RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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(nods)
I agree, Matt. Finding out about that at the table, or at the last minute, would be a rude surprise. In that case, if I were you, I'd probably walk / play a pre-gen. (And I probably wouldn't be in a mood to play a pre-gen.)
I was imagining that such a table-ban was a standing policy (either the store or the local group) and not a surprise.
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I then find out that the GM has decided to say no computers at the table.
Matthew, I cant speak for Erosthenes, but my post was regarding the policy of the store I play in, not my policy. I dont enforce it any more heavily than I have to (meaning pretty much all I do is nod in agreement with him when he brings it up to someone, which isnt often), but it is the policy of the place, nonetheless.
I am well aware of Paizo's acceptance of the PDFs as legal sources and sometimes even encourage people to buy those instead of the physical books at the store, but I make sure they are all aware that if they do, I suggest printing the pages and bringing those and not the laptop/tablet, since the policy is in place. I wont stop anyone from using the laptop at my table, but like I said, the owner might take issue with it.
Also, like Chris said, you are not following the spirit of the rules if you are intentionally trying to be a pain about providing the proof you need. Someone who invited me to look over their *intentionally annoying copy of materials* would be invited not to use said materials at my table.
Edit: Also, Im not sure where the idea of copying the files comes from, but I, personally, would most definitely not be asking for copies of the pdfs to proove anything. If the owner was throwing a fit, I'd probably just ask to look over your pdfs on your laptop quickly before asking you to set it aside (meaning out of sight, lol).
For someone who is as passionate about that policy as the owner is, he doesnt pay that much attention to people who might be abusing his policy, lol.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Seth,
I took 'your area' as being an area, not a store. Here in Columbus we rotate through 4 (soon to be 5!) stores and games. 'Area' has quite a meaning. (And even then there are the realities of the area. Only Fog of Dusk (and maybe Soldiery) have Wifi, so I keep my cable to tether in case I have to look up something on the net, as a GM or to help a GM.) So I bristled at my reading of a poor turn of words, I appologize. Like I pointed out above, I do try to keep good relations with hte FLGS. (If I had room, I'd have walked home with an Aurora Dropship Saturday)
@Off in the shower.
I'm an old man, I have lots of dice :P. And I have dice I *won't* use. MY Second Darkness dice for example I know they're hard to read. Heck, sometimes I do a double take on my RotRL set, because at first glance the rune on the d20 looks like a 2. I have Donna's dice tray and roll in that.
If someone brought an electronic die roller, I'd be fine with it unless it was rolling *really* well. Then I'd want to see it.
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The only issue I have with Laptops are space, Tablets are better because they take up less space and there are not wires I can trip on.
If I am at a convention with small tables, if the laptop is taking up too much space I ask the player if they can put it away so we have room on the table.
When I am playing I have my iPad, small pile of dice, Pen, Pencil, eraser and character (Pulled out of the binder) that is all. I take up very little space.
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@Seth,
I took 'your area' as being an area, not a store.
I agree, though so far 90% of the PFS games in my area are at that store. No others in the area, though I hope to expand my 'area' a bit this year, into parts of IN and KY that dont seem to have any other VOs nearby. Might be able to add some extra venues in then. ;)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Wow, that brings up old memories. That used to be my haunt back when I was in college in the mid 90's.Soldiery)
FEh, I hung out at the Drowsy Dragon. I still miss that place. :-(
@ Chris. I use a mini, myself. Not much room and I bring my own surge protector. Will have full prints of the scenarios I GM at Origins though, too risky to *just* rely on the baby beast.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Would you get upset if I told you you had to use real dice and not a dice rolling program?
Dice rolling programs are so impersonal!
My dice have been misbehaving of late - they didn't seem to want to roll anything higher than a 5 (except when I was rolling for the bad guys - then they'd show off. One of them rolled three natural 20s back-to-back-to-back last week; crit threat, re-roll because of misfortune, and crit confirmation). So at DunDraCon I put them on timeout, and put three newer, shinier dice into the mix. That seems to have taught them a lesson, which has solved the problem for the moment. Or perhaps they're all excited about their nice new chain-mail dice bag.
Seriously: I won't object to anybody using an app on their phone to roll dice, but I much prefer the sound of dice hitting the table - it adds to the atmosphere (and rolling a bunch of solid metal d6s really sounds good). I do raise an eyebrow at some dice I see (dice too small to read from across the table, or ones with obscure symbols in lieu of numbers), but haven't yet asked anybody to use anything different.
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I agree, though so far 90% of the PFS games in my area are at that store. No others in the area, though I hope to expand my 'area' a bit this year, into parts of IN and KY that dont seem to have any other VOs nearby. Might be able to add some extra venues in then. ;)@Seth,
I took 'your area' as being an area, not a store.
I don't travel with books anymore. I do print out spells and ability descriptions with the option that Herolab gives to do so.
I have a tablet that has access to all of my PDFs should a GM want to see those.
But I'll keep that local store rule in mind before I choose to (should I choose to) travel to your area to play some games. It would severely nerf my ability to play and GM if I couldn't use my tablet.
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Contributor
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When I play, I carry my Core Rulebook, the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, a printed and bound copy of the Guide to Organized Play, and printouts of all relevant "extra" rules that I might be using with my character.
When I GM, I bring my GM Screen, a printout of the scenario, my notes on the scenario (which often run half the length of the scenario itself), printouts of the monsters I'm running from their Bestiary pages and the first Bestiary itself for the rules in back, that printed and bound copy of the Guide to Organized Play, the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, and the Core Rulebook.
The last, I of course frequently consult during play though usually I try to prefigure what I'm going to need to look up and include those rules (grappling, aquatic combat, what-have-you) in my notes. But I mainly bring it and the other two items at the end of my list as props for the little welcoming speech I give at the beginning of every session about what the Core Assumption is and how we're all expected to own legal physical or digital copies of those three products.
I had to run one scenario off my MacBook Pro when my printer was down once. Didn't like it. The screen blocked my view of the charts I reference on my GM Screen, and I don't find a 30 page pdf as quickly and intuitively navigable as a 30 page printout, personally.
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Print a copy of the Additional Resources and the character creation chapter of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play and request they read both documents to make sure their character is built legally before the next game day.
If they show up with an illegal character yet again, then you turn them away from that game day. They don't have an excuse since you provided both printed documents. You invite them to fix their character and come to the next game day with a legal character. If they show up at the next game day with another illegally made character intentionally, you turn them away again, request they fix their character, and invite the to the next game day.
This is under the presumption you presented that you think they are showing up with an intentionally illegally built character. If it is a honest mistake, the help the person correct those mistakes and game on.
Hearkening back to the beginning of thread, we just printed up and handed out 4.3 Guides and Additional Resources to all the players at our LGS this week (and will continue to do so over the upcoming weeks). We also now have a stash onsite. No one was required to take them, but those that turned them down said they already had them (or had access).
Due to the growth of PFS at our store, there was a combination of folks not knowing the rules and those possibly ignoring them. It was a way of having a communal zero point on when everyone was made aware of PFS rules and what is and what is not legal. It is meant to cut down on the "I didn't know"s and "someone told me I could do that"s that cropped up as well as give the GMs a leg to stand on when someone seems to have chronic issues with their character(s).
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Well, let's just say my printer at my job got a good work out last week ;) (And to assuage my guilt at using so much paper, everything was double-sided.)
The other thing we hope to implement starting in a week or two is handing out PFS "tip sheets" -- this is our working framework:
-To help educate our PFS players, we will start handing out friendly, helpful PFS tip sheets.
-Players will receive tip sheets with their chronicle at the end of scenarios.
-A tip sheet is no more than one page long.
-Tip sheets will rotate monthly. (this is to ensure we hit the infrequent players)
-Previous months' tip sheets will be stashed onsite in the PFS folder/supply box.
-We would start handing them out the last week of February/first week of March.
-Onsite VC, VL or volunteer GM would be responsible for making sure each table gets tip sheets to hand out with their chronicles.
Right now, we're still in the drafting phase of topics to be covered, but some of things we hope to cover would be:
Prestige: Earning and Spending
Gear: Buying & Upgrading
Magic Consumables: Potions, Scrolls, and Wands
Bonuses: What stacks?
Ranged, Reach & Melee: Cover & Concealment
Chronicle Sheet management
Conditions & Death
PFS Survival Tips (gear, items & tactics)
Step-by-Step registering for PFS (for new players or lazy vet players)
Edited to add:
I know some of these are basic and are basically, "Hey, RTFM!" but by proactively educating the players, we help players and GMs alike--players have a short-and-sweet reference sheet and GMs have a resource to hand out if the need arises to those who need help grokking the rules.
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Speaking of our local group, the one guy who most needs a copy of the stuff you were handing out actually showed up late on Monday, so I don't think he got a copy. Remind me next week to make sure he gets them, even if he's late.
Speaking of the laptop/tablet debate, that same player came to my table with his character on his laptop, not printed on paper, and then didn't turn it on. When I asked about it, he said the laptop wasn't working, but I should trust him because he remembers all the details. There aren't many players I'd trust to play their PC entirely from memory (not even myself!), and this guy is especially not one of them. So I made him play a pregen.
But I do agree that it's pretty silly these days for anyone to forbid laptops/tablets altogether. I definitely prefer paper character sheets, but I own too many books to carry them with me to every game. This is especially true since I have a bunch of characters and often decide at game time which one I'll play, so I need to bring the books that apply to all of them.
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"Matthew Morris wrote:
I then find out that the GM has decided to say no computers at the table.
Matthew, I cant speak for Erosthenes, but my post was regarding the policy of the store I play in, not my policy. I don't enforce it any more heavily than I have to (meaning pretty much all I do is nod in agreement with him when he brings it up to someone, which isn't often), but it is the policy of the place, nonetheless."
Well, I CAN speak for Eros! LOL The policy I mentioned about no laptops is not a Draconian rule that excludes anything with racing electrons. I was intending to speak to the use of Hero Lab as an active part of playing PFS in my area. Our VC seems to feel that there is too much room for the potential of a player fudging with a laptop running Hero Lab character. He, like me, is an Old Fart and prefers his dice real, and a paper character sheet. I think HL is a great application, and I use it for all my PFS characters. (Too many digital dice rolling programs do not generate a truly random set of results) A player can certainly have a .pdf on her machine, and can have it running on the table. Although, I must admit, the folks that do this usually have a very popular machine from a company that shall remain nameless pad. They are very convenient and a heck of a lot lighter than carrying all the books.
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(I use Heroloab) - To be PFS legal one only needs to tick a box in the settings menu. (it is still worth checking the numbers before playing as occasionally there are some bugs that don't give you full skill ranks on some traits for example etc..)*snip*
For those unfamiliar with Herolab, you actually has to pay for extra modules and books as they are released. Whilst the owner of HL may not have a pdf copy of the page in question, they are able to print out the Gears and Abilities pages (which details their abilities in gear in RAW text) and the Spells pages (which is also as RAW) each of which has updates as per additional resources etc...
*snip*
For a clarification point -- HL is not a valid source for the source, you still need to be able to provide the source outside of herolab in order to be able to use the *item*
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I usually print out all the "uncommon" things my characters have, and I have a folder for each character with PDF prinouts of the appropriate pages, and sometimes screenshots of board rulings on my tablet.
Most of the things I think are "well known" like create pit, spring loaded wrist-sheath, alternate favored class (specifically the +1 sorc spell) or things that are static bonuses that aren't going to come up sans an aduit don't get hard copies because I don't want to lug that paper.
Semi uncommon things that make a difference and I'm likely to have a GM say "how?" magical lineage, infernal healing (currently the only thing I have a Screenshot of the ruling for...), Burning Arc, Liberating command, ect I have hard copy printouts so I can quickly just hand the sheet to the GM.
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For a clarification point -- HL is not a valid source for the source, you still need to be able to provide the source outside of herolab in order to be able to use the *item*I think paying for the file/book ensures it's use legally... (nb. as having been a subscriber for some years now I own pretty well all of the PDF,s and most of the hardbacks).
Now Herolab is a licensed Product after all (it contains the occasional error from time to time - but no more than you get from bad hand-writing) and is constantly updated as FAQ's and Additional Resources are added
Please provide a reference for clarification or provide link to the Dev's on this..
It has been stated time and time again on the boards that buying the books in HL is not a valid source. You still need to be able to provide the source of the *item* should the GM need it and you cannot do that with HL.
I know some GMs are ok with seeing the printout of stuff from HL but that doesn't mean that you own the book. HL is not a legal source for books in PFS.
I cannot find the exact link, however, I have contacted someone who can hopefully clarify the legality once and for all with using HL as a legal source.
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In our area it is understood that HeroLab is NOT acceptable unless one has a printed version of their character. Nobody is allowed to use their laptop at the table, unless your the GM. (Carrying all those books can be a strain).
And once Hero Lab release their tablet version? I have no intention of bringing printed character sheets with me when I have an interactive one right here on my tablet. I can condense my giant binder into a small accordion file of chronicles and my life will be so much easier. It will be great.
I have never been to, or prior to this moment, even heard of a game store that doesn't allow tablets to be anywhere inside, and I can say in all honesty that I would leave such a store in a heartbeat. Seriously. I understand being upset about PDFs killing the print market but ... it's 2013. Banning tablets won't change anything. It's just ... vindictive.
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I have never been to, or prior to this moment, even heard of a game store that doesn't allow tablets to be anywhere inside, and I can say in all honesty that I would leave such a store in a heartbeat. Seriously. I understand being upset about PDFs killing the print market but ... it's 2013. Banning tablets won't change anything. It's just ... vindictive.
This is not the first time I have heard of game stores not allowing laptops/tablets in their store. In fact I remember a disgruntled store owner in these forums complaining about free PDFs with subscriptions who stated they had a similar policy.
But I agree with you I would not game at a store that had such a policy, my tablet has become too much of an important resource for my gaming.
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Actually I did remember reading a quote stating the exact opposite.but since my search-fu has failed at this time, I am asking for clarification... politely
and no quoting the "boards" isn't sufficient... and quite frankly just because a thought is regurgitated on the boards, doesn't make it any more true.
Edit: Remove foot from mouth. Realize person didn't see quote provided. Start again
Check a couple of posts up. Caderyn provided the quote from Mike stating that Herolab is not a valid source. It's also on pg.1 of this thread.
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Actually I did remember reading a quote stating the exact opposite.but since my search-fu has failed at this time, I am asking for clarification... politely
and no quoting the "boards" isn't sufficient... and quite frankly just because a thought is regurgitated on the boards, doesn't make it any more true.
Check the first page of the thread again. Mike Brock made a post about 1/2 way down.
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Actually I did remember reading a quote stating the exact opposite.but since my search-fu has failed at this time, I am asking for clarification... politely
and no quoting the "boards" isn't sufficient... and quite frankly just because a thought is regurgitated on the boards, doesn't make it any more true.
Actually, quoting campaign management from the boards is sufficient. Because board clarifications, per the guide, are rules that must be followed.
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Perhaps you both can explain what an "..Officially Licensed Character Management Tool for the Pathfinder RPG.." is...
PFCBG's link pretty much says it all, but in case you need more explanation...
When you are dealing with copyright, intellectual property, and other such things, you have to buy a license to use that material in your own product.
In this case, Herolab has the only officially licensed product to manage a Pathfinder character.
This license has absolutely no bearing on it actually being a Paizo product. It isn't.
Pathfinder Society Organized Play is essentially a marketing tool for Paizo to sell their flagship line of products--Pathfinder.
If you look at it from that perspective, it would be stupid, and a hugely bad business move, to not use their marketing tool to actually, you know, make money. So that they can afford to continue to put out fantastic roleplaying products year after year.
As such, it is required to own the materials to use them as a source while playing Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Herolabs doesn't pay the bills they need to pay to stay in business.
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Contributor
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I can go look for it if it's really needed, but at some point in this or a related thread, in addition to Mike Brock's pronouncement (and I rush to say nothing more than it is needed, obviously), a developer or somebody from Lone Wolf themselves chimed in and agreed that Hero Lab wasn't a legal source for PFS.
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In fact I remember a disgruntled store owner in these forums complaining about free PDFs with subscriptions who stated they had a similar policy.
This is, more or less, the issue my lgs owner has with it as well. He doesnt like that Paizo sells a subscription option that gives physical book + pdf that can be purchased online, but he cant offer the same thing in the store. If Paizo were to allow the additional purchase of a pdf code when purchasing the physical book in store, I would imagine his policy would disappear.
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Wow. This conversation has gone on WAY too long.
From page 5 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play:
In order to utilize content from an Additional Resource, a player
must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it, or a printout of the relevant pages from it
Is HeroLab a physical copy of a Paizo book?
Is HeroLab a name-watermarked Paizo PDF?Is HeroLab a printout of the relevant pages from the book?
I really don't see why Mike Brock needed to clarify this, but the fact that he did is just the exclamation point on an already pretty clear statement.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is, more or less, the issue my lgs owner has with it as well. He doesnt like that Paizo sells a subscription option that gives physical book + pdf that can be purchased online, but he cant offer the same thing in the store. If Paizo were to allow the additional purchase of a pdf code when purchasing the physical book in store, I would imagine his policy would disappear.
Strikes me as funny. Wednesday I checked the FLGS PF stuff and they had a map I needed. So I got it. I'll likely do the same tomorrow.
I'm not a retailer, but it seems as strange to me as saying "You can't bring in books from Amazon." *shrug* It's his shop though, I'm just a (non)guest.
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I'm not a retailer, but it seems as strange to me as saying "You can't bring in books from Amazon." *shrug* It's his shop though, I'm just a (non)guest.
That's actually the point most people make if he brings it up, to which he has no real response. :P
I dont get the problem personally. I mean, yea, I can see it affecting his sales a bit, but most of our players buy all their stuff as physical books at the store rather than buying the pdfs online.|
Contributor
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Found the post where a representative of the company that puts out Hero Lab agrees its not a "legal rules source." Here you go.
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I'm not a retailer, but it seems as strange to me as saying "You can't bring in books from Amazon." *shrug* It's his shop though, I'm just a (non)guest.That's actually the point most people make if he brings it up, to which he has no real response. :P
I dont get the problem personally. I mean, yea, I can see it affecting his sales a bit, but most of our players buy all their stuff as physical books at the store rather than buying the pdfs online.
That makes it hard for outside GMs (outside the area) to come in and judge for you or even play ... personally I have everything on pdf, I also have hardcover books, but if I'm traveling I'm not going to schlep all the books just cause a store owner has a beef.
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I'm not a retailer, but it seems as strange to me as saying "You can't bring in books from Amazon." *shrug* It's his shop though, I'm just a (non)guest.That's actually the point most people make if he brings it up, to which he has no real response. :P
I dont get the problem personally. I mean, yea, I can see it affecting his sales a bit, but most of our players buy all their stuff as physical books at the store rather than buying the pdfs online.
I have not seen any store owner with a policy like that. I can understand there not approving of the pdf's though. Pathfinder is reliant upon these stores to stay open and promote the game. We may not buy everything there but most of the new players are probably introduced to Pathfinder through a LGS.
I wish Paizo had a kickback program for the LGS. We buy something from Paizo, tell them the LGS we support, and a small precentage goes to that LGS. This way LGS's get a little from the PDF's and other digital purchases. As the game moves more and more to PDF's something like this will become important if we want to keep LGS running. I would gladly pay 10% more if that went to the LGS we play at.
