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Celebrate resourcefulness. This isn't a videogame.I celebrate and reward resourcefulness just fine Malignor. I also do my best to be aware of potential game exploits. The difference between "resourcefulness" and "exploit" is hard to define in any way that everyone would agree with, but everyone agrees that it happens at some point.
When it comes to the general guidance that lower level spells should not be able to duplicate the effects of higher level spells, that is directly coming from the Paizo game developers as advice to deal with "resourcefulness" gone amok.
The stats on an ice sheet are significantly weaker than that of a Grease spell, and that's what I'm using in backing up my argument, which (BTW) doesn't disagree with your at all.
Resourcefulness is good, exploitation beyond reason is bad; that's a "derp". But in reading the OP, my concern is the first impression to creativity - "OMG H4X" at ... making ice sheets or ice balls? OP, take a moment and ask yourself just how bad that really is. Do the numbers and realize that even these "h4x" are significantly below what a level 1 spell can do.
I've played with many GMs who burst out in exclamations of incredulity and protest just because someone did something smart, like cast invisibility on a wooden panel of a trap to see its inner workings ("What do you mean you can cast it on objects!?!"). Spells and abilities shouldn't be limited to just the intended use of the GM's interpretation, and if they are, that's a buzzkill GM, with a sense of fun that oppresses the fun of his players; not good. So I said what I said to paint such a suppressive GMing approach for what it is. With any luck, that line of thinking will be recognized and circumvented appropriately.
Enjoyment of the game is a group effort, with the GM leading the charge. Micromanagement and restrictive dictatorship is not a good way to lead the charge toward good times.
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As to the specifics, Ray of Frost does 1d3 cold damage. That's enough to turn a weak human being into a casualty, some of the time. It's slightly less than the average stabbing, and as much as a punch in the face with a steel gauntlet from someone of average strength.
So as cold damage, what would that do? Brutal localized frostbite sounds about right; enough to freeze maybe a pound of soft tissue solid. IRL, very painful and debilitating (like the other 1d3 damage examples). Apply that to water and you freeze maybe what... 1 to 3 cubic feet of water at most? So average it out to 2x2 square feet of a puddle, realize that 5' square ice sheet is 25 square feet (needing 6-7 RoF) and is pretty weak anyway, especially considering the Grease spell by comparison which has way higher DCs, a more powerful effect, and has multiple uses (disarm, anti-grapple, etc).
Is it resourceful? Yes. Is it creative and outta-the-box? Yes. Does it make sense? I think so. Is is an OP exploit? I have serious doubts that it is. So then ask: Where's the problem?
That's not helping your case any.
:)
Here's what I'm going with:
1. In the fluff it says the ray springs from a pointed finger. The description is "Ray". These two make me lean toward the "One cubic inch" of area affected.
2. It's called Ray of Frost and the fluff says cold air and ice, so it must generate enough cold to freeze water.
3. A precedent has long stood that one level's spells shouldn't replace another with a single use but I WOULD be open to a discussion of multiple applications doing SOMETHING.
Adding all this together...
If the party had all the time in the world and needed to make a floor slippery, they could create water and make the case, based on environmental conditions that inch by cubic inch they could freeze over a 5' square in 3600 rounds, or 10 hours.
Now of course, as has been suggested, this would be made faster by the addition of costly components, a series of PC build decisions and specific feats. This could also be improved by superior environmental conditions. Or the whole exercise could be circumvented by the use of a SINGLE first level spell: grease.
Now before anyone accuses me of being anti-creative or some other darker epithet, bear in mind that this sets the precedent that, given time and a TON of money spent on wands, one could conceivably do the same with an admixtured scorching ray converted to cold. Only now they're doing it with more damage which conceivably contains more energy and therefore covers more area...
In short I come back to the same thought over and over: if I allow such exceptions then they become cannon and therefore subject to further potential abuse in the unforseen future. Now of course there are those who say "so what" and "if they can you can" but I don't need any more tools in my arsenal. I think if I allow these kinds of exceptions at all, I'd make it more like Power Stunts from the Marvel Super Heroes game of the early 80's: the conditions exist for you to possibly pull this off here and now, but it may not be that way next time.
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I see the spell like holding a can of compressed air upside-down and striking something with the propellent, except at 30 feet. It is very cold for a brief moment, but the cold dissipates extremely quickly. I can's see the spell freezing anything solid in any reasonable amount of time. Its overall core temp would need to be lowered and kept at the lower temperature. The delay from pausing to recast would be enough to cause the temp to raise closer to normal, slowing the process.
You know, I think I'm almost okay with using Ray of Frost to make a single square some kind of slippery surface. It would take a ton of time, casting the spell over and over again; many minutes, probably, since you're using a very brief cold effect to lower the temperature of a spot a few degrees, over and over, then moving to a new spot to freeze it, then going back to the first spots which have started melting while you attended others.
In a way, it's kind of like following the Light spell limitation of: One Light active at a time. In the same vein, if you use Ray of Frost in a typical area, by the time you've 'frozen' another square, the first has melted. If I have a character that can predict the battleground of a fight, furnish water to cover a spot and has several several minutes of time to loudly cast spells and prepare a square for a small debuff, maybe that isn't so bad.
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RoF does 1d3 lethal damage.
You realize that's as much as being punched - full force and with killing intent - by an average person whose fist is covered with a gauntlet.
1d3 is as much as a thrown rock, like a good one that fits your hand, weighing around a pound. Go throw a rock at your friend, or have him/her throw one at you. I mean hard, as hard as you can, like you mean to kill each other.
Now compare that to a squirt of compressed air.
1d3 damage is still damage.
1 point of damage is stepping on a caltrop.
Go step on a nail, see how that works out for ya, and again compare it to the compressed air thing.
Ray of Frost is just as damaging/destructive and painful as the thrown rock, the iron-plated fist, or two caltrops. It's not just a "oooo that smarts". It's "patient to admitting room A for treatment".
I'd say it's like having a glass of liquid nitrogen splashed on you.
I'd say it's like having a glass of liquid nitrogen splashed on you.
I'd say you seriously underestimate the danger of a glass of liquid nitrogen being thrown on you... Assuming it hits skin.
And even if it were comparable, you would be surprised how little water a glass of liquid nitrogen would freeze.
For whatever it's worth, here's a Youtube video of about two gallons of liquid nitrogen being thrown into a pool. It evaporates within seconds and doesn't even form any ice.
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That's pretty neat!
Learn something new every day...
As for underestimating, a thrown rock can potentially kill a person. A punch from a iron-plated fist could result in a jaw being wired shut while the bone heals, or a broken rib or two. These are both 1d3.
Ray of Frost would be comparable.
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Something to keep in mind. At lvl 1 a caster can be at 6 hp. A lvl 1 commoner could easily be at 3 hp. This cantrip does 1d3. It's strong enough to outright kill aunt Betty.
Actually, it wouldn't outright kill aunt Betty. It would reduce aunt Betty to zero HP, but wouldn't kill her. Now if you kept hitting her with it after being reduced to zero HP, then yes. But otherwise, no.
That's pretty neat!
Learn something new every day...
As for underestimating, a thrown rock can potentially kill a person. A punch from a iron-plated fist could result in a jaw being wired shut while the bone heals, or a broken rib or two. These are both 1d3.
Ray of Frost would be comparable.
OK, so let's agree on the fact that a thrown rock can kill a person.
A glass of liquid nitrogen, on the other hand, probably wouldn't. Not immediately anyway. But if it hit enough skin the freeze damage to the skin could cause enough necrotic tissue that you might wish it had killed you.
Still I retract the comment about underestimating the damage caused by a glass of liquid nitrogen. From a pure damage perspective, where damage is measured in units of lethality (hit points) then the thrown rock is actually probably more dangerous than a glass of liquid nitrogen.
I for my part would accept it if a player wanted to use weapon focus (ray) and dazzling display with a ray of frost, because it is cool and creative.
I would not allow a player to use ray of frost to freeze water or other liquids. Other than perhaps as a fluff description for the aid another action. "When Greg tries to trip the troll I'll hit the floor with a ray of frost to make the floor slippery"
I'm not debating the damaging effects of the spell, just its unintended side effects. The player in question has Point Blank Shot and a vial of liquid ice. As a result he can deal 5 damage with one of these rays.
That's enough to kill (or reduce to 0HP rather) a bestiary-standard Goblin Warrior 1.
Even that damage however is open to interpretation. A small, bludgeoning object like a hammer or a stone can deal about 5 damage; it dents the skull causing brain bleed, caves in a jawbone or what have you. A dagger could also deal this damage with some significant strength behind it, leaving gaping stab wounds.
Going back to the fluff and descriptions of rays in general, for MY games (doesn't have to be for yours) the RoF is the circumfrence of a finger. Therefore it doesnt affect a lot of surface area. What is its damage mechanism then?
Burrowing tissue damage, like the freezing equivalent of a laser in my games. I can't stress enough how this is only for the way I GM and doesn't have to be the universal norm.
Anyway, in the case of my PC, I'd describe a lethal shot as him drawing extra power and focus, tightening the beam through the vial while at the same time being close enough to pinpoint some vital area, burrowing a hole into the internal workings of the creature (like a lung or heart, maybe through an eye into the brain). This causes it to go into shock and if it's a mook it just drops but if it's an elite it hits the floor, its breath coming in shallow breaths and such.
Even if these 5 points of damage were enough to kill it outright, I'm not going to say that this ray, by virtue of being lethal, froze this enemy or some major chunk of it solid.
But that's not the debate of this thread.
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How much damage it takes to kills low level stuff is not too relevant as to describe the freezing effect. Damage is abstract and none too realistic. A level 20 fighter that takes a critical hit from a dagger is barely scratched, but if you think of it logically, I don't care how tough or experienced in combat you are, a knife to the neck, lung, or heart is going to mess you up in a bad way, even though it only did 5% of you hit points. On a side note, that is why I like the vitality/Hit Points system. Criticals go straight to vitality, which is low for everyone.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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With abstract HP, the 'vitality' is already built in. A max damage crit ray of frost, say 6 points of damage, wil drop a commoner. Clearly you hit him in the throat or something.
The same damage will irritate a 5th levle fighter. Maybe he turned aside and got hit in the shoulder or a glancing blow.
*shrug* using it to 'aid another' is one thing. Being Bobby Drake with a cantrip isn't.
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To be fair, I don't think you're going to get a definite ruling on this because it doesn't exist. Ultimately it's going to be your call. My advice: No, it does not freeze anything. I say that for the very reason you felt the need to start this thread. Is casting ray of frost over and over to freeze a five foot area solid overpowered? Probably not, but you have to maintain continuity. What happens when a higher level sorcerer with the elemental bloodline casts fireball and changes it to ice? Flash freeze? I really don't think so...
I house rule things very very rarely because it's a very fine line to unbalancing the game ridiculously (with some players) because decisions you make innocently enough early on can come back to haunt you.
A spell does what it says it does.
A burning hands spell will ignite flammables because it says it does. A ray of frost will not because it says nothing about "freezables".
As far as using a cantrip to aid another (a nifty idea), compare this to resistance or guidence two cantrips specifically meant to aid others and they only grant a +1 bonus.
My take on Ray of Frost (as a guy who took physics in highschool)
Using ray of frost to freeze water makes sense, granted it could a while. Depending on the environment, the slow cooling could easily be undone and made negligible.
Iceball: I see nothing wrong with that, keeping in mind that the flask would thaw out.
Sheet: Slippery floor sounds like a good idea. Keep in mind the increased area would make it melt very quickly.
"Snow": You would need a way to cast both drench and ray of frost at the same time, and even then one could easily argue that aiming a ray at such a spread out water source would be impossible.
Ray of frost + Ray of fire: They're thinking outside the box, but it wouldn't work. Heat/Cold/Heat/Cold to weaken a material works on the principle of drastic temperature change. Ray of frost and Ray of fire wouldn't be able to heat up/cool down the material quickly enough to cause an effect on the integrity of it.