Spells known for Arcane Trickster, and Stealth + Expeditious Retreat

[seebs]

So, these questions have a common theme, which is that they are applicable to an Arcane Trickster.

Question #1: rog/wiz/arcane-trickster. The "+1 level of existing class" spell modifier says "Spells known (for spontaneous casters)". I have inferred that wizards don't get their two new spells known for gaining a caster level, because that is a benefit other than those listed. Is that correct? Is it intentional? I am sort of inclined to think that, if the +1 level of caster ability leads to a new spell level being available, having no spells of that level at all sorta sucks.

Question #2: What the heck is a "normal speed"? Stealth says that you can move at half your normal speed, or between half and less-than-full speed. (Other sources say there is discussion of changing the latter to just be "over half and up to full" because the intermediate state is awkward.)

Specifically, if you have cast expeditious retreat, what is your "normal" speed? This term is not defined. The text "normal speed" occurs in the Advanced Race Guide, but as a racial trait which means "having a base speed of 30 instead of a base speed of 20".

My interpretation is that your "normal speed" is "base speed as modified by encumbrance", so if you are carrying a light load, and have a normal base speed of 30, and have expeditious retreat up, you can stealth at 30 without penalty, 35-55 (or 35-60 maybe) at -5, and cannot hustle or run while stealthed anyway.

If you add in the rogue talent "fast stealth", you can then stealth at 60 without penalty.

This seems pretty powerful, but it does consume a rogue talent and require you to have access to a spell (although I suppose you could buy that with two more rogue talents; minor magic as a prereq, and major magic as the third talent).

Thoughts?

[Michael Sayre]

I believe when this PrC first came out in older editions, wizards didn't have the built in spell gain and had to either research their spells or copy them from scrolls or spellbooks, so you have some slightly old text that got carried over there. Either way, those Rogue levels should help you "liberate" some level appropriate spell scrolls...
Normal speed should refer to your base land speed, modified by armor or encumbrance. I do not think this is meant to include enhancement bonuses like Expeditious Retreat, but it's a rarely used term that's something of a hold-over from older editions.

[seebs]

Ssalarn wrote:

I believe when this PrC first came out in older editions, wizards didn't have the built in spell gain and had to either research their spells or copy them from scrolls or spellbooks, so you have some slightly old text that got carried over there. Either way, those Rogue levels should help you "liberate" some level appropriate spell scrolls...

I am pretty sure wizards have had 2 free spells every level since 3.0E, no? Hmm, goes checks. Both 3.0 and 3.5 had two free spells, with the limitation that specialists cannot take a spell from a prohibited school, and must take at least one spell from their specialist school.

3.0 added Arcane Trickster in Tome and Blood; there, it just says an increased caster level and increased spells per day. It doesn't mention spells known at all. 3.5 moved it to the DMG, with no changes to that.

So it seems to me that the "or spells known" is new with Pathfinder. It's probably there to patch the obvious problem that if you're a 4 sorc/3 rogue and go Arcane Trickster, after 10 levels of arcane trickster, you can cast 7th level spells, but you don't know any spells above level 2. So I'm sort of inferring that the intent of the rule is to fix that, but leave the free new spells for wizards out.

Quote:

Normal speed should refer to your base land speed, modified by armor or encumbrance. I do not think this is meant to include enhancement bonuses like Expeditious Retreat, but it's a rarely used term that's something of a hold-over from older editions.

Neither 3.0 nor 3.5 defines the term. Both use it in the hide and move silently descriptions. 3.0 does have a glossary entry for "normal", meaning "unharmed and unafflicted, or standard". 3.5 drops it.

3.5 monks have an enhancement bonus to speed; 3.5 barbarians have a fast movement increase to their speed which is not specified as a bonus type. The only thing I can find on speed modifiers or base speed is that you add all modifiers first, then modify for armor or load.

3.0 expeditious retreat doubles running and jumping speeds, and says these increases count as enhancement bonuses. 3.5 adds 30 feet to base land speed as an enhancement bonus, which it points out also affects jumping; it's basically identical to PF.

Looking at hide and move silently, however, was extremely rewarding.

3.0: Both hide and move silently have identical language, stating that you can use them without penalty at up to half your "normal speed", and that you are at a -5 penalty "at more than half and up to your full speed", and both give you a -20 penalty for running or charging.

3.5: Both skills adopt the "less than full speed" language. Hide says "You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty." Move Silently says "You can move at up to one-half your normal speed at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your full speed, you take a -5 penalty."

There's never anything which defines what your "normal speed" is (or what your full speed is, for that matter). You could read this edit as implying that there is a difference between normal and full, which is why it changed, or implying that there isn't, which is why the same rule is written two different ways.

My guess is that this was a half-completed edit to fix the problem of people claiming they could move at 30' in heavy armor by stealthing at a -5 penalty, since they could move at their "full" speed.

3.0 says your speed while unarmored is sometimes called your "base" speed. 3.5 has a glossary entry for unarmored speed, calling it "base land speed". Neither appears to define "full" speed.

Pathfinder also talks about half speed and full speed under Acrobatics, and here we get a useful distinction: "You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes."

Climb (in Pathfinder) says you can move at one-quarter your "normal speed". Fly talks about descending at "normal speed".

Caltrops cause you to move at "half normal speed"; spike stones and the like "reduce his speed by one-third".

The Fleet feat increases your base speed by five feet. It does not specify a bonus type.

A bunch of feats, like Run, use "speed" and "normal speed" interchangeably. e.g., the Run feat lets you run at five times your normal speed, or four times your speed in heavy armor.

Ooh, interesting. Under Counterspells: "You may still move at your normal speed, since ready is a standard action."

And Air Walk says "The maximum upward or downard angle possible is 45 degrees, at a rate equal to half the air walker's normal speed."

Floating Disk: "will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round."

Haste: "All of the hasted creatures modes of movement (...) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement."

Basically: Throughout all this stuff, it seems that similar effects are pretty much equally likely to say "half your speed" or "half your normal speed", and so on. I am pretty sure "normal speed" just means "speed", and "speed" is the value you get by:

1. Starting with your base land speed as determined by race.
2. Adding any modifiers or penalties, remembering that multiple bonuses of the same type do not stack.
3. Adjusting for load or armor.

[Dragonchess Player]

Question 1- A wizard who takes a prestige class that grants additional spell progression increases their caster level and gains increased prepared spell slots, but does not gain any "free" spells in their spellbook. Core Rulebook, pg. 79 is perfectly clear on this point under Spellbooks: "At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast..." (emphasis mine). Then again, it's not that difficult to find/loot enemy spellbooks, copy from other wizards (Core Rulebook pg. 219), quest (adventure hook!) for spellbooks with rare spells, or even perform research (pg. 219, again) unless your GM is imposing a whole bunch of restrictions of spell availability.

Question 2- "Normal speed" is a character's base speed after any modifications from bonuses, penalties, and armor/load. It is functionally equivalent to "the distance travelled with a normal move action" or "hustle" in tactical movement (Core Rulebook, pg. 170). Note that certain action types (i.e., charge, withdraw) modify the distance a character can travel in a round. Also note that modifications for armor/load are usually applied after any bonuses to a character's base speed (see the table under Armor and Encumbrance for Other Base Speeds on pg. 170).

[seebs]

I thought it seemed pretty clear, but I am not sure why sorcerers and bards get new spells known from Arcane Trickster, and wizards don't.

And yeah, that was what I thought normal speed meant, I just couldn't find any actual definition that said so specifically.

[Dragonchess Player]

Because spontaneous casters don't have any way to add to spells known other than by gaining levels (except by spending a feat every odd level on Expanded Arcana).

[A highly regarded expert]

Dragonchess has it all right.

As a highly regarded expert, and the ultimate authority on all things related to the arcane trickster, I say unto you; heed his words. They are true to the rules.

[Barry Armstrong]

RAI, in my opinion, your "normal speed" is your unaltered base speed from race, or with the inclusion of permanent bonuses such as Monk/Barbarian levels or the "Fleet" feat and temporary bonuses such as Haste and Expeditious Retreat.

This can make for some fabulous mobility for Stealth/Fast Stealth characters.

[seebs]

Okay, works for me. FWIW, I'd reached the same conclusion on Arcane Trickster, but the GM told me to take the extra spells. (I'm joining an existing campaign, so I'm starting at level 8, so this is not entirely unreasonable.) And I'd also reached the conclusion that "normal speed" meant "after bonuses, penalties, and modifiers like armor or load" speed, and the GM agreed.

I just wondered whether there was something I'd missed that made the meaning of "your normal speed" explicitly distinct from "your speed", or explained the ambiguity.

Definitely looking forward to being able to move 60' (or possibly 55') in stealth without penalties.