RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Just for the record, in a default setting like Golarion (i.e., you're using standard rules/content and not custom-statting your NPCs), the entire NPC population has a pre-racial 8 somewhere.
The standard NPC stat array is 13/12/11/10/9/8.
The heroic NPC stat array is 15/14/13/12/10/8.
This means that every NPC "hero" (or villain) starts with an 8. That also means that for races with an ability penalty, one in six NPCs has a 6: One in six dwarves have 6 CHA, one in six elves have 6 CON, one in six halflings and gnomes have 6 STR.
So whatever your general opinion of dump stats might be, keep those facts in mind. (Obviously this changes if you have a homebrew setting with different standard NPC stats.)
No clue how their stats were made to be honest. I just used to chat with the creators of Dragon Lance at the cons. So I have a special fondness for that setting. Margaret Weis even complimented my outfit!
Ok, that's super cool.
Were you dressed as a DL character?
I wanted to dress up but this was after my parent's divorce and there was NO way mom was going to sew me anything related to a "devil's game"... or maybe she was just irate that dad was taking me there. Either way I was wearing a nice turquoise colored outfit.
Dragonlance is pretty special to me too. I learned about AD&D from the inside back cover of Dragons of Autumn Twilight. First TSR book I ever owned :)
I still remember reading that ad, and thinking "Wow, I can play as Tanis? Or Raistlin? Or Flint? Well, no, not Flint... My little brother can be Flint... I HAVE to get this!"
There is a lot of hate on people using dump stats. I think that is silly.
10 is an average score. So if you do not dump stats that would mean your character is atleast or above average in everything. You are a hero so that is a given, but are ALL heroes above average in everything?
I find it interesting to have dump stats. Espcially if you get a racial penalty to it. Running around with a 5 strength or worse yet 5 con(then I guess there would not be much running) makes it interesting.
In my local gaming group and in the cons I went to heard a lot of hate for characters dumping stats. Claiming it is a cheap way to power game, it is stupid, and it makes you rely on your team. Yes it can and usually is used to min/max your character.
The sad part of the arguements that those metagamers told me is that all but one of them had a charatcer with a stat set to 8 or lower. The most vocal against dumping stats had a dwarf barbain with a 6 cha and 7 int. So before you stand on that soap box make sure you are not a Larry Craig and not dumping your CHA like evey other stat dumper has done. Yes it can be stupid.
It is stupid to have my gnome with 5 strenght. A shadow can one hit him with his 53 HPs. I choose what challenges I want to play with and I fully understand there may be issues I do not see coming that could side swipe my character off the map. I choose to give him a 5 strength and I roleplay the heck out of it. I cried when my faction mission was to gather 10 pounds of stone. I throw tantrums when there are ladders that most people could easily climb. I usualy ride in someones backpack, all 35 pounds of me. I enjoy it. I also refuse to buy a wand of cure light because that is a part of the game I do not enjoy is that almost EVERYONE has one. If an item is so good everyone shoudl have, then that is an item the developers should look at reducing.
Yes I rely on my team. No matter what there will be situations where you will need to rely on someone else. I guess you could...
First a thread about "power gaming" now a thread about stat dumping? Not sure the two are mutually exclusive.Could you not have saved thread space and discussed this on your powergaming thread as stat dumping is part of powergaming strategy?
I don't call them "dump stats" I just call them stats.
My character is what is and if people don't like they way I play/run my games then they or I can find others that do.
When my players start getting too stat oriented I throw out a very old way of stat generation and see how they cope. 3d6 assign stats straight down. And as challenging as those games can be they have had some of the most memorable PCs and creative methods of handling situations.
I use 25 point with a minimum of 8 on each stat before racial abilities (well, you can take 7 if you want but you are still only going +2 points for 8) and anyone who takes ability score below 10 is warned that I can and will take advantage of the character's weak ability scores - no whining afterwards that NPCs won't like uncharismatic character or that low-Intelligence character won't be able to recall crucial piece of information...
As a player, I don't like having negative bonuses on anything if I can help it.
As a DM, if you super dump your stat, I will make you play it that way.
I'm actually very keen on the old school way of original D&D. 3D6, straight down the line, no modification. It makes for great stories.
I think last time I went super strict I allowed them to swap papers on creation day if a certain person wanted to play the cleric and the other one was ok playing the thief.
But most of my players are generally theorycrafting builds, so that will piss them off in things like 3.5 and Pathfinder.
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Heroes in my opinion are suppose to be heroic. Unless there is a very specific reason for it, heroic characters shouldn't have glaring flaws. Yea we all know that sickly uber wizard and that idiot barbarian, but they shouldn't be the norm. Also, they shouldn't have more than 1 dump stat.
Flat out, I don't let any of my players drop stats below 8 and then only a max of 2 stats. If you want to dump it lower than that, then it can only be 1 stat and you better have a really good back story for it.
I think it is funny that you use Grendel as your example of why power gaming is good, but then go on to champion dumping stats to make your characters better. Please enlighten me with what Grendel's dump stats were so that he could do what he did. For that matter, what about Conan. Robin Hood. Etc. Heroic characters from history and stories have typically a lot more well rounded then flawed.
Conan's dump stat would have been intelligence. He was wise, but not very bright.
I play into dump stats if they're below 8. I'll make them roll applicable checks and put them in scenarios to overcome their weakness. If they figure it out, I generally leave them alone.
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Says who? If anything I would say Conan wasn't as wise as he was intelligent. I have always felt that Conan was more clever based on this smattering the thieving abilities and his problem solving.
He tended to get himself in over his head a lot which shows a lack of foresight which is in my opinion a major contributor to wisdom. Mind you I am going off the movies and the books I read like 30 years ago.
Also, by dump stat, what are you talking about? I don't consider putting an 8 in something really dumping that stat. That is just a tad below norm. Dumping in my opinion is anything from 7-3.
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I dump stats on my character (usually Charisma) because it's both mechanically helpful, and because I probably have ~7 Charisma IRL. It's much easier to roleplay when you're effectively "you, but a dwarf."
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Sorry, didn't mean to derail this into a discussion on Conan's stats. If you are looking for that, I'm sure there are threads on Enworld.com that will fix your need there.
Seranov, can you really say that you are 'heroic'? I think we can all accept the fact that we are built on at best a normal stat block.
Also, CHA is an easy stat to dump but again is a cheap way for people to get points. You have come up with a good back ground so I would have no problem with that. As long as you didn't dump anything else.
Well, for your table, at least.
I know quite a few DMs who don't care, because as long as everyone at the table is having fun, who cares if half the party has 5 Cha and 7 Int?
I simply stated why I dump stats.
Maybe it's not fun for the GM?
As much as we talk about bad GMs and how they have a responsibility to the players, players have that same responsibility.
Balancing different playstyles is hard. If players can make one or two compromises to improve how much fun the GM is having while still having fun themselves, shouldn't they make that sacrifice?
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Well, for your table, at least.
I know quite a few DMs who don't care, because as long as everyone at the table is having fun, who cares if half the party has 5 Cha and 7 Int?
I simply stated why I dump stats.
Maybe it's not fun for the GM?
As much as we talk about bad GMs and how they have a responsibility to the players, players have that same responsibility.
Balancing different playstyles is hard. If players can make one or two compromises to improve how much fun the GM is having while still having fun themselves, shouldn't they make that sacrifice?
I think what you are saying is "Maybe it's not fun for me?" because none of the DMs I have ever played with have said a single word about disliking us dumping our stats. My DM who let me play an Archer Paladin with 7 Int and 7 Wis (played pretty much as Forrest Gump the Paladin) absolutely loved the character, for example.
I mean, sure, there are DMs who don't like players to dump stats, but I've never played with any of them. If that's how things go at your table, more power to you. I'm just not going to claim you're wrong, nor do you have any right to claim my tables' style is wrong, either.
I'm not in here trying to say that dumping stats should be okay always, just why I do it. Which is really all anyone can bring to the conversation, because the whole topic is based entirely on opinion. Everyone's entitled to their own.
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Well, for your table, at least.
I know quite a few DMs who don't care, because as long as everyone at the table is having fun, who cares if half the party has 5 Cha and 7 Int?
I simply stated why I dump stats.
Ok it is one thing to have fun and another to just completely ignore the game rules.
If i am understanding you based on your post, it sounds like your group dumps Int and Cha, but i'm left with the impression you do not role play those low stats.
A character with a 7 Int should literally be mentally handicapped, and you should be rp'ing your character like a mild retard. A Cha of 5 means you literally cannot function very well in a group, let alone society.
So it is great that you want to have fun, but it sounds like to me you are just dumping stats to get more stats and not playing to the dump stats, so in otherwords you just exploited the system to cheat for more points.
PF i think has taken the crown for dnd because this is exactly the type of thing that 4e did, it neutered role playing while PF gave us that element back along with kick ass art.
It is the thing that i have always wondered about, is why would the non rp'ers want to play pnp TT when they could play any majority of rp video games where rp is not important at all and you can do it at any time you desire.
In all the groups i play in, if anyone dump stats or just has a low stat then they need to play that, it needs to be part of the background ext, as when i gm i force players to play it, and then they get emo about how stupid their character is ext, well after that they dont dump stat their next characters as they know i will make them represent.
In my experience, most people that dump stat, have 0 intentions of playing that weakness. Well point buy is to make it so everyone is on equal terms, and dump statting just means you found a way to get more points with very little penalty if any as that area is just ignored. So now you have characters with unfair advantage.
On the flip, if it is rp'ed like littlehewy's concept, than more power to the player. But in my experiences, dump statting in general is an exploit.
Well, for your table, at least.
I know quite a few DMs who don't care, because as long as everyone at the table is having fun, who cares if half the party has 5 Cha and 7 Int?
I simply stated why I dump stats.
Maybe it's not fun for the GM?
As much as we talk about bad GMs and how they have a responsibility to the players, players have that same responsibility.
Balancing different playstyles is hard. If players can make one or two compromises to improve how much fun the GM is having while still having fun themselves, shouldn't they make that sacrifice?
I think what you are saying is "Maybe it's not fun for me?" because none of the DMs I have ever played with have said a single word about disliking us dumping our stats. My DM who let me play an Archer Paladin with 7 Int and 7 Wis (played pretty much as Forrest Gump the Paladin) absolutely loved the character, for example.
I mean, sure, there are DMs who don't like players to dump stats, but I've never played with any of them. If that's how things go at your table, more power to you. I'm just not going to claim you're wrong, nor do you have any right to claim my tables' style is wrong, either.
I'm not in here trying to say that dumping stats should be okay always, just why I do it. Which is really all anyone can bring to the conversation, because the whole topic is based entirely on opinion. Everyone's entitled to their own.
To me dump statting is about game balance and fairness.
I see far to many players that come into a game with dump stats and have no intention of rp'ing that. Then it isnt a penalty at all, they just cut that section out of their character sheet and ignore it, turning what should be a character weakness into a attribute point advantage.
In my above post, if you do rp your stats then i misunderstood your point, and i would say you have a strong group for being able to handle playing such character complexity. But this is not my experience.
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And, to me, it sounds like you're trying to accuse other people of badwrongfun because they're not playing the same way as you.
Who are you to say that my group is doing it wrong when we're all enjoying ourselves?
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I've seen people here complain about players not role playing out their dump stat, but I've rarely seen it happen. Most people seem to have fun RPing a dumb and/or antisocial character. And when dumping str for my sorcerers (I think they both have 7 str), I've avoided buying rope and grappling hooks in my starting eq because I actually did the math on the encumbrance. I can't remember ever seeing anyone actually dump dex or con.
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I think I started both my sorcerers with 7 str. I limited their equipment because of encumbrance, and have a bag of stuff they don't need in combat that takes them from light to medium encumbered, and I start out every adventure asking someone stronger to carry that bag for them. They also act all nervous about swimming or climbing, since they were never good at that in gym class, and leave the heavy lifting to the barbarians.
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I would like to point out that a 7 INT would be more than just -10% on a roll. We are talking more along the lines of 2 standard deviations from the norm. If you say that a normal INT of 10 is an IQ of 100, then 2 standard deviations would be an IQ around 70. At this point we would be talking about someone where they generally cannot complete elementary school. Most adults will need smarter help in coping with the world. Referring to this site
To be honest, the reason dump stats are a problems is that they are almost always matched up with power gaming. Rarely does someone drop a stat just for roleplaying purposes.
As I have stated in another thread, the problem have with power gaming is as a GM if you have a player that is basically mowing through anything you throw at them, you have to gear your adventures around them. You have to build a obsticle specifically to cause them problems. They can always tell when that villian is built to exploit their weaknesses and it always pisses them off.
In my opinion, power gamers take away from the role playing aspect of the game and I don't like that. That's just me.
And, to me, it sounds like you're trying to accuse other people of badwrongfun because they're not playing the same way as you.
Who are you to say that my group is doing it wrong when we're all enjoying ourselves?
** spoiler omitted **
I didnt say anything of the kind. If you are enjoying yourselves that is great, but if you are doing the things i suggested above then you are exploiting game balance. If everyone in your group does it then you are all fine with that, which is your prerogative, but also re-balances the game to be balanced because everyone is doing it.
But stat buy was put in this game to put all characters on the same page of power, avoiding the imbalance of prior random rolling where one player rolled great and another rolled bad, then you have a big gap between the two that lasts for the rest of those characters game time.
Dump stat and not roleplaying it is exploiting or cheating if you will.
Just like old counterstrike online shooter, as long as everyone is cheating, it is ok, but if one person wasnt then his ability to have fun has just been destroyed.
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I would like to point out that a 7 INT would be more than just -10% on a roll. We are talking more along the lines of 2 standard deviations from the norm. If you say that a normal INT of 10 is an IQ of 100, then 2 standard deviations would be an IQ around 70. At this point we would be talking about someone where they generally cannot complete elementary school. Most adults will need smarter help in coping with the world. Referring to this site
That link is hilariously wrong. Yes, a 7 Int is roughly high-60 to low-70s in IQ, but that educability bit? Complete and total b~$!#%+%.
Anyone, even the profoundly mentally handicapped, can receive a full and complete education. It takes longer, and has lots of extra requirements to help them retain and figure out how to use all that information and training, but to say that someone with the equivalent of 7 Int can't finish grade school? That's more retarded than anything we're discussing.
Seriously, it's a -2 on Int checks, mechanically, and that's it. If you don't like people dumping Int, that's fine, but don't try and dictate what people should have to do at any of the groups I play with when you're not even at the table.
Dump stat and not roleplaying it is exploiting or cheating if you will.
Just like old counterstrike online shooter, as long as everyone is cheating, it is ok, but if one person wasnt then his ability to have fun has just been destroyed.
Cheating? Exploiting? I'm starting to wonder if you're really the one who has any right to be saying other people shouldn't be playing TT PnP games.
Everyone is playing their character. Why should someone who dumped Charisma, because it has absolutely no mechanical merit for their character, have to play like they are the Hunchback of Notre Dame?
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Wait...where am I dictating what you and your friends have to do at your gaming sessions? You can play the game how ever the hell you want. I am just voicing an opinion and explaining how I run it at my games.
Edit - I love how you are championing the mentally challenged and then call something retarded. Nice.
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I would like to point out that a 7 INT would be more than just -10% on a roll. We are talking more along the lines of 2 standard deviations from the norm. If you say that a normal INT of 10 is an IQ of 100, then 2 standard deviations would be an IQ around 70. At this point we would be talking about someone where they generally cannot complete elementary school. Most adults will need smarter help in coping with the world. Referring to this siteThat link is hilariously wrong. Yes, a 7 Int is roughly high-60 to low-70s in IQ, but that educability bit? Complete and total b%@!%*&*.
Anyone, even the profoundly mentally handicapped, can receive a full and complete education. It takes longer, and has lots of extra requirements to help them retain and figure out how to use all that information and training, but to say that someone with the equivalent of 7 Int can't finish grade school? That's more retarded than anything we're discussing.
Seriously, it's a -2 on Int checks, mechanically, and that's it. If you don't like people dumping Int, that's fine, but don't try and dictate what people should have to do at any of the groups I play with when you're not even at the table.
Dump stat and not roleplaying it is exploiting or cheating if you will.
Just like old counterstrike online shooter, as long as everyone is cheating, it is ok, but if one person wasnt then his ability to have fun has just been destroyed.
Cheating? Exploiting? I'm starting to wonder if you're really the one who has any right to be saying other people shouldn't be playing TT PnP games.
Everyone is playing their character. Why should someone who dumped Charisma, because it has absolutely no mechanical merit for their character, have to play like they are the Hunchback of Notre Dame?
Well this response pretty much tells me what kind of player you are, the video game type.
Why someone who is only interested in the mechanical wants to play a 'social roleplaying' game is beyond me. See the irony here?
If you and your group are having fun, as i have said multiple times already, then more power to you. Your group is prolly not the norm that this thread is talking about. Our debate is done as your not grasping the points of fairness, and why a rule system is needed in that regard in a 'role playing' game.
What I mostly don't like about dump stats is that the game encourages it due to low point buy, stats that are irrelevant, and a fairly large bonus for dumping.In my game, you get more points to start, but don't get any bonus for stats bellow 10. You're welcome to drop stats for RP purposes, though. (That separates the RPs from the powergamers with a convenient excuse real quick.)
bad idea. remove the reward for dumping stats, and nobody will do it, in favor of flawless mary sues with no depth.
dump stats, while used by specialists, are hardly a bad thing. the flaws shape a character more than their advantages.
most of the stat dumping classes (anything martial) requires the extra points to keep up with the damned schrodinger's 20 int wizard and his absurd single attribute dependency.
Then Vestrial is correct by your assessment Shuriken Nekogami. They weren't truly interested in playing a weakness, they just wanted the high stats. If they played low stats despite having no reward for doing so then they are really doing it for the role play involved. If they all stop as you suggest then indeed they just wanted more points and were merely using role play as an excuse.
to encourage people to give their character a flaw, you need a proper incentive. hence the extra points. i prefer characters with one or two major flaws over the character who seems to have none. and those extra points from dump stats, aren't being deducted from primary scores, they are being deducted from secondary and tertiary scores. but i too would default to a flawless character if the system either didn't provide an incentive for said flaws, or the penalties for said flaws drastically outweighed the compensatory benefits that served as the incentive.
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Wait...where am I dictating what you and your friends have to do at your gaming sessions? You can play the game how ever the hell you want. I am just voicing an opinion and explaining how I run it at my games.
Edit - I love how you are championing the mentally challenged and then call something retarded. Nice.
And I'm simply stating that the argument you were using is straight dumb.
Being against dump stats is one thing, and I have no problem with that. But I came in this thread to give my opinion on dump stats, and was promptly told I was playing wrong. That's when things don't go so well.
Well this response pretty much tells me what kind of player you are, the video game type.
Why someone who is only interested in the mechanical wants to play a 'social roleplaying' game is beyond me. See the irony here?
If you and your group are having fun, as i have said multiple times already, then more power to you. Your group is prolly not the norm that this thread is talking about. Our debate is done as your not grasping the points of fairness, and why a rule system is needed in that regard in a 'role playing' game.
See? Like this. He's claiming how I play the game is wrong. And THAT is what is really wrong.
And if we're going to get into fairness, how exactly is it unfair if someone in my party decided to give their character with 7 Int but doesn't play like the drooling idiot you seem to think that is? The sorcerer who has 7 Str and doesn't play like a six year old girl who couldn't lift a rocking chair? The dwarf with 5 Cha who doesn't play like a literal social pariah?
Shuriken's point in the following post highlights my opinion on the matter very well. Flaws make good characters, but you don't have to act as if these flaws make you completely incapable of doing anything related to them.
Wait...where am I dictating what you and your friends have to do at your gaming sessions? You can play the game how ever the hell you want. I am just voicing an opinion and explaining how I run it at my games.
Edit - I love how you are championing the mentally challenged and then call something retarded. Nice.
And I'm simply stating that the argument you were using is straight dumb.
Being against dump stats is one thing, and I have no problem with that. But I came in this thread to give my opinion on dump stats, and was promptly told I was playing wrong. That's when things don't go so well.
Quote anyone in this thread that is 'telling' you your playing wrong. I am not seeing that, and if i am wrong i will apologize.
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Totally agreed on people overestimating the stupidity of dumped int characters. A 7 int and 7 wis does not make someone too stupid to behave like a normal human being.
I used to have a step-brother with an IQ around 70. I'm pretty sure he graduated high school, taking remedial classes, and he's normal enough to function as a normal member of society. I didn't even realize he's borderline retarded when we first met, though he definitely seemed like a "dumb hick".
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Look that article was old, but I have since checked a number of additional articles/sites and pretty much all of them have stated that someone in the 70 IQ range is mentally retarded and would have problems completing the 6th grade. Yea they could do it, but you are talking modern society with the required tools to work with someone with these challenges.
On the other hand, this is a discusion about dumping stats in a fantasy roleplaying game. Where someone with an INT of 7 doesn't have the advantages of the kind of support you would see today. To try and tell me that a mentally retarded person would have the same outlook in life in that environment as apposed to present day is just as dumb.
the Dump stats are like a tradeoff.
by dumping charisma to 7 for the 4 extra points, you are saying that you would rather have 4 extra buy points than +2 to all social skills.
now, there are some perks for a taking a 15 charisma in an otherwise charisma dumping class.
Eldritch Heritage. for 3 whole feats you could have
a +6 inherent bonus to strength, a fly speed, spell resistance, or several other nice things.
Look that article was old, but I have since checked a number of additional articles/sites and pretty much all of them have stated that someone in the 70 IQ range is mentally retarded and would have problems completing the 6th grade. Yea they could do it, but you are talking modern society with the required tools to work with someone with these challenges.
On the other hand, this is a discusion about dumping stats in a fantasy roleplaying game. Where someone with an INT of 7 doesn't have the advantages of the kind of support you would see today. To try and tell me that a mentally retarded person would have the same outlook in life in that environment as apposed to present day is just as dumb.
i haven't seen any character in weekly william's group put less than a 10 in intelligence before racial mods. not that a lot of them really care about skill points anyway. but witches are indeed popular thanks to Anira the Drunken Titanslayer. if anything, charisma is our most common dump stat.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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@TClifford - Regardless of the ramifications of 70 IQ, where did you even get the idea that 7 INT corresponds to that IQ level? Keep in mind that (at least in Pathfinder/Golarion), both the standard and heroic NPC stat arrays include an 8. That means that (assuming even distribution) about 1/6th of the human population has INT 8. At a glance, that seems like too high of a portion of the population for that to correspond to IQ 80, though I could be wrong - I haven't checked the data on that.
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Look that article was old, but I have since checked a number of additional articles/sites and pretty much all of them have stated that someone in the 70 IQ range is mentally retarded and would have problems completing the 6th grade. Yea they could do it, but you are talking modern society with the required tools to work with someone with these challenges.
On the other hand, this is a discusion about dumping stats in a fantasy roleplaying game. Where someone with an INT of 7 doesn't have the advantages of the kind of support you would see today. To try and tell me that a mentally retarded person would have the same outlook in life in that environment as apposed to present day is just as dumb.
In our supposed fantasy world, where most people are uneducated, you would be highly unlikely to be able to tell the difference between someone with 10 Int and 7 Int, because none of them know anything beyond what they've been taught. Swordfighting, farming, whatever.
The guy with 7 Int would probably know what he needed to know about his profession and very little else. The guy with 10 Int would probably know more stuff unrelated to his job. But considering all they do is their job, who cares? And I can assure you that guy with 10 Int is not going to want to deal with you asking him questions unrelated to his job while he's trying to work.
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Totally agreed on people overestimating the stupidity of dumped int characters. A 7 int and 7 wis does not make someone too stupid to behave like a normal human being.
I used to have a step-brother with an IQ around 70. I'm pretty sure he graduated high school, taking remedial classes, and he's normal enough to function as a normal member of society. I didn't even realize he's borderline retarded when we first met, though he definitely seemed like a "dumb hick".
Hey hey hey! Careful with saying "Dumb Hick". Some of us from the south were called that a lot because people thought we were all dumb hicks because we come from the south. I know you mean nothing by it but just be careful what you say.
In regard to equating each point of intelligence to 10 points of IQ, that actually spreads things out too much. For example, an IQ of 140 or so is in the top 0.5% of the population and thus would map to an intelligence of 18. Extrapolating from that would give up a 5 point IQ difference for each point of intelligence. This means that, at the other end of the scale, somebody with an IQ of 70 would have an intelligence score of 6 -- possible in game only by random generation or by having a racial penalty to intelligence.
In regard to equating each point of intelligence to 10 points of IQ, that actually spreads things out too much. For example, an IQ of 140 or so is in the top 0.5% of the population and thus would map to an intelligence of 18. Extrapolating from that would give up a 5 point IQ difference for each point of intelligence. This means that, at the other end of the scale, somebody with an IQ of 70 would have an intelligence score of 6 -- possible in game only by random generation or by having a racial penalty to intelligence.
Ok so the avg IQ of the United States is 98, which we could say 100 = 10. A genius is 140+, which we could assume is an 18 Int, and mental retardation is 70 or lower, which .. not sure where to put this on the scale.
We could surmise the opposite that .5% would have a 3 Int. I dont have anything to back this part up with, just using logic.
Where would you put a 70 IQ based on this?
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The curve is based on the 3d6 rule of rolling up characters. When you make a character under these rules, you will form a bell curve. While it doesn't directly match up with the IQ bell curve, there are enough similarities between the two to use them in conjuction. Mind you, only INT can be done this way really as there is no analog for the other stats as far as I know.
As for the standard diviations, I am counting each -1 or +1 as a standard deviation. I don't think that that is too much of a leap there. Given that, a 6 = 70, 8 = 85, 10 = 100, 12 = 115, 14 - 130, etc.
Where this all breaks down is anything outside of 3 - 18 INT. There just isn't an equivalent for a really high or low INT. But within the frame work in this discussion, I don't see any problems with the correlation.
As for 8 being within the normal range, you are correct. I think like 95% of people fall into the first standard diviation off normal. So between 8 - 12. Also for this discussion it needs to be noted that a 7 INT is functionally no different than a 6 INT. And that a 3 INT would be just as rare as an 18.
Based on that, I think I am going to change my stance a little on dumping a stat, but I am going to make one change. While you do get a point back for each point to 8, I think imposing a reduction beyond that is goes along the lines of increasing the cost of each point after 12. So a 7 would only get you 2.5 pts. 3 pts at 6. Then doubleing again after that so you only get 3.5 points at a 4 INT. Sure, you can really dump a stat, but you aren't going to get the same bang for your buck.
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to encourage people to give their character a flaw, you need a proper incentive. hence the extra points. i prefer characters with one or two major flaws over the character who seems to have none. and those extra points from dump stats, aren't being deducted from primary scores, they are being deducted from secondary and tertiary scores. but i too would default to a flawless character if the system either didn't provide an incentive for said flaws, or the penalties for said flaws drastically outweighed the compensatory benefits that served as the incentive.Because you are letting your character concept serve the mechanics, rather than the other way around. "Hey look, I get a mechanical bonus for being an antisocial moron, I guess I'll incorporate that into my concept!" Funny how many people's concept end up being so similar, eh? If it was really a part of the character concept you wouldn't care about a mechanical reward for a weakness. Which is a total contradiction anyway. "I'm flawed, I'm less charming than others. But I'm stronger/dexier/tougher than them!"
Yeah, I like flawed characters too. When they are actually flawed. But people rarely play low int/wis/char appropriately. They just sorta default to their own. And the game has no real built-in incentive to not dump scores, and no built in punishment for doing so. You can dump charisma to 7, then buy a cheap hat of diplomacy and be more diplomatic than the guy with an 18 charisma.
You are Stormwind Fallacy-ing really, really hard right now.
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it's a fantasy game in a universe with completely different rules from our own. where abominations we would find horrifically ugly in the real world, are considered the epitome of sexy. (night hags), a world where humans breed with everything, a world where people can perform nearly impossible feats of athletic prowess by 4th level, a world where the mightiest heroes can wade waist deep through hot lava with little regard for their lives or fall thousands of feet with minor scrapes, a world where old men can chant mathematical formulae, rub thier hands in bat feces, and create a 45 foot diameter globe of fire from over 400 feet away. a world where modern japanese schoolgirls wearing black pajamas can kill fire breathing spellcasting sentient reptiles with thier heirloom tokugawa era daisho. a world where native american shamans, wear the hides of the beasts of the sahara desert, kill brain eating space aliens while taking the form of prehistoric dinosaurs, and commanding thier sentient animated pet tree to assist them, a world where medieval knights, wear rennaiscance era plate armor, worship greek gods, wield roman era falcatas, and slice through sentient jello, a world where young female puppeteers dressed like fragile china dolls, wearing lots of makeup, with a simple cute dance, turn an entire audience into thier personal marionettes, a world where a clueless and sheltered alter boy, can present his silver cross, and due to his faith in the lord, damage all undead in a burst centered around himself, because he beleives in the lord, a world where the local apothecary can further detach himself away from humanity the more skilled he becomes. a world where a little half elf girl can manifest her imaginary friend into reality and have it protect her from local bullies. clearly not intended to mirror our own world.