First Mythic Encounter
PCs are located here. They are Level 14-15 / Mythic 1.
Last night we played through our first mythic encounter - that is encounter against a mythic opponent. The opponent was a 15th or 16th level monk built with a high point buy, a single mythic tier, and a collection of active buff (because he ambushed the party). He was supported by a collection of level 1 or 2 mooks that shared his appearance, adding to confusion early in the fight.
Over the course of approximately six rounds the party demolished a couple dozen mooks and were eventually able to overcome their opponent. Though the opponent was specialized for grapple - and was quite successful against the two handed fighter - our sword and board's anti-grapple specializations made him a nightmare for the opponent. The details of the fight are fairly tedious, but I reached the following initial conclusions about mythic.
1. Fleet charge is brokenly good for NPCs and PCs because it allows them to full attack every single round. The damage per round output increase for our fighters was comical compared to their pre-mythic selves. Even against an opponent with an AC in excess of 43 they dealt somewhere near or around 500 damage in the course of two or three rounds.
2. Fleet charge is brokenly good because it allows PCs and NPCs to full attack characters that go out of their way to avoid getting full attacked - like casters. Given that a full attack is generally enough to outright kill a caster this seems problematic. In the past my wizard has been pretty good at keeping a party fighter or other barrier between hard hitting melee characters and herself. Last night had our opponent desired her head I don't know that I could have stopped it short of outright fleeing (and perhaps not even then).
3. NPC opponents with mythic tiers have the power of those tiers exaggerated by the fact that they can and should burn every available mythic point as quickly as possible. Having them draw from the same size daily pool as a character who may fight through 4 or more encounters a day. While one could argue that the same is true of other characters with limited use abilities such as spellcasters or maguses, I would argue that the effect is exaggerated by the ability to burn multiple mythic points a round.
4. Martial characters have plenty of methods of shutting down old spellcaster escape tricks (like dimension door) but there are virtually no additions to caster survivability - which seems problematic.
5. The hit point bonuses provided by mythic tiers don't seem particularly meaningful. Certainly not on par with the vast increases on damage provided.
I was playing the two-handed fighter in that encounter.
I'm not certain how much feedback I can give from my own perspective in particular, for two reasons. One, the enemy's ability to respond to any missed melee attack with a grapple, and use another grappled character as a shield, shut me down pretty hard, without anything Mythic being involved (Snapping Turtle Style and something else, for the record). Second, I only went into the fight with two uses of Mythic Power, having used the rest on a non-combat encounter we'd just come from.
That being said, I will definitely agree with Pete that Fleet Charge was the biggest game changer for bad guy and PCs alike. Both of my points were spent on saving throws, but the sword-n-board, our rogue/bard, and the enemy all used that power to great effect, to the extent that I felt severely outclassed by not having the opportunity to employ it myself.
Likewise, it reinforced some of my thoughts from reading the document that Archmage and Hierophant could stand to tone down their offensive powers and boost defensive/survival ones.
I also play in this group (I am the ungrappleable sword and boarder, progressing as a Champion/Trickster in mythic).
And I had better have been ungrappleable since I've selected the alternate fighter favored class bonus, to increase CMD against grapple and trip, a number of times.
Our mythic grapple-specialized opponent got some licks in and was well able to beat the CMDs of most of our party (myself excepted) but was hampered by a few things
-whenever he would get a grapple going our conjurer wizard (played by Peter above) would dimension door the grapplee out of it
-he couldn't grapple me to save his life and I was able to use Fleet Charge to get full attacks on him when he tried to disengage and focus on someone else.
Combat impressions:
The party blew through a fair number of mythic points. I used three. Our two-hander used two or three, I don't remember. Our casters didn't use as many, but I remember a few being tossed around from them as well.
Our NPC opponent of course was blowing through mythic power like it was going out of style.
There was definitely an aspect of supercharged offense vs ordinary defense at work. Fleet Charge made a bunch of extra full attacks possible for me, our one caster who used significant mythic caster abilities was able to shut down literally every single mook with an Archmage mythic power boosting a single spell (and the main baddie got a natural 20 to survive it). The only significant mythic defense in play, though, AFAIK - other than standard Mythic Power occasionally boosting saves - was our enemy's Mythic Dodge. I think it would be fair to say that mythic offense outstrips mythic defense significantly for both spellcasters and martial characters.
A couple not strictly combat impressions I will also note:
-Mythic trials are very unbalanced between paths. I was already recouping Mythic points from the Assassinate trickster trial just from casually beheading a mook, and our casters are able to get them back from archmage trials easily as well. I will be surprised if Wardragon, who plays the two-handed fighter (champion/guardian) gets a single dang guardian trial done by the time the entire playtest is over. Martial trials are often luck based on very long odds, caster trials can be completed any time the caster chooses only requiring a little preparation, and trickster trials (mine) are luck based but super easy (kill a mook in one hit? Sure! Pass a perception check on a roll of 5 or less? Uh, quick, O fighter in full plate, hide very badly!).
So of course Wardragon's champion/guardian is out of mythic points and the rest of us are cruising by on our easy trials. It's not entirely that - he did also spend more than anyone else - but the trial differences are playing their part since everyone else can regain points and he can't.
-Casters aren't all that lacking for defensive abilities, you just need to look. Mythic defensive spells are available that significantly boost survivability IMO - though they get more offense still than that. In fact my general impression - playing as a martial character, so grass-always-greener warning in effect - is that casters stand to gain a lot more from Mythic than martial characters do. However, there is a lack of good defensive path abilities, for both casters and other paths (guardian excepted, but only a little because most of his stuff seems kind of lame and there is not much straight defense available).
-There isn't enough material to go through a path. I multi-pathed after looking at Champion and seeing a max of four abilities I would ever be interested in taking.
-Where is the simplicity? Seriously, if I want to smash a guy through a stone wall, took the mythic power for it, and spend a mythic point to do it I roll unarmed (like I have unarmed damage ready to hand) and then the DM and I figure out which of the five different categories of stone wall it is, measure how many feet of stone the wall is so that we can figure out my d3+whatever failed to break through the boatload of hitpoints per foot its category of stone wall has? The simplification I would be looking for would be more like "you spent a mythic point? you break the wall. Done." The way it is is more complicated than a regular attack.
Our mythic grapple-specialized opponent got some licks in and was well able to beat the CMDs of most of our party (myself excepted) but was hampered by a few things
-whenever he would get a grapple going our conjurer wizard (played by Peter above) would dimension door the grapplee out of it
And if she hadn't, at least two people (my two-hander and the bard) would probably have been killed or paralyzed by his Neck Breaker feat chain.
-Where is the simplicity? Seriously, if I want to smash a guy through a stone wall, took the mythic power for it, and spend a mythic point to do it I roll unarmed (like I have unarmed damage ready to hand) and then the DM and I figure out which of the five different categories of stone wall it is, measure how many feet of stone the wall is so that we can figure out my d3+whatever failed to break through the boatload of hitpoints per foot its category of stone wall has? The simplification I would be looking for would be more like "you spent a mythic point? you break the wall. Done." The way it is is more complicated than a regular attack.
This. So very much this.
Oh.
And mythic flaws are super, super hated by me (and from polling the rest of the group the dislike of the system seems to be widespread among others as well). There was not a one that I felt fit my character or the way I want to play him (this is a fairly RP heavy game, mind).
So I picked vulnerability to siege weapons not really expecting to exploit the system (our DM can, and did, have siege weapons show up shortly thereafter) but more as a screw this to the whole concept. If there were a graceful way to opt out of the system, even for less mythic power, I would have done it in a heartbeat.
Even if there were more fitting (even if worse) flaws I might probably have picked one. My fighter has difficulty saying no to a pretty face. Great! Flaw, and hi there Samson. Maybe it's tough to resurrect you when you die because your power came from a deal with the devil who has claimed your soul in return, or Odin has already conscripted your spirit for Ragnarok. Super flavorful.
Nope. Weapon group this, magic school that.
Well screw it, siege weapons.
Oh.
And mythic flaws are super, super hated by me (and from polling the rest of the group the dislike of the system seems to be widespread among others as well). There was not a one that I felt fit my character or the way I want to play him (this is a fairly RP heavy game, mind).
So I picked vulnerability to siege weapons not really expecting to exploit the system (our DM can, and did, have siege weapons show up shortly thereafter) but more as a screw this to the whole concept. If there were a graceful way to opt out of the system, even for less mythic power, I would have done it in a heartbeat.
Even if there were more fitting (even if worse) flaws I might probably have picked one. My fighter has difficulty saying no to a pretty face. Great! Flaw, and hi there Samson. Maybe it's tough to resurrect you when you die because your power came from a deal with the devil who has claimed your soul in return, or Odin has already conscripted your spirit for Ragnarok. Super flavorful.
Nope. Weapon group this, magic school that.
Well screw it, siege weapons.
All of this, though I went with a more conventional weakness. The elemental vulnerabilities seem pretty brutal, especially with the whole double damage and cannot benefit from any resistance.
As with Einar, it's the fluff of such weaknesses that slays me more than anything. Why is my character suddenly vastly more vulnerable to something? I've spent years playing the same character and suddenly I've got this Achilles Heel?
As with Einar, it's the fluff of such weaknesses that slays me more than anything. Why is my character suddenly vastly more vulnerable to something? I've spent years playing the same character and suddenly I've got this Achilles Heel?
While I think that Mythic Flaws could use some work, and wouldn't be opposed to seeing a system for playing without Mythic Flaws in the final text, I think that in this case the problem you are saying could easily be transferred to mythic power in general: "I've been playing the same character for years, why am I suddenly able to do mythic feats?" I would imagine that, much like there needs to be an explanation in game for why a character has suddenly gained mythic power, there needs to be an explanation for why they have their mythic flaw. Neither mythic power nor mythic flaws will make much sense if suddenly applied to a character you have played for years without any explanation.
Like the acquisition of Mythic tiers, some thought and interplay between players and DM needs to go on to explain how it has occurred. Perhaps for one character their Mythic Power comes from a bargain made with a Faerie Noble, which allows the character to have power beyond mortal knowledge but gives them vulnerability to cold iron, while another character's brush with mythic power comes from stealing power from the god of fire, and they gain a weakness to cold, while another character gains the power to call upon the strength of forests from a forest god, and perhaps gains a weakness to fire, or to axes, while in another game the characters may all be scions of gods and have to choose weaknesses based on which god they choose as their parent. You wouldn't just say that your character had existed for years as is and suddenly had great Hubris or a weakness to siege weapons, but you also wouldn't say that your character existed for years and then was suddenly able to take two actions in a round and move faster than any mortal. Both the acquisition of mythic power and the accompanying mythic flaw have to be worked out in the context of the game.
That said, I think it wouldn't be too hard to imagine a game where a mythic flaw is not appropriate, or even games where it is appropriate for some characters but not for all of them. If paizo could put out recommendations for games with no mythic flaws, or for some characters choosing flaws and others not, I think that could be a useful addition to the final rule set.
While I think that Mythic Flaws could use some work, and wouldn't be opposed to seeing a system for playing without Mythic Flaws in the final text, I think that in this case the problem you are saying could easily be transferred to mythic power in general: "I've been playing the same character for years, why am I suddenly able to do mythic feats?"
Yup, quite likely. No doubt it would be easier to assign a flaw to a new character than one that's already been played for three years before suddenly developing severe allergy to polearms, or whatnot. In this case the catalyst for gaining Mythic power was exposure to an ancient artifact.
That said, I think it wouldn't be too hard to imagine a game where a mythic flaw is not appropriate, or even games where it is appropriate for some characters but not for all of them. If paizo could put out recommendations for games with no mythic flaws, or for some characters choosing flaws and others not, I think that could be a useful addition to the final rule set.
Yup. And as noted, I would also have held a bit less dislike for the system if there were more and more flavorful mythic flaws matching the flavor the character does have. It's the combination of a) no way to opt out and b) no fitting flaws (and overall a lot of bland flaws I thought) that made me dislike the system so much.
I play in this group as a weretiger bard/rogue, going on as a dual path marshal/trickster.
We play online over mIRC, so for those interested, I've included the IC transcript of the fight, as well as a separate OOC summary of everyone's actions that sticks to mechanics.
OOC summary:
Mooks: Attack the party, miss each time. (Subsequent mook actions will be left out, they either missed the PCs each time or provided aid anothers to the boss.)
Wizard: Kills mooks with an AoE.
Wizard's familiar: Kills mooks in melee.
Sorcerer: Casts quickened eagle's splendor and heightened permanent image of himself amidst the mooks. (Our game uses a houserule that lets illusions deal nonlethal damage, if this had not been in place he'd have probably cast phantasmal web).
Fighter: Delays after Bard/Rogue.
Bard/Rogue: Spends a swift action to inspire courage in the party, executes a full attack of sneak attacks against the mooks, kills two.
Fighter: Throws javelins against NPC Monk, misses and takes some minor damage when one is thrown back at him.
NPC Cleric: Kills mooks with an AoE.
Fighter/Barb: Moves towards NPC Monk, kills a mook with a standard action attack. (The player did not realize at this point the NPC monk was a mythic threat, otherwise his probable course of action would have been to spend a mythic point on fleet charge and full attack him.)
Round 2
Wizard: Casts enhanced magic missile at NPC Monk, fails to affect him due to some spell.
Sorcerer: Casts quickened haste on the party, uses permanent image to knock out some mooks via its nonlethal damage.
Bard/Rogue: Plans to use fleet charge to full attack NPC Monk, but delays past Fighter so he can set up a flank with her.
Fighter: Uses fleet charge to move up to NPC Monk and full attack. Critical hits and staggers him through Staggering Critical.
The DM realizes that NPC Monk's turn got inadvertently skipped in round 1. NPC Monk will take his skipped turn right now, and his turn for round 2 at its normal place in the initiative order. His staggered condition will apply for the second turn but not the first.
NPC Monk: Uses fleet charge to attack Fighter once and move towards the rest of the party (provokes and gets hit with an AoO by Fighter). Full attacks Fighter/Barbarian and Wizard, hitting them with Stunning Fist attempts and poison, but they have good luck on their saves. Fighter/Barbarian also spends a point to turn one of his failures into a pass, and emerges only slightly worse for the wear with some Dex damage beyond the hp damage.
Bard/Rogue: Uses fleet charge to move past NPC Monk and make one attack (misses and fails her Acrobatics check to avoid an AoO, but his attack also misses due to her cloak of minor displacement). Bard/Rogue is now 10' away from him and executes a full attack via pounce. Misses with every attack, but casts gallant inspiration to make one a hit. NPC Monk uses the Snapping Turtle line of feats to pull her into a grapple.
Fighter/Barbarian: Full attacks NPC Monk, using rage and a smite ability from one of his items. NPC Monk uses Bard/Rogue as a human shield, redirecting one of Fighter/Barbarian's attacks to hit her instead. (Mechnics-wise I don't know what was used.)
NPC Monk: His staggered condition from Fighter kicks in. Pins Bard/Rogue and uses Chokehold to make her start suffocating.
Round 3
Wizard: Uses dimensional steps to move Bard/Rogue out of NPC Monk's grapple. Her familiar covers her retreat, provokes an AoO and gets hit by a bestow curse to have a 50% chance of not taking actions.
Sorcerer: Casts quickened displacement and knocks out some more mooks with permanent image.
Fighter: Delays past Bard/Rogue.
Bard/Rogue: Casts heroic finale on Fighter. He uses his standard action to drink a special potion. Bard/Rogue then reactivates inspire courage with a move action.
Fighter: Full attacks NPC Monk.
NPC Cleric: Casts dispel magic on NPC Monk, removing his disguise to reveal his true identity. The party is greatly shocked, though it has no bearing on how the combat plays out.
Fighter/Barbarian: Rolls and passes his save against poison. Full attacks NPC Monk, who uses Snapping Turtle style to pull him into a grapple. Bard/Rogue casts gallant inspiration to turn one of Fighter/Barbarian's misses into a hit.
NPC Monk: Pins Fighter/Barbarian and uses Chokehold to make him start suffocating, also uses Neck Breaker to reduce him to 0 Dexterity and unconsciousness. However, Fighter/Barbarian spends a point of mythic power to turn his failed save into a pass. He takes more Dex damage but not enough to knock him out.
Round 4
Wizard: Delays past Sorcerer.
Sorcerer: Casts phantasmal web on the remaining mooks, using arcane surge to make them roll twice. They all get immobilized. Casts quickened dispel magic on NPC Monk, but rolls a nat 1 and doesn't remove anything. His familiar attacks NPC Monk with chill touch but misses.
Wizard: Uses dimensional steps to remove Fighter/Barbarian from NPC Monk's grapple. Her familiar can't act.
Bard/Rogue: Delays past Fighter.
Fighter: Full attacks NPC Monk, using sudden strike to make an extra attack. Bard/Rogue casts gallant inspiration to turn one of his misses into a hit. NPC Monk gets killed.
Readers of the IC log will notice that NPC Monk actually lived to fight another day. This was due to some custom material, which our game uses a lot of. As he would have died without it, however, he was killed for purposes of the playtest here.
The monk, btw, was a maneuver master monk/mythic champion with the Snapping Turtle and Neckbreaker line of feats. He used Combat Expertise, aid anothers from the mooks, and Mythic Dodge to achieve a pretty formidable AC.
IC log:
<Varks> As Heinrick moves, the Varks converge upon the three. The Wyverns stand fast as the Varks attack. Blades flash, and ring harmlessly off of armor, shields and mystic barriers.
<Ne'mer> Ne'mer falls on the closest Vark in a whirlwind of claws and teeth.
<Katrina> Katrina takes a step back and unleashes a volley of arcane missiles at the remaining enemies surrounding Einar.
<DM> The tiger leaps upon the two eager attackers, tearing out their throats in spray of blood. As they die, a flash of light expels from each one, connecting to the remaining foes. The force missiles rip through two more, and again flashes of light connect to the living.
<Vark> Vark laughs. "Katrina isn't it? There's always a Katrina."
<Katrina> "Shame for you," Katrina responds.
<Vark> "On the contrary, I've always liked the Katrina."
<Other Varks> More Varks appear from nowhere as two more charge Ne'mer, failing to gain purchase in the cub's hide.
<Heinrick> "Looks like you haven't gotten any tougher, slimeball. No matter how many of you there are, you'll have to put in some more practice to get us. You literally can't even hurt a kitten!"
<Rath> Rath casts a spell from hiding, keeping his volume as low as possible while allowing the magic to take hold. As he carefully sets the illusion, he offers an amused smirk.
<Adoan> Adoan simply rolls her eyes, already knowing his intent to once again show-boat.
<Rath> A loud whistling fills the air coming from somewhere above in the sky. Suddenly, with a tremendous smashing sound, an image of Rath hits the ground - dust plumes as he slowly stands up from a crouch and assumes a martial stance. "Ready? Fight." The illusory Rath flashes forward into the mob of Varks.
<Alyssa> A roar and burst of leaves heralds Alyssa's appearance as the tigress flashes into view, rapier spinning as she tears into the nearest Vark.
<DM> The Vark's head explodes as the rapier rams through it faster than the half-orc version can blink. It dies in a flash of light and pool of blood. His female duplicate perishes a moment later.
<Katrina> Katrina frowns.
<Einar> Orc-Einar reaches for his javelins, preferring not to break formation.
<Vark> The javelins miss, though Vark snatches one of the spears from mid-air and flings it back into Einar's shoulder. (12 damage)
<Einar> Or at least at Einar's shoulder, as the javelin bounces back after leaving merely a red line on skin.
<Vark> "I'm surprised to see you fighting alongside this one. Don't you usually compete for glory?"
<Einar> Orc-Einar growls. "I fight for it. Today, that means fighting you." He reaches for Blitzen and sets his feet.
<Heinrick> "Who says we can't do both? Maybe if you ever had a friend, Vark, you might understand."
<Alyssa> "Poor guy don't look like he got no one but himself. Lots an' lots of himselves..."
<Vark> Vark throws back his head and laughs heartily. "An invasion of your worst foe, Heinrick. Are you not concerned?"
<Heinrick> "Oh, really? I hadn't seen Vanthus, or Drac, or Ulioth around. Are they just waiting for you small fry to soften me up? You're a joke, Vark. A footnote in the story of my life. Until you showed up here, I'd clean forgot you ever existed. And once I kill you as many times as it takes here, I'm going to enjoy forgetting you all over again."
<Mari> A lightning bolt claims the lives of four more Varks, though Mari does not yet reveal her and Rath's position.
<Alyssa> "Gotta say, after stoppin' a giant ass wave I ain't even goin' to try to include this in any songs."
<Vark> Vark looks confused. He chuckles. "Really?"
<Einar> "You look confused," Orc-Einar observes, Blitzen held low and ready.
<Heinrick> "Yep. A nobody. A petty thug with delusions of grandeur. Hell, even your own boss didn't like you, and she was more trouble to me than you ever were." Heinrick stalks towards the Vark who speaks, offhandedly slashing at one of the duplicates as he passes, barely even looking at it. "And I killed her too."
<DM> The Vark duplicate finds itself swept aside by the massive blade, and quartered before it can even scream. Another pool of blood, another flash of light.
<Vark> Vark's face scrunches up in ire. "And after all the trouble I went through to set up this elaborate stage to murder you upon."
<Heinrick> "So, you think you're my worst enemy? Well prove it, big man! Bring it on! But it's gonna take lot more of you than this to do for me!"
<Vark> "I figured you would at least appreciate it, since you always loved glory."
<Heinrick> "Wouldn't turn it down. Just don't see any to be had here. Just a mess that doesn't know to stay cleaned up."
<Vark> Vark laughs. "You have no idea, Heinrick. None at all. But I apologize for not making this more meaningful to you."
<Einar> Einar pauses for a moment. "Are you sure, Soller Vark, that you are in the right place and time?"
<Vark> "As for the right place and time, Einar, I am fairly sure this is the place that I kill this one." He nods towards Heinrick.
<Einar> "Then we will need to be closer than we have been." Einar's glance flickers down to the fallen javelin, its point bent from contact with his skin. "If you have truly met me, as you say, then you know that this is not the way to end my life. Come. Hard-edged iron will settle this better than endless talk."
<Katrina> Katrina nods her head to the side. "Ah." She spreads her fingers and sends a volley of missiles at the speaking Vark.
<Alyssa> Alyssa waves goodbye.
<DM> The missiles disappear against Vark's chest.
<Alyssa> "Ah, nuts, this is actually goin' to take a while. We got places to go."
<Vark> "Really, Katrina?"
<Katrina> Katrina smiles. "The rest are fakes."
<Vark> Vark smiles back at Katrina. "You always think you're so much more clever. Brains and brawn, right?"
<Katrina> "They tend to work best in conjunction."
<Rath> Rath spends the majority of his concentration on the illusion, but is able to fire off a quickening spell. The illusory Rath's charge concludes in a slide across the ground as he twists around in a sweeping kick at a Vark's legs. As he comes back to his feet from the acrobatic maneuver, two swift flying-kicks are aimed at the Vark's torso to send him flying if they connect.
<DM> Vark's bones crack as Rath's illusion sends him dropping unconscious.
<Adoan> Adoan slips along the wall, keeping most of herself within it and moving slowly and carefully to avoid notice.
<DM> Adoan does not see a hidden caster.
<Einar> Einar sighs as Vark falls silent but does not approach. "Well then. Let me try..." By the time he gets that far in his sentence, he is already in a blur of motion. Surprisingly enough, not straight at Vark... till a few steps along the side of the wall followed by a final rebound from a tree trunk send him straight at the man from behind.
<Vark> Vark follows the motion, turning to meet Einar's attack.
<Einar> "...this."
<DM> He catches the attack poorly, right at the shoulder. Wincing in pain, blood flows, freezes and sparks dance across the man's body. Einar is surprised, however... even with his keen blade and powerful swing, the man's body feels much more dense than it appears. The wound begins closing immediately.
<Vark> "I've killed you before, I can do it again."
<Katrina> Katrina laughs. "That's the sort of humor I'd expect out of Bianka."
<Alyssa> "Good luck, sweetums, you got some stiff comp'tition."
<Einar> "Fulfill that boast, if you can!" Each word is punctuated by another blow from Blitzen.
<Vark> Vark falls into a fighting stance, launching a kick at Einar which the Maesir catches on his shield. Vark uses the opportunity to spring off the shield, flipping towards the crowd, and Einar's counter swing misses by a thread.
He furiously attacks the group with a flurry of kicks, elbows and knees. Ne'mer alone manages to avoid the harsh attacks. (Heinrick 32, 32, 28, Kat 32 dmg) Poison burns with the attacks, but Kat's foresight has paid off and she overcomes the debilitating substance with ease. A blackness puffs with each blow, trying to inflict something dark and unholy upon them, but they resist.
Vark grins, his eyes laughing at the three. "Will your friends die or watch you do so?"
<Heinrick> "I pick you."
<Vark> "Agreed." Heinrick's body wracks with pain. (4 Dex) Vark reels from the expended effort, Einar's hit catching up with him.
<Alyssa> Alyssa streaks towards the real Vark, rapier flashing out, and just as suddenly blurs away. She runs up the wall and leaps down onto his chest, clawing, biting and tearing towards his heart with sword and savagery alike.
<DM> Vark launches a kick at Alyssa's chest, which misses as her scarf works its magic. As she stabs at him however, he latches on to her arm, pulls her off balance and wraps his forearm around her neck. She manages to gasp out a single note of her spellsong, and he finds his wrapped arm gushing blood where Fflam pierced it.
<Vark> "This one is not so common, Heinrick."
<Alyssa> "I'm one of a kind, baby."
<Heinrick> "So maybe you don't know everything. Gee, what a shock."
<Vark> "She probably doesn't mean much to you, so if I snap her neck you won't really care."
<Heinrick> "Only in the sense I'm already pissed as hell, and going to kill you either way. See if you can; I might just have to hurt you more first if you do. She's tougher than she looks, though."
<Vark> "You hear that? He doesn't care about you. I know him. He'll let you die."
<Alyssa> The tigress simply snarls, claws and fangs ready to tear into the upstart.
<Heinrick> "Wrong, dipshit. You don't know anything about me. And I'm not letting you kill today!"
<Mari> A lightning bolt blows more Varks apart.
<Varks> Even more come to take their place. Another Vark moves towards Heinrick, his dagger missing horribly.
<Heinrick> Heinrick ignores the feeble attack, and draws in a deep breath, calling up power from the stones of the courtyard into his sword, and lets it out in a roar of fury, swinging at the madman holding Alyssa with lightning speed.
<Vark> "I misjudged, singer. He's going to kill you himself. You can't trust him, I know." Vark whips Alyssa around, using her as a temporary shield for Heinrick's attack. The half-elf cannot stop himself in time, his blade sheers into Alyssa with a bloody spray.
<Alyssa> "Ooowww, godsdamnit! Aim for the left, Heinrick, aim the left!" Alyssa grits out.
<Vark> "Wait! I figured it out! You are the old woman! You look different here, but the scar..." Vark fingers Alyssa's throat, "is a dead giveaway."
<Alyssa> "Get your hand off that or I'll bite it off an' eat it for lunch," Alyssa snarls.
<Vark> "No, I'm still going to break your neck. He clearly doesn't care about you, much."
<Alyssa> "Your mistake if you try that, ugly."
<Heinrick> "I care plenty; I've just seen her live through worse than you can dish out, douche."
<Vark> "You can just be one of those deaths he pretends weighs on his conscience." His grip tightens around Alyssa's throat, cutting off her air.
<Alyssa> The tigress claws and thrashes, her yowls similarly cut off.
<Heinrick> "LET HER GO!"
<Katrina> Katrina slides away from Vark, eyes wide. She lays a hand on Alyssa as she does so, attempting to shift her out of the madman's grip.
<Ne'mer> Ne'mer withdraws to protect Katrina's retreat.
<Vark> Though careful, the cub is unable to avoid a vicious axe kick that slams down upon him as he moves away. The black energy rises up and washes over him, turning his eyes black to match Katrina's own. (30 damage and 50% chance to act normally)
<Rath> The momentum from the illusory Rath's last kick is used to springboard him into a high jump. He aims to land heel first on one Vark's head while spinning a kick at the adjacent Vark. As he hits the ground he rolls away - due to his velocity he skids several feet before turning back to the group of Vark's in a martial stance. He waves them forward tauntingly. Rath casts another quick spell on himself while Adoan continues towards the other staircase; still slowly and careful, though sped along by the quickening magic.
<DM> One Vark pitches forward, spraying light into the others, and the second reels back, his nose broken, barely standing.
<Vark> "Very good. I really didn't expect her to survive this. That brain again, I suppose," Vark gives Kat an admiring nod.
<Katrina> Katrina is silent, eyes tracking the vicious killer.
<Vark> "Makes me almost regret killing you, Kat. Not quite, but almost."
<Heinrick> "You won't have to worry about it."
<Alyssa> "Blagh... thanks, Kat," Alyssa exhales, rubbing her throat. "All right, time to bring out our A game here! We all killed Ulioth, we can take down this punk too!" There is a steady rhythmic tone to Alyssa's voice as she recalls each stab of Einar's that spelled the kopru priest's end, clapping her hands in sync with each one.
<Einar> Einar drinks a potion that has long rested on his belt. Fired with new strength, he once again races into the battle.
<DM> His blade cuts smoothly, while Vark twists and dodges like a cat. Still, Einar's will cannot be denied, and blood flows freely from Vark when the two combatants break off momentarily.
<Vark> "I've beaten you before. I can do it again."
<Einar> "Hard-edged iron," Orc-Einar repeats, "will settle this better than endless talk."
<Vark> "I like that. I'll say it for you when you die."
<Mari> Mari leaps over the stairway and launches a mystic wave at Vark, hoping to strip away some of his magical protections. "He couldn't possibly avoid that many attacks without some help," she snarls.
<DM> Vark's image melts away. His laughter does not. The half-elf beneath is Heinrick. Older, scarred, more rugged, but still Heinrick.
<Alyssa> "The hell? This just gets weirder an' weirder!"
<Heinrick Prime> "Ah, I was wondering when the b!%%% would show herself."
<Heinrick> "What the... you're not Vark, you're an alternate ME?!"
<Heinrick Prime> "You're inferior. And I could put that energy to better use."
<Alyssa> "You just come an' take it, scarface."
<Heinrick> "We'll see about that. I haven't come this far to get beaten by my own evil twin!"
<Heinrick Prime> "Your evil... twin? How cliche."
<Varks> The Vark mooks rush in.
<DM> Beneath the coat, Katrina can now see the shimmering of a shield spell active on Evil Heinrick.
<Katrina> "Numerology."
<Heinrick> "Figure of speech. I figure you're probably from an alternate time line or something. Knew that time travel'd bite me in the ass eventually.
<Einar> "It is best," Orc-Einar agrees, "to avoid such magic."
<Alyssa> "It never do turn out well in the stories..."
<Heinrick Prime> "You probably haven't taught this one any magic then, Kat. He's clearly too stupid for it."
<Heinrick> "These illusions, then? Or did you recruit all of Vark's doubles from across the multiverse?"
<Heinrick Prime> "I set this up for you, you moron. Your greatest foe returning from the dead... I figured you would be entertained a little before you died."
<Heinrick> "Heh. 'Cept he never was my greatest foe. Should have done a little more research."
<Heinrick Prime> "Well, the spellcream on these morons will wear off soon enough."
<Einar> "Beginning to make excuses already?" Orc-Einar asks with a toothy grin.
<Heinrick Prime> "No. Just a little sad to see my efforts wasted."
<Heinrick> "Spell... you bastard! These are regular people you yanked into your sick game?!"
<Heinrick Prime> "Oh stop pretending conscience, Heinrick, we both know we don't care."
<Alyssa> "...you son of a f#*%in' b*$~+! They had nothin' to do with this!" Alyssa snarls.
<Heinrick> "Guess that's just another difference between you and me."
<Varks> The Varks try their best to distract the Wyverns from Heinrick Prime.
<Heinrick> The Heinrick of this universe is undeterred. "In fact, let's clear this up. You. Are. Not! ME!" He ignores them entirely and punctuates each word with a strike at his doppelganger. As he swings, his arm flares silver through its normal appearance for a brief instant, soothing his bruises from before.
<DM> The blows strike hard against the rapidly healing Heinrick. One lifts him up, and another folds him over the blade. Like a snake wrapping around it though, he moves down the blade towards the hilt, wrapping himself around Heinrick just as he did Alyssa when Heinrick's blows get sloppy.
<Heinrick Prime> "And now, Heinrick, I'll be breaking your neck. It's a thick one, trust me, I know."
<Heinrick> "Bigger'n you have tried."
<Alyssa> "You couldn't break mine, tough guy, an' his is thicker."
<Heinrick Prime> "That poison running through your veins right now is hurting, isn't it?" (4 Dex) "Making you slow. Sloppy."
<Heinrick> His only response is to spit in the other's eye.
<DM> An impossible feat, unfortunately, with the man's arm wrapped around Heinrick's neck from the back.
<Heinrick Prime> "I will say this, you fight together well in this world." He tightens his grip on Heinrick's head, cutting off all of the warrior's air and jerks it to the side. (31 damage)
<DM> A straining sound is heard, but Heinrick's vertebrae remain in place.
<Heinrick Prime> "Impossible!"
<Alyssa> "You ain't the first to say that."
<Heinrick> Heinrick growls around the chokehold.
<Rath> Rath finally stands, his illusion vanishing as he ceases concentration. "Enough of this. When the other Heinrick appeared, he made no mention of me. When the golem from the future saw me, he had no reaction. And, now the spawn of another reality appears and cannot spare a thought for me...? I EXIST; AND YOU SHALL FEAR ME!"
His voice booms across the clearing as his magic twists the shadows to crawl with venomous hate upon the Wyverns' foes. In the corners of their eyes, greater terrors lurk unseen but ready to consume when the prey is subdued. Rath flies from the tower, heralded by their omnipresence.
One of those shadows moves swiftly, a hazy fog that is difficult to look at as one's gaze slips away of its own will. Adoan is barely visible as she passes once, twice, four times through Heinrick Prime and then appears before him with bloodthirsty, glowing green eyes.
There is a palpable darkness in the shadows. They twist about, reaching for their foes; greedy and malevolent. "Do not discount me again." Rath holds his hand towards Heinrick Prime and a ray of shadowy magic joins the two for an instant, tearing at his enchantments.
<DM> The shadow grips the Varks' minds and takes hold. They fall to the ground as one as Rath arises.
<Heinrick Prime> "And who is the Shadow?"
<Rath> Rath growls, evidently angered that his spells had so little effect on Heinrick Prime.
<Heinrick Prime> "Not bad, hiding up there. I thought the illusion was simply a distraction. A clumsy one at that, which I'd expect from my less mentally gifted version here."
<Rath> "Each tool for its purpose," Rath responds grimly.
<Heinrick Prime> "I don't know you though. Strange. I've killed so many versions, and never once come across you."
<Rath> Rath furrows his brow.
<Katrina> Katrina uses the enhanced speed Rath bestowed upon them to cut across Einar and the otherworldly Heinrick. She lays a hand on Heinrick and attempts to jerk him out of his double's grasp through dimensions.
<Heinrick Prime> He smiles as she removes another victim from his grasp.
<Katrina> There is no smile in return.
<Einar> Einar attempts to take advantage of his foe's propensity for distracting himself with conversation, raining blows down on him that are both precise and terrifyingly powerful.
<Heinrick Prime> Einar's attacks come down on Heinrick Prime, shredding his coat. One blow appears ready to take Prime's head off, when the half-elf holds up two fingers and says, "Stop." Impossibly, Einar does so. With the tatters of his coat hanging off of him, Heinrick Prime walks out of the path of the attack. Even at the increased speed, the Wyverns can barely track his movement, he seems to blur from one place to another.
<Alyssa> "Oh just friggin DIE already!"
<Heinrick Prime> Even in between words, Prime moves closer. Einar's sword strikes the ground, spinning out of his hands as it blasts into the dirt. The blur moves up to Katrina.
<Katrina> Her eyes go wide.
<Heinrick> "No, not her, no..." Heinrick gasps out as he watches the blur approach too fast to stop.
<Heinrick Prime> "You win this time, Brains." The coat falls away to reveal translucent chains running from his belt into the back pockets. Energy pulses through them. "Perhaps this one should be saved for later."
<Einar> Another blade is already in Einar's hands.
<Heinrick Prime> Heinrick Prime breaks apart into a thousand pieces that scatter and vanish.
Some impressions:
- My PC had enough swift/immediate action abilities already available that I never used two of my mythic ones (rally, mythic power). I am pretty much always using inspire courage to start off combats, gallant inspiration or saving finale to grant people rerolls, and reactivating courage when a finale takes it down... I am full up on things to do with my swift actions even pre-mythic.
- Fleet charge was a go-to ability for the fighters. If they weren't in full attack range, and the foe was deemed dangerous... it got used, every time (bar the occasions mythic power was used to boost saves). As a result, the fight was shorter than it would've been - people were simply dealing more damage. This was to the NPC monk's detriment, as he was able to injure PCs fairly effectively with just standard action attacks.
Personally, I would like to see fleet charge made less attractive... more damage per round without anything else doesn't scream Achilles or Gilgamesh to me.
- The marshal's advance ability is made fairly redundant by fleet charge. If champions can all take a move action with a swift action, there is not much point in a marshal spending their swift action to grant them one - the champion version also grants a free attack, so it is still attractive for them to take. Although you could combine both abilities to useful effect (champions move in and full attack enemy, marshal uses advance to move them back out of enemy's full attack range), that relies on lucky initiative placement to be so used - and would've been moot in this fight, as the NPC monk had fleet charge himself. Using advance when the champions aren't able to take fleet charges is another potential use, but the end result was that I decided the ability looked too circumstantial for my marshal to pick up.
- Mythic power was useful for the fighters without being an always-use ability. They didn't want to plop it every turn, because that would deprive them of other things to use swift actions on. It was instead a question of whether boosting that one failed attack save was worth not having a swift action the next round. Being able to alter the outcome of revealed rolls is also a fairly mythic-feeling ability.
- I was better able to contribute to the fight as a bard than a trickster/rogue. Fleet charge made it possible to execute more full attacks, but wasn't a huge help when hitting the foe's AC was unlikely to begin with (beyond giving more chances to try). To an extent this is an issue all rogues face at higher levels... you and the fighter are attacking the same AC, while the +2 from flanking doesn't make up the difference between 3/4s and full BAB + weapon training.
Some trickster abilities that didn't rely on attack rolls would've gotten a lot of use in this fight.
...
Both the acquisition of mythic power and the accompanying mythic flaw have to be worked out in the context of the game.
I am in agreement with this. If the DM can work out why the character has mythic power, they can work out why the character has a mythic weakness. Million and one different ways they can do it. My only real issue with the flaws is that none of them have leaped out as particularly fitting for our group's characters - though I am hopeful we will see more choices in later playtest rounds, or the final version of mythic.
Sword and boarder here again.
I will also point out a couple of the things I liked about the playtest, since this thread so far is a bucket load of complaints!
-I love the enhanced mobility afforded by Fleet Charge and a couple other abilities I will also be picking up when I qualify. Friggin love it. As a melee fighter lack of mobility in combat has been like unto a millstone around my neck. No, really. It's an issue I've felt for a very long time playing this character and now there is finally something I can do about it.
-I like the mythic power mechanic and the ability to alter die rolls post-results.
-I like some of the more mythic-feeling noncombat trickster powers. Despite being a front line fighter my first pick was actually Majestic Countenance from the trickster path. There are a couple of other trickster abilities that I love and will acquire. On the other hand there are certainly some lamesauce ones too. I am looking at you, Assured Drinker... sorry, that's not mythic.
That said, I think it wouldn't be too hard to imagine a game where a mythic flaw is not appropriate, or even games where it is appropriate for some characters but not for all of them. If paizo could put out recommendations for games with no mythic flaws, or for some characters choosing flaws and others not, I think that could be a useful addition to the final rule set.Yup. And as noted, I would also have held a bit less dislike for the system if there were more and more flavorful mythic flaws matching the flavor the character does have. It's the combination of a) no way to opt out and b) no fitting flaws (and overall a lot of bland flaws I thought) that made me dislike the system so much.
I really, really like the concept of the flaws, if not the execution. I let the PCs choose theirs without limitation. The barbarian chose the rage flaw. Really?
On the other hand, two of the players asked me if their dependency could be different, and I allowed it - for one it was a dependency on flayleaf, and for another, a (in my opinion near-crippling) dependency on dalliances with the opposite sex. Both very flavorful, and exactly what I'd expect to see in a flaw.
Not to say that a weakness for flails or something wouldn't make sense (the cleric in my group had an awesome backstory where he grew up as a slave and was beaten endlessly, hence his weakness for flails), but the barbarian was just min/maxing.
In any even, used right I think the flaws are great. Used wrong, and they're going to ruin versimilitude, or you're playing with the Knights of the Dinner Table, or it's just the GM screwing the players.
I think it'll work out okay though - after all, ALL of this stuff is just going to be a toolbox in my opinion, rather than a "thou shalt use the rules, all the rules, and nothing but all the rules" situation. There's too much craziness with this level of power to not use them in a more interpretive way.
So with the playtest update, many of my issues are solved. Mythic power does not reward a single high attribute but is tier based instead. Flaws are a GM option. Lesser trials are a GM option. All good things.
The issues that remain for me are as follows.
1. Complication. The sheer amount of moves and the different activation times highly complicates the combat. A lot of these moves do not seem to add breadth, and that is what is best served by adding a parallel advancement mechanic.
2. Swift action overload. So many classes and feats rely on swift actions that mythic noticeably taxes characters that make use of them. I would much rather have spending a mythic power point to be a free action that can only be done once a round.
3. Offense over defense. DR penetration is horrible given the amount of already existing DR penetration in the game and the low DR and the low hp/survivability of higher end monsters. The sample titan I built in the GM board shows that off nicely. Adding DR ignoring abilities that target different types of DR across the board is bad. Defensive abilities could stand to be increased.
d12 roll. Ew!
And I go from 9 mythic power per day to 4, so it's a big cut. 4 doesn't seem like that many to last through an adventuring day at this level, but we'll see how it plays.
Reducing the number of mythic points by nearly a quarter seems cripplingly strange; it is little more than a layer over the current rules already... now, it will be an inneffective and seldom usable layer? All the hassle, fewer rewards. Reducing access to mythic does not reduce the complication it adds.
This sums up some of my feelings.
And I go from 9 mythic power per day to 4, so it's a big cut. 4 doesn't seem like that many to last through an adventuring day at this level, but we'll see how it plays.
From 13 to 4, and now with no meaningful feat to take (especially since mythic spells is likely to result in something else I never use for lack of mythic points). Dual Path it is I guess? Would it have been that hard to simply say that dual focus now flat increases uses by X?
The lack of meaningful mythic feat options for people that don't have things like iron will is every noticeable (e.g. for spellcasters). What, are we just supposed to take mythic spells over and over again?
We had our first combat in a few weeks the other day, using the changes made in the playtest update. The party teleported in on a bunch of journeymen level rogue/fighters surrounded by low level rogue/fighter allies.
Basically this fight does not in any way require mythic to win. Given the party's overwhelming superiority it can slaughter its opponents pretty freely. But that's boring. What's the point of a mythic system where you have to shepherd all of your mythic points for the big fights, and never get to use them otherwise or risk running out entirely? What is mythic, fun, dynamic, or exciting in any way about only being able to use an entire rule set we are piling on top of an already complicated system in one combat or day? Further, how do some use activated abilities usable in only rarely improve the game in any way?
It surprised me was just how swiftly one can burn through mythic points - or be forced not to use them at all. I'd predicted such a result earlier when the change to mythic points was announced, but seeing it in action really drove home just how much I dislike the current mythic use formula, and that it absolutely must include some kind of accommodation for level. I'd even prefer the old ability score based formula. With 4 mythic uses per day and the number of combats we face on a regular basis at this level it is very probable that after this one (which is still in progress) we won't see a single use of mythic for some months to follow because we've all burned out our points for the day (and the day IC is likely to span multiple weeks OOC).
Only a single point of Mythic power was spent in the entire fight, and even it was probably unnecessary. My fighter used Fleet Charge to get in position to attack somebody who died before his next turn anyway.
I wouldn't even have done that if I hadn't had a bonus use of temporary Mythic Power (the GM houseruled that any Hero Points you earn over the cap roll over into temporary Mythic Power that expires if not used in 24 hours).
Only a single point of Mythic power was spent in the entire fight, and even it was probably unnecessary. My fighter used Fleet Charge to get in position to attack somebody who died before his next turn anyway.
I wouldn't even have done that if I hadn't had a bonus use of temporary Mythic Power (the GM houseruled that any Hero Points you earn over the cap roll over into temporary Mythic Power that expires if not used in 24 hours).
I assume you are speaking only about yourself, because at least three mythic points were spent in the fight - and perhaps as many as six. My memory is fuzzy on the actions of one PC during the game.
Sword and board fighter here again. Still level 15 and tier 1. I've used 2 mythic points so far in the fight, which is probably? about halfway over. I've seen about ten or eleven used overall I think, from five PCs and one mythic friendly NPC.
It might also be mitigated by adding some way to regain points over the course of the day. While the lesser trials you weren't attempting initially did that, they were pretty unbalanced and ad-hoc (see above). Something along the same lines but better designed might also help the problem.
But yeah. I could see those running dry real fast if we have another 20+ fight day like we did a few days ago, given that we've used about half a normal daily allotment on half of one fight.
Onto our second encounter of the day, Level 15 / Tier 1.
I believe almost everyone, if not everyone, is out of mythic points already. We've spent three rounds slugging it out with a high level mythic fighter / _____. Our two fighters did something like 720 damage in a single round between hero points and mythic points, which was not sufficient to even begin to drop whatever we were fighting.
Continue to feel the same way about mythic points needing to include level in their formula. Encounters are too long, brutal, and frequent at higher levels for 4 points to be even remotely meaningful.
Also, the fact that surge is still a swift action / immediate is just sad. Can we please get a damn update of it to a free action? We had several occasions where it seemed not only thematically appropriate but actually mathematically meaningful, but where it wasn't used simply because the characters swift action was already used (especially true for the bard and the sorcerer in the party).
Sword and boarder here again.
Onto our second encounter of the day, Level 15 / Tier 1.
I believe almost everyone, if not everyone, is out of mythic points already.
I still have a couple (if I live long enough to use them), but I know that myself and Rath are the only ones with mythic left, and Rath is on his last one. Given that we are only halfway through the second encounter of the day (albeit it is a tough one), that isn't a good sign. And nobody has been using mythic every round or otherwise blowing through the points overly, IMO. So I agree with this feedback.
As far as the swift/immediate action thing for the mythic points, I find myself in agreement. Sometimes when casters are complaining about something that is only bad for them - playing as I do a fighter whose ability to warp reality through class features is slightly more limited - I snicker secretly just a little in schadenfreude-induced glee. But this is not one of those times. That rule is, to my mind at least, clearly working out poorly for the party in practice. Our DM commented that our sorcerer had a perfect opportunity come up to use mythic power awesomely - he'd rolled to dispel CL 19 on what we were pretty sure was a CL 20 sword of doom that was exactly one initiative count away from being used to carve my fighter a new one. But he'd used a quickened dispel to do it... so no dice. Pretty sure that rule has become universally disliked even among those of us who have no nonmythic swift actions now.
So we just finished the fight against Warduke, here represented as a CR 20 fighter designed by our DM. Second fight of the day, as mentioned. He was not upgraded with mythic tiers for this playtest.
Our APL is 16 (fifteen levels, one tier) modified up by one for a six member party, making it 17 modified. Thus this an APL+3 encounter. This is on the high end of encounters that are expected to be on average winnable for the PCs. APL +4 basically, as near as I can tell, marks the fifty-fifty point (a party of four whose exact duplicates in abilities and gear step out of a mirror of opposition and attack is facing an APL+4 encounter) and any above that is increasingly favoring the monster to win.
We lost, disengaging and retreating after four rounds. Since this is so far the only playtest result I've seen where a mythic party has lost an encounter within their game-expected range of difficulty (I might have missed some, of course, I haven't read everything) I'll try and put a little extra effort into examining what role mythic might have played here and how it compares to what a level might have offered in this particular fight. The mythic tier is after all what makes the difference for us here, theoretically, between an encounter we should win and one where that is not the assumption, after all. An APL 15 six member party would be at that APL+4 mark here, so, not expected by the game to win. We were also popping mythic points (and other things like hero points) like there was no tomorrow in such a tough fight, so it was probably the best opportunity we have created so far to observe their impact.
So... a second post coming up! Auto update is insisting to shut down my PC, and it's already late, so I'll leave this here for now and come back with some meat later.
Short Mythic Feedback
Just finished updating Mythic Katrina (my 15th level wizard) to tier 2. Wow, mythic two is awful. Literally not a single worthwhile archmage ability that she qualifies for, and no feat to dip into another class with. The process of picking one went a little something like this.
"I could take this I guess, not great but better than noth... tier three required."
"Well, I guess this is ok as a fall back... tier five, are you kidding me?"
"No other choice than this then, it's the only other one that actually adds a meaningful.... wow. Tier eight? Seriously? Damn it..."
Similarly, the mythic spell selection could use some work. Mythic invisibility isn't horrible, though not strictly her thing. Mythic fireball is pathetic. Almost never worth the points. I looked at magic missile, but even if I had access to the greater version, 3 mythic points for 20d4+10 (average 60) seems like an awful raw deal when you only receive 5 total by default. Like six mythic cure wounds and a similar number of inflict, but only three other conjuration spells. This is sad. I would have taken mythic cloudkill, but don't have it in my spellbook for a variety of reasons.
The ability score boost is the only worthwhile thing here, giving her an extra spell slot of 4th and 7th level (though nominally only 4th - there is a small house rule in play). She'd have gotten more spells out of level 16 or 17 though. The bump to DCs is appreciated, but not as much as 8th level spells would be.
Overall, just... wow. So sad. Give me 17th level instead please. Right now the idea that a mythic tier = a level is laughable. Maybe 1/2 a level. Sort of on the fence about that.
Since I'm pretty sure Peter's quotes above are paraphrased from my own griping during the tiering-up to tier 2 process, I'll just say that I ran into the same problem. Fighter 15, Champion/Trickster, as a reminder.
I had taken a trickster skill focused power (Majestic Countenance, which is an example of a mythic power I've really liked for an effect that is mechanically unique, cool, simple ruleswise, and useful) at tier 1, and wanted to take a more martial focused one off the champion list at tier 2. However, I could not find a worthwhile one to pick. Every power that I felt would be useful to me as an ECL 17 character required at least tier 3. The only non tier requiring choices were either specialized (jump attacks, sundering/smashing, etc) in specialties my character did not share (I am not a jumper or a sunderer), or else simply fairly useless (bleed damage has only come up at all about once every twenty or thirty encounters, and has never been a decisive factor in an encounter; becoming immune to bleed is not worth the same as a class level!)
(Actually, for an appreciation of how unattractive I found the stanch wounds ability, I declined to pick it even knowing IC that one of the bosses of this adventure is specialized in vile bleed damage... yeah... even guaranteed that I would in short order face the kind of enemy this power is as useful as possible against, it still isn't useful enough to pick given that it will be 100% useless in every other encounter).
Ended up picking Feat of Charisma, for sheer lack of worthwhile martial choices. It will be useful (and already has been in this Saturday's game) but it was not the direction I wanted to go.
The basic martial strikes have been the only mythic power I have used in combat so far. Fleet Charge is good, we all agree, but it strains to be worth two levels all by itself, especially with an extremely limited number of uses per day at a level where we ought to be (and otherwise are) able to handle a lot of daily combat.
Amazing Initiative in its updated form is not as strong for me as the basic Fleet Charge (it's basically an extra attack or a move to set up a full attack, while Fleet Charge is both for the same price, and the attack has a bonus and beats DR to boot) and I don't predict it will get much if any use in combat from me in the future.