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Well I'm not big on mmo games anyways, I'm still on the fence about it. I'm not gonna drama this by saying this turned me off. I'm considering the game but not sure if ill have much time at that point, hoping to be knee deep in phd studies at that point. Still, one thing I liked about EQ was there was a lot if banter amongst enemies and friends on our Pvp server, and I think the industry isnt as permissive of it. Back then if we got mad at someone the gms told us to resolve it through Pvp, that worked for me !
Goblin Squad Member
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As a male it's easy to forget how much privilege we feel entitled to because the world says its okay. When someone says "don't do that" we feel something is taken from us. When actually it's the opposite, you have an opportunity to step outside yourself and realise that other people weren't born in easy mode.
First: these Messageboards are owned by Paizo. We are guests in their house, so just like a party you should behave as if you are a guest. If the host says a certain behaviour isn't cool then change your behaviour. Makes for a more fun party.
Second: there's plenty of places for off colour jokes on or off the Internet. This isn't one of them.
Third: read the posts again. This is an honest open discussion on the behaviour Paizo (and by extension Goblinworks) wants to see in their community. Lets remember that before saying we're being disrespected.
Fourth: If we all agree women are great, lets listen when women say this is how to encourage more women into the community. I have women who play tabletop games in my home games because I listen to their concerns.
Five: When women are expressing their concerns listen to them, do not speak for them. "You're being too sensitive."
"You're overreacting."'
Are statements that tell another person how to feel. We don't get to decide that, we get to decide how to behave with the knowledge that feelings are or could be hurt.
Six: Be excellent to each other and party on dudes (dudes being an all encompassing word that includes every gender, nationality, religion, creed, ethnicity, sexuality and goblins).
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Five: When women are expressing their concerns listen to them, do not speak for them. "You're being too sensitive."
"You're overreacting."'
Are statements that tell another person how to feel. We don't get to decide that, we get to decide how to behave with the knowledge that feelings are or could be hurt.
Dubbed in recent years as "mansplaining", which is another negative practice that gets celebrated in some circles.
I'm not seeing how the Paizo staff are overreacting. After seeing far too many geek communities develop a toxic atmosphere, I think it's entirely justified to want to nip it in the bud.
They put their concerns far more gently and tactfully than I would have on a first pass.
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Truth is I've seen two paizo people post in this thread, both of which I've never seen post on the PFO forums. I may be wrong there, but if that is indeed the case it looks like you care more about grinding axes and a crusade and less about the game. If you're just another poster fair enough, but it strikes me as a bit strange as employees to do so. Just the way I see things anyways :)
Just a point of clarification regarding this issue (coming from me, an employee, who doesn't often post in the PFO section of the boards). It's part of all Paizo employees' jobs to participate in Paizo's online community. Some employees are more active than others based on the specifics of their individual jobs and the amount of discussion surrounding topics relevant to them, but everyone is expected to stay abreast of the goings-on here, even if we don't all post in every thread. Given that the topic of discussion of this thread was relevant to the employees in question, it's neither out of line nor unexpected for them to post here. I'd expect the same if folks were talking about the impact having an MMO was going to have on Pathfinder Society; it would be surprising if Ryan or Vic or another more frequent poster on all things Goblinworks didn't stop in to express their opinion or to clarify something.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dubbed in recent years as "mansplaining", which is another negative practice that gets celebrated in some circles.Five: When women are expressing their concerns listen to them, do not speak for them. "You're being too sensitive."
"You're overreacting."'
Are statements that tell another person how to feel. We don't get to decide that, we get to decide how to behave with the knowledge that feelings are or could be hurt.
I find the usage of that word offensive. This is exactly what I am talking about. Three people marked this as a favorite.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yep nail on the head there. Once again the paizo person in question who was involved in it education is favoriting it. The level of hypocrisy is quite frankly astounding.
I'd hate the PFO community to take on certain elements that other online games have. Especially before it's even released.
What elements are those?
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I find the usage of that word offensive. This is exactly what I am talking about. Three people marked this as a favorite.Dubbed in recent years as "mansplaining", which is another negative practice that gets celebrated in some circles.Five: When women are expressing their concerns listen to them, do not speak for them. "You're being too sensitive."
"You're overreacting."'
Are statements that tell another person how to feel. We don't get to decide that, we get to decide how to behave with the knowledge that feelings are or could be hurt.
Favoriting a post allows one to see it in the future, compiled with other favorited posts. It doesn't necessarily mean someone likes or agrees with the content of the post in question. I frequently favorite threads that point out errors in products I've worked on, not because I'm particularly happy about those errors making it to print, or in thanks for someone pointing it out. Rather, I favorite it so I can find it again in the future with ease among the thousands of other posts I've read in a week's time. I wouldn't read too much into who favorites what posts, since there's no way to know from a simple "favorite" toggle what someone's motivations for favoriting it was in the first place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dubbed in recent years as "mansplaining", which is another negative practice that gets celebrated in some circles.Five: When women are expressing their concerns listen to them, do not speak for them. "You're being too sensitive."
"You're overreacting."'
Are statements that tell another person how to feel. We don't get to decide that, we get to decide how to behave with the knowledge that feelings are or could be hurt.
I think this is pretty indicative of why having this discussion here is inappropriate. Now we have another instance of offensive language. It also hasn't yet been responded to officially.
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I hope that people reading my posts here understand that I'm making a distinction between personal and professional freedoms and responsibility. That is all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Five: When women are expressing their concerns listen to them, do not speak for them. "You're being too sensitive."
"You're overreacting."'
Are statements that tell another person how to feel. We don't get to decide that, we get to decide how to behave with the knowledge that feelings are or could be hurt.
I don't find this argument to have much merit. I really am trying to be civil with what I'm saying here, and to express my disagreements without being overly offensive, or delving too much into personal or political issues. It's a very hard thing to do sometimes.
I don't think people expressing certain opinions deserve a carte blanche just because of their gender or the issue they are addressing. Everyone needs to be held to the same standards of civility on every issue. I feel one side is kind of getting a pass.
I'm not even arguing that Aaron was justified. I just think the reaction was more than the offense merited. I think some of the other comments being pointedly ignored are just as bad or worse than the original offense. It's not about who's right. It's about what is fair.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So is it that the women who took up the discussion are staff members the thing that's bothering you?
That is not my problem, though I can see where it is generating a problem for some people. I've seen Paizo/GW employees express some pretty forward opinions before and I didn't say much on it because I appreciate their level of activity in the community. Something that devs who don't have the ability to express their opinions in such a way, tend not to do.
I simply feel Aaron, as a man, has gotten a very extreme reaction for making a mildly inappropriate statement.
Had the reaction been. "Aaron, that's inappropriate. I realize you aren't trying to be sexist but those kind of comments are hurtful to some people." I wouldn't have said anything.
He instead got, from multiple people, what I feel was a very extreme reaction. One that would not have been given if this was a woman talking about the "mantality" or as we can clearly see "mansplations." Terms which clearly belittle the thought process and mental capacity of males.
Be honest with me. You didn't favorite that for the purpose of being able to come back to it as much as you did to make a statement. Right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well one could point out v'rels comment about this being little boy humor for starters. I didn't see any outrage from Jessica nor Crystal on that. In fact, I see one person liked it so after I post this ill check who that was. Oh, and not to mention the not so subtle pummeling that I should get over the comment.
Oh and he makes note that not everything is a boob joke. You are correct sir, but the context I was joking of was about "boob armor". Again, not my term.
1) It was "little boy" humor as it's the kind of thing said by little boys. I know, I once was one. Spade is a spade.
2) Within society as a whole it is pretty much accepted that comments, even under the guise of "just a joke" made about gender, race, religion, color, creed, and often politics are best not said as they lead to conflict, evidence what you stirred up here because in your mind if it didn't offend you it's obviously okay to just say it aloud.
Based on your responses here you have missed the point Jessica made (you thought it was your saying boob armor when it was instead you suggesting that all females not wearing it were griefing you) and missing my point here (It's not the boob joke part of what I said, it's the need by a large portion of male gamers to always say something witty or try to be funny)..based on those responses I'd have to believe that you just say stuff and truly don't have a clue that what you say may be construed as offensive.
Every "apology" you gave was a defensive one with "ifs" and "maybes". The high, mature road of just saying "I'm sorry if I offended anyone" and leaving it at that seems to elude you. That or you just don't give a crap...I don't know which is worse.
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To reiterate Mark: the participation of Paizo staff in a discussion is mainly indicative of the person's job, or the relevance of the topic to the individual, much like with any other poster on the Paizo messageboards. Naturally, when a post gets flagged or is seen by a staff member that touches on an area of concern, we deal with it by moderation, or in this case we attempt to engage with our posters to share our views and put forth the values that we enforce as staff members and as individuals. We also aren't isolated and communicate with each other throughout the day, and Paizo employs a not unsubstantial amount of women. It is not remarkable that this thread has attracted this attention.
I'm going to encourage that we try to take some time off and reflect on the messageboard rules and maybe cool down for this discussion. Paizo staff never intentionally attack or villainize any individual that comes to our site. If you want to talk about our moderation practices or voice your concerns, please utilize the flagging feature, the Website Feedback forum or drop a line to webmaster@paizo.com. I'm locking this thread as it has become somewhat tangential, though please feel free to discuss the original topic in a new thread.