Because the three-feat path definitely works. For a number of GMs since the Sylvan AC requires replacing the bloodline arcana AND the first level laughing touch ability it won't fly as a valid choice for Eldricth since the rogue doesn't have a bloodline arcana to give up.
And the AC would be at an effective -5 druid level, I think? (Assuming the rogue doesn't intend to take any of the higher eldritch feats) So far more likely to die.
Plus - familiar who get ALL of those rogue skill points? super handy as aid-another friends.
Yeah, -5 Druid level is gonna hurt. And I guess I can see how GM's could rule it as being unavailable. Personally, I would think the bloodline arcana shouldn't matter that much, particularly because it wasn't there in the first place. But that's getting into houserules.
And oh yes, those skills certainly could come in handy, couldn't they? I think you're right, Arcane sounds a lot more promising than Sylvan.
I was unaware of the Gang-up clarification, my thanks for the correction.
While I will continue to GM it the other way, I am grateful to be made aware of the RAW.
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It's worth noting that SKR's posts in that thread do not comment on the sensibility of Gang Up at all; he engages in a debate on the perceived usefulness of the feat.
That is just not the case. SKR gives his opinion quite clearly. He states This is one of those "unless it doesn't make sense" exceptions. If you counted as your own ally for the purpose of Gang Up, then you'd ALWAYS get a flanking bonus if you had at least one other ally threatening your opponent. It would be a no-brainer feat for rogues because it would mean you could always sneak attack from flanking.The point of Gang Up is to allow *you* to flank someone if your buddies already...threaten the target.
That being said, this particular FAQ entry is problematic in its wording. By using "almost always" and "unless it would make no sense," RAW is whatever you want it to be.
The wording of the text is not the problem. This is another instance where Paizo can not define their intention for every situation in their rules. They leave it up to the players to use their common sense...this is where it breaks down.
This is a bit out of the box, but if you can work it into your concept, a single level dip into Maneuver Master Monk will allow you to perform a dirty trick combat maneuver at a -2 penalty in addition to your normal full attack routine. It does not give your actual attacks a penalty, just the maneuver.
You'd usually want to use it to attempt to blind the target of course, in order to deny them their Dex bonus, but in situations where you've already got the option to sneak attack and another status effect is desirable, you've got the option to hit them with an entangle or sickened, etc. instead. Pretty nice.
In addition, the single level nets you:
1) a bonus maneuver feat (improved dirty trick obviously) which effectively negates the -2 penalty on the maneuver and gets you out of those pesky opportunity attacks.
2) +2 to all saves. Nice.
3) 1d6 Unarmed damage. Now you're always armed and can threaten adjacent if you choose to wield a reach weapon.
4) 1 Stunning Fist attempt per day. Who knows, may come in handy. At least the DC scales with Character level rather than class level.
5) Flurry of Maneuvers, discussed in detail above.
Considering you're a Ninja rather than an ordinary Rogue, the fluff even fits together pretty seamlessly.
After much consideration, I think taking a level in Maneuver Master Monk at level 4 is the way to go for me. This means I will not have to be in a flanking position provided the dirty trick works and will allow me to full attack with 3 sneak attacks.
If I hit with all my sneak attacks while they are blinded, I'll be doing 3d3 + 6d6 + 9 damage at 4th level.
At 6th level I'll be doing 3d3 + 9d6 + 12 + 18 damage.
The question now is how do I maximise my CMB dirty trick ability? I can get an additional +2 to my CMB by placig a Dirty Rose prism Ion stone in a wayfinder. Any other ideas would be welcome.
The other question is if I sneak up on someone through stealth or invisibly and then use CMB Dirty Trick as my initial attack on them, does my opponent lose their Dexterity bonus to their CMD?
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*Snip* SNeak Attack Stuff
While it will not help you right now consider working towards the APG feat "Gang-Up", it helps make flanking quite a bit easier.
Remember you count as your own ally so you only need yourself and one other person for this to work.
Not sure if anyone else found it, but the Gang Up FAQ says that, for this feat, you do NOT count as your own ally. You need two other people to be threatening, which isn't really that hard.
But things that can help:
Gang Up
Improved Feint
As a Ninja, you can get the Vanish trick, but that is usually only good for the first attack.
Concealment lets you hide, which gives you sneak attack:
Smokesticks
Mistmail
Obscuring Mist
Main thing is to educate your allies. Flanking is good for them, too, since a +2 to hit is never a bad thing.
If you are elligible for the trait or feat that boosts your flanking bonus, that isn't a bad thing. Extra bait to flank with you.
As a Ninja, you can get the Vanish trick, but that is usually only good for the first attack.
Until you get invisible blade at 10, and sneak attack all day long :P
Concealment lets you hide, which gives you sneak attack:
Smokesticks
Mistmail
Obscuring Mist
Are you sure about this one? I understand if you can sneak up on your target before combat, you can get them while flat-footed, but I don't think I've seen anything that suggests just being stealthed in the middle of combat grants you sneak attack.
Of course, I might simply be incorrect on that.
Just play smarter.
What are the rest of the party members doing? Even if its a case of waiting for the bad-guys to rush the squishies, you should never be more than a move action (and possibly an accellerated tumble) from a flanking position.
The amount of summons and pets knocking around generally make this even simpler.
Gang Up in this case is no help whatsoever, if two of your companions are already in melee with the target then you already have two squares out of a possible 7 to flank from...
As mentioned earlier, the party changes from adventure to adventure because it is society play. Some party members are more helpful than others. It just depends who I'm playing with each scenario which means I really need to become self reliant.
I agree that Gang Up is a dead end given that your character does not count as an ally.
I understand if you can sneak up on your target before combat, you can get them while flat-footed, but I don't think I've seen anything that suggests just being stealthed in the middle of combat grants you sneak attack.
Of course, I might simply be incorrect on that.
I think this works if the rest of the party is acting as a distraction and your character started the combat in "stealth mode" and you would still need to make an opposed stealth vs perception check to sneak up next to them. I think it would be very difficult to start stealthing after the enemy has already spotted you when combat starts.
The problem I have with it is that Sneak Attack says you get it when
A) your target is denied their dexterity, or
B) you're flanking them.
Flanking is fairly straightforward. But the table of modifiers in the Combat section lists what causes enemies to lose their Dex bonus to AC.
If the attacker is invisible, the enemy loses their Dex bonus.
If the defender is blinded, cowering, flat-footed, helpless, pinned, or stunned, they lose their Dex bonus.
A defender is generally only flat-footed in the first round of combat. Once they've started moving, even if it isn't to engage you, they aren't anymore, at least as far as I know, and to the best of my knowledge, Stealth doesn't give you any opportunities to make them lose their Dex bonus. Which, imo, is not very cool, but that's a different issue.
Again, I may be wrong, and honestly, I'd be kind of glad if I was. But from what I've seen, I don't know how you can use Concealment or Stealth to get sneak attacks. If there is a way to do so, cool, which is why I asked, but otherwise, I don't see how.
Well, Sneak Attack is actually gained whenever the target is denied their Dexterity to their AC (whether or not they have one).
Again, I may be wrong, and honestly, I'd be kind of glad if I was. But from what I've seen, I don't know how you can use Concealment or Stealth to get sneak attacks. If there is a way to do so, cool, which is why I asked, but otherwise, I don't see how.
Stealth Skill: You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.
"Striking from an unseen position" obviously means something but it's not explicitly stated.
The rules under combat state that:
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
This would suggest that perhaps if you are "striking from an unseen position", then your combatant is unaware. Unfortunately the rules governing "unaware combatants" relate specifically to the surprise round.
So if you manage to strike an opponent from an unseen position after the surprise round, then I don't know what it means. I imagine that the combatant would be denied their dexterity bonus. But like you, I'd only be guessing.
Yeah... that's the problem. Stealth itself doesn't actually say it gives you any opportunity for added sneak attacks, though it seems like it should.
I would figure if a rogue can strike vital points while an opponent is aware of them, but also contending with another ally, as per flanking, it should be even easier to strike a distracted opponent in combat if they aren't aware of where you are.
But no specific rules seem to support that, sadly :/