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If I read tumble correctly, you can enter an opponent's space.
My reason for asking this is for this spell
It states you must end in an unoccupied space, but makes no mention of spaces in between. Moving through friendly space is already allowed.
RAW would allow you to move in any direction, there is no mention about up, down, through walls, over pits etc.
RAI I'd guess it is intended to respect the limitiations of normal movement (remaining on ground, observing solid objects like walls).
What it still leaves open is things like being grappled, moving through (or out of) black tentacles, etc.
Simplest use though is considering you're already limited to a straight line, and it has mention of not ending in an occupied space, it seems like a good way to get past opponents. Not passing through occupied space would make it pretty limited.
Thoughts?
Unless a spell/feat/item/whatever explicitly and specifically allows you to break a more general rule, the general rules are still in force.
The rules that matter here are:
Actions per turn
Attacks of Opportunity
Movement
The fact that the spell specifically points out ending in an unoccupied square is not in itself a statement that the rules for moving through occupied squares are suspended. However, any movement you do make does not provoke AoOs from any creature.
Further, you are casting a spell (standard action), moving (move action) and making a single melee attack (standard action), all in one go.
The spell makes it very clear what options are available to you. I will point out that the movement rules themselves do not require that the character be in contact with the ground, but it is assumed.
I would say that no, you can't pass through enemy-occupied squares, since it is still movement, and the spell doesn't say you can break that rule.
YMMV.
I would say you still must observe RAW for occupied/friendly/unfriendly squares. You can obviously traverse empty squares, friendly squares for purposes of this spell, but not an unfriendly square.
If a player pressed, I would argue that making an acrobatics roll to get through the enemy occupied square would disrupt the spell effect.
I see the intent of the spell movement to be like a Johnny Cage style drive-by.
The spell doesn't state that normal movement rules don't apply.
But it doesn't state that you use normal movement.
You start in your square, you end in the target square and you can mage one attack. How you get from A to B is not specified.
Some people read the spell in a way that it just magically transports you to the target square, no matter what is inbetween. Enemies, chasms, walls.
Nowhere in the text it is stated that people assuming this are wrong.
The spell school might be used as an indication. But it is no proof.
There already have been threads on this topic and there will be more until we have an official ruling.
Seems to me you could use Acrobatics to move through an enemy creature's space (if your load/armor permits it).
I'll certainly differ to greater minds than I, but the way the spell is worded, doesn't seem to dictate you can not move through an enemy's space, only that you may attack an enemy adjacent to you during the movement and you must end in a free square.
This is the only place I see the original question answered:
Monkey Shine (Combat Style Feat):
"Benefit: While using Monkey Style, if you successfully deliver a Stunning Fist attempt, in addition to the normal effect of Stunning Fist, you can spend a free action to enter a square adjacent to you that is within your opponent’s space. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. While you are in your opponent’s space, you gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC and a +4 bonus on melee attack rolls against that opponent. If otherwise unhindered, the opponent can move away from you, but if he does, he provokes an attack of opportunity from you even if his choice of movement does not normally do so.
Normal: You cannot enter an opponent’s space."
It says that normally, you cannot enter an opponent's space. There are plenty of places that say you can move through an opponents space.
From a different angle, you have to ask yourself this:
What is a 2nd level spell worth?
The fact that it is intended for melee casters means that already you are a hybrid; your physical offense is behind true melee classes, so the bonus you gain from it is less than an attack from a non-caster, and your spell progression is such that a 2nd level spell is considerably more of your spell resources than it would be for a pure caster.
Add to it the straight line limitation and the distance limitation. If it's intended as a spring attack, the benefit of not getting AoO's from other enemies is greatly overshadowed by the disadvantage of a battlefield rarely catering to the straight unobstructed line. A spring attack can be far superior as you don't have to go past your target, you can weave around and go in any direction.
And while a spring attack requires a 3 feat chain, it is also an unlimited use ability, vs a spell that has a very finite number of uses.
For the spell to be worth learning/memorizing, it has to have a benefit that is useful for more than just 1 session out of 10 or 20.
The spell doesn't state that normal movement rules don't apply.
But it doesn't state that you use normal movement.You start in your square, you end in the target square and you can mage one attack. How you get from A to B is not specified.
Some people read the spell in a way that it just magically transports you to the target square, no matter what is inbetween. Enemies, chasms, walls.
Nowhere in the text it is stated that people assuming this are wrong.
The spell school might be used as an indication. But it is no proof.There already have been threads on this topic and there will be more until we have an official ruling.
Actually the description in the original post proves it's not just a magical transportation.
"MOVE" up to 30 feet. Not magically teleport or transport. Not disappear and reappear.
"leaving...behind you". Indicating that as you progress through your chosen path, you leave visible images. You don't simply poof and pop like Nightcrawler. That's why I likened it to a Johnny Cage shadow kick.
So, yes, how you get from A to B is absolutely specified right in the text.
RAW, the OP is right in that you can ask your DM if you can tumble through enemy space. He might say yes, he might say no. As you said, it's not normal movement.
As far as the "it doesn't say you can't, so you can", that's an interpretation call by your DM.
I would say as part of the movement you can make an Acrobatics check at 5+CMD to try and move through the oponents square.
If you fail you end movement infront of him.
You also have to pay double for the square you're moving through.
I would say as part of the movement you can make an Acrobatics check at 5+CMD to try and move through the oponents square.
If you fail you end movement infront of him.
You also have to pay double for the square you're moving through.
What's the point of a spell if you still need skill checks along the way?
Aside from the fact that CMD gets rapidly tougher to beat as you level up even for a full BAB CMB oriented melee, never mind hybrids (bard/magus) that have a lot of other things on their plate (not to mention acro isn't even a magus class skill).
The spell could definitely be worded better, but as it is worded, with emphasis on the unoccupied ending square...
If it wasn't for the straight line limitation, I'd feel better about the possible limitation of not going through enemy spaces. But as it is, if you start piling on unwritten limitations, it becomes a waste of a 2nd level slot.
I would say as part of the movement you can make an Acrobatics check at 5+CMD to try and move through the oponents square.
If you fail you end movement infront of him.
You also have to pay double for the square you're moving through.
What's the point of a spell if you still need skill checks along the way?
Aside from the fact that CMD gets rapidly tougher to beat as you level up even for a full BAB CMB oriented melee, never mind hybrids (bard/magus) that have a lot of other things on their plate (not to mention acro isn't even a magus class skill).
The spell could definitely be worded better, but as it is worded, with emphasis on the unoccupied ending square...
If it wasn't for the straight line limitation, I'd feel better about the possible limitation of not going through enemy spaces. But as it is, if you start piling on unwritten limitations, it becomes a waste of a 2nd level slot.
The spell doesn't specifically say you can traverse an opponent's square, and you cannot normally do this without the skill check. He's actually allowing the roll, which by RAW he wouldn't have to. If the spell doesn't specifically have provisions for it, the rest of the RAW still apply. The caster doesn't just get to ignore them because "it's a magical spell".
I concur it should be re-worded. I think of it the same way as a charge movement action. Nothing in the way, no going around corners or through doors or walls. If you want to traverse friendly squares, cool, and if you want to traverse enemy squares, make a skill check of some kind. Opponent's CMD + 5 seems a bit high a price to pay, though.
The "point" of this spell is to do a full movement action without threatening Attacks of Opportunity, and do a drive-by attack in addition. That's a pretty damn good thing for a 2nd level spell, no matter how you slice it.
The "point" of this spell is to do a full movement action without threatening Attacks of Opportunity, and do a drive-by attack in addition. That's a pretty damn good thing for a 2nd level spell, no matter how you slice it.
The straight line movement severely limits when you can use this. Against single opponents spring attack remains far better, and against multiple opponents the situation will rarely come up that you can use it. Unless you're trying to engage a reach opponent you're much better off casting something else.
The spell says "up to 30 feet" which I take as meaning the opponent could just be 10 feet away. If we stay by RAW, that the caster cannot move through an enemy space, the spell ends after they get adjacent to an enemy and make an attack. Which means, this second level spell is nothing but a glorified charge. With this in mind, my opinion is still in favor of the caster may move through any occupied space as long as they end in a free one.
You are not using a move action to get from point A to point B, you are using a spell that causes movement.
An acrobatics check to move through an enemy space is part of a move action and affects the distance you can move based on your speed (something not accounted for in this spell).
As a DM, I would rule that you can only move over normal terrain through unoccupied or friendly squares. However, I would not state it as a hard and fast rule, but would wait for a few exceptional circumstances to come up in play before hammering it out.