There seems to be a lot of different mention of various smoke/fog effects in this game, many which seem to have varying effects from others.
Here are some varying smoke effects (to which I'd like to mainly discuss 2 of):
- Fog cloud // obscuring mist (pretty straightforward but perhaps one thing could be clarified)
- Smoke from Pyrotechnics (which I guess includes Eversmoking bottle too)
- Smoke as an environmental hazard
Fog cloud obscures all sight past 5 feet. Pyrotechnics and Eversmoking bottle don't provide any detail on range, nor do they provide the detailed effects of the situation (all sight being obscured).
I would assume that it provides full [50%] concealment at all ranges to those inside the area; What do you think?
Would smoke from Pyrotechnics essentially cause blindness to anyone in the fog [who doesn't otherwise have some way to "see"]?
Would an attacker who can see through the smoke/fog get a bonus to hit versus fogged/smoked targets (due to the targets getting a penalty to AC)? I wouldn't think so, since It doesn't mention any of the effects of blindness in fog cloud's description or any other smoke/fog description for that matter, but it would follow logically.
Another thing that would be good to clarify is more specifically how Fog Cloud works.
Fog Cloud's description doesn't specify what a targeted creature needs to be within 5 feet of for it to be treated as 20% concealment— the attacker, or the outside edge of the cloud, or either. By logic, my opinion is leaning towards that if they're either on the edge of the cloud or their attacker is adjacent to them they'd be treated as 20% concealment, but I suppose only on the edge makes sense too, which is maybe the RAI?
The following is just asking the same question in a different way (giving both significant scenarios):
- Would a person within the last 5 feet of a fog effect have [20%] concealment or full [50%] concealment to an attacker outside the fog (and on the same side of the fog as the person on the edge)?
- Would a person 10 feet within the cloud (or more) have [20%] concealment or full [50%] concealment when adjacent to their attacker?
Lastly while on this topic, I'll quickly throw in the question: Would you consider Pyrotechnics smoke to stack with Solid Fog and/or stinking cloud or other effects? I guess there's not much reason to think that different fog effects wouldn't stack (and logically one would think that identical effects would not stack). I guess in real life creating new smoke would push other smoke away (that's all wind is, moving air, the air is just clear), so maybe that's a reason.
bump. Personal opinions are desired/welcome, since as far as I know there isn't an official ruling on the mechanics or anything, so there's no right or wrong answer (or if you think there is, mention that instead).
Here's another question for you -
How does invisibility work in smoke/fog?
Can you tell there's something in the smoke/fog or not?
Can you see where that invisible 'thing' goes if moved in smoke/fog?
Joesi wrote: - Would a person within the last 5 feet of a fog effect have [20%] concealment or full [50%] concealment to an attacker outside the fog (and on the same side of the fog as the person on the edge)? Full concealment, assuming the attacker is not adjacent.
Joesi wrote:
- Would a person 10 feet within the cloud (or more) have [20%] concealment or full [50%] concealment when adjacent to their attacker?
20% concealment.
Fog wrote:
Whether in the form of a low-lying cloud or a mist rising from the ground, fog obscures all sight beyond 5 feet, including darkvision. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment (attacks by or against them have a 20% miss chance).
Matt2VK wrote: Here's another question for you -
How does invisibility work in smoke/fog?
Can you tell there's something in the smoke/fog or not?
Can you see where that invisible 'thing' goes if moved in smoke/fog?
I ran this once! It's a fun trick to use both Obscuring Mist and an Invisibility spell.
As far as I know, there are no rules for invisible creatures displacing fog. If you wanted to house rule it, the precedent would be the fact that invisible creatures displace water and get only concealment (20%) while underwater. A reasonable rule might be that creatures automatically know there is an invisible creature around in a fog, just not where (i.e. no pinpoint).
Whale_Cancer wrote: As far as I know, there are no rules for invisible creatures displacing fog. If you wanted to house rule it, the precedent would be the fact that invisible creatures displace water and get only concealment (20%) while underwater. A reasonable rule might be that creatures automatically know there is an invisible creature around in a fog, just not where (i.e. no pinpoint). I would say displacing fog is the same as displacing water. I'm not sure where you got the "while underwater" part of that though. I would also say that moving through the fog would create visible droplets of water on you, giving you a nice sheen look.
I would say you pinpointed the square and give concealment (50%). Just because the invisible creature is still in the fog, and since a normal creature in fog has concealment (20%), an invisible creature in fog should be harder to hit.
GM Jeff wrote: Whale_Cancer wrote: As far as I know, there are no rules for invisible creatures displacing fog. If you wanted to house rule it, the precedent would be the fact that invisible creatures displace water and get only concealment (20%) while underwater. A reasonable rule might be that creatures automatically know there is an invisible creature around in a fog, just not where (i.e. no pinpoint). I would say displacing fog is the same as displacing water. I'm not sure where you got the "while underwater" part of that though. I would also say that moving through the fog would create visible droplets of water on you, giving you a nice sheen look. Aquatic Terrain wrote: Invisibility: An invisible creature displaces water and leaves a visible, body-shaped “bubble” where the water was displaced. The creature still has concealment (20% miss chance), but not total concealment (50% miss chance). There you go.
I disagree with your house rule for creatures in fog, but I don't make it a habit to argue house rules on the rules forum.
Whale_Cancer wrote: Joesi wrote: - Would a person within the last 5 feet of a fog effect have [20%] concealment or full [50%] concealment to an attacker outside the fog (and on the same side of the fog as the person on the edge)? Full concealment, assuming the attacker is not adjacent.
Joesi wrote: - Would a person 10 feet within the cloud (or more) have [20%] concealment or full [50%] concealment when adjacent to their attacker? 20% concealment.
Fog wrote: Whether in the form of a low-lying cloud or a mist rising from the ground, fog obscures all sight beyond 5 feet, including darkvision. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment (attacks by or against them have a 20% miss chance).
The reason I ask is because logically speaking, to the observer, there's no real depth difference of fog that he's looking through to see the target. In both cases the person is looking through about 0-5 feet of fog. In one case the observer/attacker is looking through several squares of clear/unhindered air then 0–2.5 of fog/smoke, and in the other case the observer/attacker is looking through 0-5 feet of fog, since although the target is right next to him, he has fog obscuring his own square as well as his opponent's square, limiting his vision just as much (or more).
Also notice that in your quote it doesn't specify what the 5 feet is from; it's the point I made in my original post that one could say it's 5 feet from the edge of the cloud, or 5 feet from a character, or both; it's not being specific.
While I don't have an issue with your answer, I was hoping for more of an explanation/reasoning behind it.
Well I at least found some information in the core talking about the blindness part
Quote: In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are
effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a
blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all
opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity
bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4
penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and
most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas
of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most
caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.
While smoke/fog isn't darkness per se, It has the same sort of effect; While it may not be not RAW to have it cause blindness, it seems like it's at least RAI.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Fog/Smoke is not as severe as full blindness. Since you CAN see five feet, you can see the ground in adjacent squares and don't have to worry quite so much about tripping over things as you move, so you don't usually take the half-speed penalty, for example.
Obscuring Mist does exactly what it says in the spell description, no more.
Pyrotechnics does exactly what it says in the spell description, no more.
EDIT: Found the core rules for heavy smoke on page 444. 20% miss chance and fort save to avoid losing the round to coughing and choking.
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