguish is probably a Ranger. You can be melee or ranged (including using a two-handed weapon) and don't need to flank all the time to be useful. Plenty of stealth, many of the same skills and features (evasion, camouflage, etc.), and Favored Enemy can be your "I'm good at killing X" feature. Even Favored Terrain can be like casing the area before a hit.
Rangers have spells, which may annoy you, but you can trade that for "eh" traps or pretty decent Skirmisher abilities. Or, and I think this is the better option, just pick your favorite spell and memorize it over and over (like Lead Blades or something) and be happy you can use wands. As much as I hate preparing spells and like the Skirmish abilities, it's hard to turn down Instant Enemy and Terrain Bond.
Perfect balance can not be achieved in a game with options, no. However, 3.x's Ivory Tower design (which is what you refer to) is hard to get around. I only have 5 days to decide what to play, and I don't want to end up being the gimp of the group.
I wish he allowed 3.5 material. The Swordsage is pretty much exactly what I would want.
Ah ha! the 3.5 Sordsage isn't a separate class in Pathfinder, but a weapon-wielding monk!
.
For you, I'd suggest a Martial Artist monk because it:
- Allows a monk to be of any alignment, which goes better with "assassin" than being lawful.
- Trades Ki Pool for an ability you can use as often as you like. (less daily tracking)
- Gets access to fighter-only feats, including Weapon Specialization.
I wish he allowed 3.5 material. The Swordsage is pretty much exactly what I would want.Ah ha! the 3.5 Sordsage isn't a separate class in Pathfinder, but a weapon-wielding monk! For you, I'd suggest a Martial Artist monk because it:
- Allows a monk to be of any alignment, which goes better with "assassin" than being lawful.
- Trades Ki Pool for an ability you can use as often as you like. (less daily tracking)
- Gets access to fighter-only feats, including Weapon Specialization.
Here's a sample build at level 5.
Martial Artist (36 pt)
Male Human Monk (Martial Artist) 5
CN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 19, flat-footed 16 (+1 armor, +3 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 43 (5d8+10)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +9
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune fatigue
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee +1 Temple sword +10 (1d8+15/19-20/x2)
. . . or Unarmed strike +8 (1d8+8/x2)
Ranged Shuriken +6 (1d2+6/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows
+1 Temple sword +10/+10 (1d8+15/19-20/x2)
Unarmed strike +8/+8 (1d8+8/x2)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +11 (+13 Grappling); CMD 28 (30 vs. Grapple)
Feats Cornugon Stun, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack -1/+2, Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 16), Weapon Focus (Temple sword), Weapon Specialization (Temple sword)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +11 (+15 jump, +16 to jump), Climb +10, Escape Artist +11, Perception +11, Ride +7, Sense Motive +8, Stealth +11, Swim +10
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus +4, exploit weakness +8, fast movement (+10'), high jump, maneuver training, pain points, stunning fist (stun, fatigue), unarmed strike (1d8)
Other Gear +1 Temple sword, Shuriken (20), Belt of giant strength +2, Bracers of armor +1, Cloak of resistance +1, Ring of protection +1, 166 GP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +4 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Cornugon Stun You may use Stunning Fist when making melee attacks with special monk weapons as well as when making unarmed attacks.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Exploit Weakness +8 (Ex) At 4th level, as a swift action, a martial artist can observe a creature or object to find its weak point by making a Wisdom check and adding his monk level against a DC of 10 + the object's hardness or the target's CR. If the check succeeds, the martial artist gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls until the end of his turn, and any attacks he makes until the end of his turn ignore the creature or object’s DR or hardness. A martial artist may instead use this ability as a swift action to analyze the movements and expressions of one creature within 30 feet, granting a bonus on Sense Motive checks and Reflex saves and a dodge bonus to AC against that opponent equal to 1/2 his monk level until the start of his next turn.
Fast Movement (+10')
Flurry of Blows +3/+3 (Ex)
High Jump (+5) (Ex) +5 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immune to Fatigue You are immune to the fatigued condition.
Improved Grapple
Improved Unarmed Strike
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Pain Points (Ex) At 3rd level, a martial artist's advanced knowledge of humanoid anatomy grants a +1 bonus on critical hit confirmation rolls and increases the DC of his stunning fist and quivering palm by 1.
Power Attack -1/+2
Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 16) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Is the monk any good? By everything I've seen and read, it appears to be the most underpowered class in PF.
Would the same, more or less, be true of the dino shamans?
Would the same, more or less, be true of the dino shamans?
My guess is that the feeling is dino shamans benefit from huge wildshaping options.
Is the monk any good? By everything I've seen and read, it appears to be the most underpowered class in PF.
Recent changes made Monks slightly better. They're still good for a couple levels dip, Zen Archer is crazy awesome, and Sensei can still make a great support build. However, all in all, they're still in the weakest tier of classes--the good news is that they're no longer their own special tier of weak class weaker than all the other sub par classes.
Rogues would be in the same tier as Monks, but rogues are 100% obsolete. There is no reason to be one because other classes and archetypes can do everything a Rogue can do, but better.
Would the same, more or less, be true of the dino shamans?My guess is that the feeling is dino shamans benefit from huge wildshaping options.
Exactly--Dionsaurs have much more wildly varied forms to choose from, including forms of all sizes, flying and aquatic forms, forms with special abilities like poison, etc. It's the extreme variety that wins for them.
You basically get all the nice summoning buffs and suffer little to no wildshaping penalty (you delay two levels before you can start shifting, but you can immediately shift into your best forms.
So, I will be completely overshadowed by playing a martial artist monk in this group? This is hard, lol.
So, I will be completely overshadowed by playing a martial artist monk in this group? This is hard, lol.
Not necessarily--don't underestimate the ability for the other players to suck.
Wizards are one of the most powerful classes in 3rd edition, but I've seen tons of dumbasses play wizards and make them appear terrible.
If your group is full of optimizers, yeah, your monk is going to be a joke. If your group is fairly typical, you can optimize such that you'll contribute fine.
So, I will be completely overshadowed by playing a martial artist monk in this group? This is hard, lol.Not necessarily--don't underestimate the ability for the other players to suck.
Wizards are one of the most powerful classes in 3rd edition, but I've seen tons of dumbasses play wizards and make them appear terrible.
If your group is full of optimizers, yeah, your monk is going to be a joke. If your group is fairly typical, you can optimize such that you'll contribute fine.
Yeah, I don't want to have to rely on other players holding back in order to feel like I'm contributing.
Is there a melee class that fits my concept that doesn't rely on spells? The ranger is fine. I don't mind spells as a supplemental feature. I just loathe relying completely on daily resources.
What about the urban ranger? Can it fill the rogue's shoes a bit? I was looking at the vivisectionist, but I would like to have a few more skills.
Is there a melee class that fits my concept that doesn't rely on spells? The ranger is fine. I don't mind spells as a supplemental feature. I just loathe relying completely on daily resources.
I also hate daily resources : /
Rangers have a spell-less option, Skirmisher, which, while nobody would argue is more optimal than spells, is still quite viable. I also like the feel of the trapper, even if they are a little weak--but they can fill the trapfinding Rogue role.
What about the urban ranger? Can it fill the rogue's shoes a bit?
A regular Ranger can, so an urban ranger definitely can.
I was looking at the vivisectionist, but I would like to have a few more skills.
You're forgetting that Alchemists are Intelligence based, so you're likely to have a similar number of skills as a Ranger.
You're forgetting that Alchemists are Intelligence based, so you're likely to have a similar number of skills as a Ranger.
Yes, but they won't have the class skills.
What about the Inquisitor? How are they? If they're anything like the 4e Avenger, I'm sold. :P
What about the Inquisitor? How are they? If they're anything like the 4e Avenger, I'm sold. :P
Yeah, absolutely. Basically, all the full casters and Summoners are best, then all the 3/4 (Bard, Inquisitor, Alchemist, etc.) and 1/2 casters (Paladin, Ranger), then probably Barbarian and Fighter, then Monks and Cavaliers taking up the rear.
Can the Inquisitor do what I'm looking for? Stealthy assassin type and melee skirmisher?
Eh, I decided to go Ranger. Keeping it fairly simple. I just took a trait that adds disable device so I can perform some rogue-ish duties. I don't like what the Urban Ranger gives up.
Now the only thing is... switch hitter, melee, or archery?
Why won't it let me edit my posts?
I'm just wondering if the Ninja would really bad that bad, or if I should go with the Ranger and just take a trait for disable device?
I think the biggest problem I'm having is that it's only a 3 person party so far. It's hard to fill gaps when so many gaps are open. I'm trying to find us 2 more players.
Ninja can be fun!
Ninja can be fun!
Yeah, but are they effective mechanically? I don't want to end up playing sidekick or red shirt to the other group members.
Ok, how does this stat array look using the point buy mentioned above? 14 20 14 12 12 14