The church of Aroden, in response to corruption present in the Taldan ruling class during the years of the Grand Campaign, moved its center of worship from Taldor to Cheliax. Later during the same conflict, Grand Prince Stavian I began what is known as the Great Purge; believing Qadira's invasion of Taldor had been assisted by members of the Cult of the Dawnflower, Stavian I outlawed the worship of Sarenrae in 4528 AR.
and as a certain module noted, the rulership of Taldor is now in the hands of a bloodline descended from a family indebted to Asmodeus. that never helps matters.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's starting to get a bit annoying when Asmodeus has his hands not only on Cheliax, but Taldor as well.
Might as well say the whole Inner Sea region has already been conquered by the guy and call it a day if that's the case.
Simple: Waging ethnic war requires waging war on their symbols. Sarenae is important to the Keleshites. Ergo, continuing to allow her worship is implying that Taldor considers this associated symbol of the Padishah empire legitimate. Ergo, it cannot be tolerated.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yep, and the fact that the Church of Sarenrae in Qadira has in part been compromised by nationalists hankering to use that religion's crusader image to spur the people further against Taldor only makes the situation there uglier.
Taldor and Qadira both provide a fairly good look at the sort of evils people will abide in the name of "us vs. them". But even then, there's people on both sides fighting against that mindset and momentum.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd want to run a campaign that deals with civil strife in Taldor (perhaps a bid by Princess Eutropia to take her father's throne after his assassination) leading Qadira to initiate hostilities again, causing chaos when the leadership of that nations branch of the church of Sarenae suddenly lose their powers and attempt to hide it by turning to someone or something... Else.
The world needs heroes to take care of this, remember ? The last guy in charge of those problems was Aroden. So now, you have a whole challenge to purge this by yourself.
Paizo has made it a point not to let PCs kill deities.
Good luck trying to stop Asmodeus for good, knowing that fact.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Isn't releasing Rovagug the equivalent of the DM flipping the table and declaring a rage quit?
That doesn't sound like much of a victory for me, the other players or our characters when you think about it.
|
|
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, if it came to defeating Asmodeus once and for all, I wouldn't go for killing him.
I'd go with bringing Ihys back. That might require being bits of Ihys reincarnated already, but whatever works. But it wouldn't be a fight, that's too easy. Ihys would probably just deliver a verbal elbow-drop of hope like that Chess Knight guy's speech from Top Ten.
And then Mr. CG Personified injects free will into those that have had it taken from them. Hell slowly empties as damned mortals and devils alike wander elsewhere.
Until eventually Asmodeus finds himself alone, in a tiny Hell that has shrunk because all of the component souls that once made it so expansive have now gone. Now Hell only exists for him, because he just can't admit he was wrong. But now he doesn't have anyone else to take it out on. He doesn't have any way to displace the frustration and guilt. And now he is Hell's greatest victim.
And all that time, Ihys will be waiting outside, waiting to take his brother's hand when he finally dares to hope.
...
Of course that doesn't leave a hell of a lot for heroes to do any more at that point, so that's one of those far off speculations that theologians chat about.
Why yes I am a big fan of Origen!
edit-Alternately Asmodeus could just come to terms with the fact that Sarenrae always doms and they finally admit they totally want each other.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd want to run a campaign that deals with civil strife in Taldor (perhaps a bid by Princess Eutropia to take her father's throne after his assassination) leading Qadira to initiate hostilities again, causing chaos when the leadership of that nations branch of the church of Sarenae suddenly lose their powers and attempt to hide it by turning to someone or something... Else.
Did that, even though the campaign focused on other things and the political machination of Princess Eutropia and the social-religious strife of southern Taldor (and the heavy handed skirmishes along the Qadiran border) were limited to a "setting" role. Not really only scenographic elements, but surely not the primary engines of the campaign.
The princess allowed a Qadiran mercenary force to cross the border, using political influence to remove key officers and troops from the army, to fuel a schism in the Lion Blades and have free action for her own undercover agents in a forthcoming popular uprising, engineered by the BBEG - whom the Princess knew was scheming against the whole nation. A double-layered betrayal to weaken opponents and gain further influence, without revealing her role.I ran the campaign with the pre-Inner Sea Guide setting - which I call "Golarion untamed" - and pictured Taldor as a Victorian influenced Byzantium Empire. My players were not simpathetic at first, but the layered conflict (social, political, military, religious, and obviously the innumerable individual ambitions) grew on them.
Personally, if it came to defeating Asmodeus once and for all, I wouldn't go for killing him.
I'd go with bringing Ihys back. That might require being bits of Ihys reincarnated already, but whatever works. But it wouldn't be a fight, that's too easy. Ihys would probably just deliver a verbal elbow-drop of hope like that Chess Knight guy's speech from Top Ten.
And then Mr. CG Personified injects free will into those that have had it taken from them. Hell slowly empties as damned mortals and devils alike wander elsewhere.
Until eventually Asmodeus finds himself alone, in a tiny Hell that has shrunk because all of hte component souls that once made it so expansive have now gone. Now Hell only exists for him, because he just can't admit he was wrong. But now he doesn't have anyone else to take it out on. He doesn't have any way to displace the frustration and guilt.
And all that time, Ihys will be waiting outside, waiting to take his brother's hand when he finally dares to hope.
...
Of course that doesn't leave a hell of a lot for heroes to do any more at that point, so that's one of those far off speculations that theologians chat about.
Why yes I am a big fan of Origen!
You are also full of win and happy things.
Plus, Sarenrae is pro-slavery in some places, anti-slavery in others. Which probably seems pretty Chaotic.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Plus, Sarenrae is pro-slavery in some places, anti-slavery in others. Which probably seems pretty Chaotic.
Some of Sarenae's FOLLOWERS are pro-slavery in some places.
I don't think anything on the Goddess has her as being pro-slavery.
Creative Director
|
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Plus, Sarenrae is pro-slavery in some places, anti-slavery in others. Which probably seems pretty Chaotic.Some of Sarenae's FOLLOWERS are pro-slavery in some places.
I don't think anything on the Goddess has her as being pro-slavery.
Correct.
One of the thigns we're exploring in Qadira and with some bleedover into Taldor and Osirion is what happens when a neutral good church (Sarenrae) has a sort of schism in its church, where one group continues to worship the goddess in the way she has traditionally been worshiped, while another group drifts away from her teachings into increasingly warlike behavior. It's all building toward something... I'd love to some day do an adventure path about the schism in Sarenrae's church and the conflict between Taldor and Qadira reaching a breaking point, with ALL of the PCs playing worshipers of Sarenrae who would then have to repair the church and deal with a group of zealots who have drifted so far away from the Dawnflower's teachings that they're essentially a totally new faith or philosophy (Likely with all of their clerics losing access to their spells and having to start worshiping some new deity... maybe Asmodeus or Szuriel!).
Plus, Sarenrae is pro-slavery in some places, anti-slavery in others. Which probably seems pretty Chaotic.Some of Sarenae's FOLLOWERS are pro-slavery in some places.
I don't think anything on the Goddess has her as being pro-slavery.
Correct.
One of the thigns we're exploring in Qadira and with some bleedover into Taldor and Osirion is what happens when a neutral good church (Sarenrae) has a sort of schism in its church, where one group continues to worship the goddess in the way she has traditionally been worshiped, while another group drifts away from her teachings into increasingly warlike behavior. It's all building toward something... I'd love to some day do an adventure path about the schism in Sarenrae's church and the conflict between Taldor and Qadira reaching a breaking point, with ALL of the PCs playing worshipers of Sarenrae who would then have to repair the church and deal with a group of zealots who have drifted so far away from the Dawnflower's teachings that they're essentially a totally new faith or philosophy (Likely with all of their clerics losing access to their spells and having to start worshiping some new deity... maybe Asmodeus or Szuriel!).
That would be pretty awesome. I bet we'd see Shamira with a finger in that pot too--they may not be lustful, but she seems to have a "thing" for fallen Sarenrites.
|
Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere
|
This all sounds too awesome :D And yes, I have wondered too why Sarenrae is banned in Taldor, I just thought that Taldor is so narrow-minded that every Sarenrite (that's not a word) is a Qadiran spy.
I quess I was right, in part at least. But that AP idea sounds bueno! Religious schisms are always so entertaining and full of great roleplaying material! I'm actually kind of surprised that this theme hasn't really rise up in AP:s already, at least in those that I know anything about.
Did Jacobs forget about Shamira? She seems just as good a fit as Szuriel as the patron of fallen Sarenrites for this potential campaign.
|
I'd love to some day do an adventure path about the schism in Sarenrae's church and the conflict between Taldor and Qadira reaching a breaking point, with ALL of the PCs playing worshipers of Sarenrae who would then have to repair the church and deal with a group of zealots who have drifted so far away from the Dawnflower's teachings that they're essentially a totally new faith or philosophy (Likely with all of their clerics losing access to their spells and having to start worshiping some new deity... maybe Asmodeus or Szuriel!).
While it sounds cool, this would really need to be one of those cases that the AP would need to change the world, not simply return it to the SQ aftrwards. Some things that would need to change would be Taldor's view on the church of Sarenrae afterwards, but also if it came to light that Asmodeus was besically playing both Taldor's and Cheliax's ruling family the whole time, well Cheliax might need to drasticly change as well. These are just two obvious ones, but it would start stretching belief if these and a few other things remain the same afterwards. :)
|
Creative Director
|
I'd love to some day do an adventure path about the schism in Sarenrae's church and the conflict between Taldor and Qadira reaching a breaking point, with ALL of the PCs playing worshipers of Sarenrae who would then have to repair the church and deal with a group of zealots who have drifted so far away from the Dawnflower's teachings that they're essentially a totally new faith or philosophy (Likely with all of their clerics losing access to their spells and having to start worshiping some new deity... maybe Asmodeus or Szuriel!).While it sounds cool, this would really need to be one of those cases that the AP would need to change the world, not simply return it to the SQ aftrwards. Some things that would need to change would be Taldor's view on the church of Sarenrae afterwards, but also if it came to light that Asmodeus was besically playing both Taldor's and Cheliax's ruling family the whole time, well Cheliax might need to drasticly change as well. These are just two obvious ones, but it would start stretching belief if these and a few other things remain the same afterwards. :)
We're not afraid of Adventure Paths that change the world. An adventure path like this would and could very well result in the final death blow to the empire of Taldor, for example.
We've done APs that change the world before, such as Jade Regent, Skull & Shackles, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Kingmaker... well, actually, ALL of them result in changes to the assumed "baseline" as laid out in the Inner Sea World Guide. Some more than others.
So... "changing the world" is not only possible, but more or less unavoidable and required for ANY Adventure Path.
|
|
Yes and no. I get what your saying, but it strikes me as a little beyond those. Don't get me wrong, I'm not tryng to tell you your job, just a point of concern, :)
To be completly honest, I would hope that it might give Taldor, a least the Faction, a little bit more purpose and of a place rather than the "final death blow".
We're not afraid of Adventure Paths that change the world. An adventure path like this would and could very well result in the final death blow to the empire of Taldor, for example.We've done APs that change the world before, such as Jade Regent, Skull & Shackles, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Kingmaker... well, actually, ALL of them result in changes to the assumed "baseline" as laid out in the Inner Sea World Guide. Some more than others.
So... "changing the world" is not only possible, but more or less unavoidable and required for ANY Adventure Path.
Agreed. In 'our' Golarion it started with the baseline information provided in the world guide, and things have changed as the various campaign groups have progressed through their respective APs.
Example: Ancestors of Her Infernal Majestrix are vassels in a new kingdom that stretches from the river kingdoms into Iobaria, including a LG cleric of Aroden who was revived from petrification to a world where his god is dead, and his own descendants have sold the homeland to the god of tyranny.
In the former capital, the children of Westcrown have gained unexpected allies. A man trained the Swordpact brings documents that may prove key to the city's salvation, while warriors from Minkai, Varisia, the Linnorn Kingdoms, and even the Crown of the World have pledged their lives to a humble glassblower. A gift, they say, from her sister.
Also, please please make your schism AP. I squee with delight at exploring Byzantium and the Caliphate.
|
Creative Director
|
Yes and no. I get what your saying, but it strikes me as a little beyond those. Don't get me wrong, I'm not tryng to tell you your job, just a point of concern, :)
To be completly honest, I would hope that it might give Taldor, a least the Faction, a little bit more purpose and of a place rather than the "final death blow".
What happens to the Taldor faction is something that's going to be contained in the Pathfinder Society organized play program. It's not going to be involved with the Adventure Path.
In the game I'm running, set on a frontier subcontinent of Golarion, the pc cleric of Sarenrae is gradually developing a temple, exiles of the cult of the Dawnflower have been sent to him for refuge from the mainland, some bearing scars of torture. In this way he is learning of the politics of his religion. Later, the brother of another pc, a LE Taldor noble with designs to claim the land shows up with his retinue of soldiers. The Taldor noble considers worshipers of Sarenrae to be no better than terrorists due to their interference, so he blocks the temple construction and begins an investigation of the acolytes. This got the pc involved in defending the radical Dawnflower movement before he really had any understanding of their motives.
What happens to the Taldor faction is something that's going to be contained in the Pathfinder Society organized play program. It's not going to be involved with the Adventure Path.Yes and no. I get what your saying, but it strikes me as a little beyond those. Don't get me wrong, I'm not tryng to tell you your job, just a point of concern, :)
To be completly honest, I would hope that it might give Taldor, a least the Faction, a little bit more purpose and of a place rather than the "final death blow".
Nice!!!
|
I'd love to some day do an adventure path about the schism in Sarenrae's church and the conflict between Taldor and Qadira reaching a breaking point, with ALL of the PCs playing worshipers of Sarenrae who would then have to repair the church and deal with a group of zealots who have drifted so far away from the Dawnflower's teachings that they're essentially a totally new faith or philosophy (Likely with all of their clerics losing access to their spells and having to start worshiping some new deity... maybe Asmodeus or Szuriel!).While it sounds cool, this would really need to be one of those cases that the AP would need to change the world, not simply return it to the SQ aftrwards. Some things that would need to change would be Taldor's view on the church of Sarenrae afterwards, but also if it came to light that Asmodeus was besically playing both Taldor's and Cheliax's ruling family the whole time, well Cheliax might need to drasticly change as well. These are just two obvious ones, but it would start stretching belief if these and a few other things remain the same afterwards. :)We're not afraid of Adventure Paths that change the world. An adventure path like this would and could very well result in the final death blow to the empire of Taldor, for example.
We've done APs that change the world before, such as Jade Regent, Skull & Shackles, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Kingmaker... well, actually, ALL of them result in changes to the assumed "baseline" as laid out in the Inner Sea World Guide. Some more than others.
So... "changing the world" is not only possible, but more or less unavoidable and required for ANY Adventure Path.
Actually, I'd like to see an adventure path where the players are Taldan agents who are ordered to uncover a plot by a faction of the Cult of the Dawnflower that is designed trigger a war between Taldor and Qadira. Perhaps the players might be called upon to pose as Sarenrae's followers to infiltrate the Cult. The players' primary mission would be to prevent the war by any means necessary and their secondary mission would be to uncover enough intelligence to round up all the underground communities of Sarenrae worshipers in Taldor.
|
What happens to the Taldor faction is something that's going to be contained in the Pathfinder Society organized play program. It's not going to be involved with the Adventure Path.Yes and no. I get what your saying, but it strikes me as a little beyond those. Don't get me wrong, I'm not tryng to tell you your job, just a point of concern, :)
To be completly honest, I would hope that it might give Taldor, a least the Faction, a little bit more purpose and of a place rather than the "final death blow".
Is that something that will be collected and released? Or will people with busy schedules like mine that can't make the time to do Organized play miss out on the story?
|
Creative Director
|
Is that something that will be collected and released? Or will people with busy schedules like mine that can't make the time to do Organized play miss out on the story?What happens to the Taldor faction is something that's going to be contained in the Pathfinder Society organized play program. It's not going to be involved with the Adventure Path.Yes and no. I get what your saying, but it strikes me as a little beyond those. Don't get me wrong, I'm not tryng to tell you your job, just a point of concern, :)
To be completly honest, I would hope that it might give Taldor, a least the Faction, a little bit more purpose and of a place rather than the "final death blow".
We've not yet done any "collecting and releasing" of much PFS material. Doesn't mean we won't ever... but so far, that's not a big part of what we do with organized play.
|
Creative Director
|
*necro*
So what's the legal status of the church of Sarenrae nowadays?
Taldor, Echoes of Glory is older than Faiths of Purity, but the latter book doesn't mention anything about the prohibition. It does however list Taldor as one of the major centers of worship for Sarenrae.
So what's going on?
Just because something's not legal doesn't mean there's a lot of folks involved.
AKA: The government in Taldor doesn't want Sarenrae worship in Taldor, but it's still there and it's a growing presence.
Interesting thread, but some things about this bug me.
Asmodeus acts in a vacuum?
What's going on has to be pretty obvious to the other gods. Asmodeus has a pretty direct line to the rulers of Cheliax. Now Taldor?
You would think if Asmodeus is sticking his fingers in Taldor, one of the other gods would mount an organized opposition. More than one actually.
And by that I mean more than a random collection of adventurers that just happens to be in the neighborhood. You'd expect high level clerics and other agents to be tasked with waging a covert war.
Who says there aren't?
That's the thing about Covert Wars: They're Covert.
|
|
Interesting thread, but some things about this bug me.
Asmodeus acts in a vacuum?
What's going on has to be pretty obvious to the other gods. Asmodeus has a pretty direct line to the rulers of Cheliax. Now Taldor?
You would think if Asmodeus is sticking his fingers in Taldor, one of the other gods would mount an organized opposition. More than one actually.
And by that I mean more than a random collection of adventurers that just happens to be in the neighborhood. You'd expect high level clerics and other agents to be tasked with waging a covert war.
Who says there aren't?
That's the thing about Covert Wars: They're Covert.
For example, the current (known) goals of the Taldan faction in PFS?
(awesomeness)
...at this point I need to figure out how to globally favorite all your posts. ^.^
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Re: changing the world, one thing I really like about how Paizo handles APs is that they allow APs with world-spanning consequences to their epic storylines, but they don't feel the need to incorporate the results of each AP into the canonical state of the world. That gives you the best of both worlds; there's no constant treadmill of keeping up to do if you want to play in the current version of Golarion in which the new Campaign Setting books make sense, but still your characters can totally turn over the world in APs.
I have yet to make it all the way through a single AP with a group I GM. If I ever did, and moved on to a second AP, I'd start over with new characters, and reset the world. To my view, each AP is a different campaign, and there's no need to have continuity of story from one campaign to the next, even if it's the same group of players.
Re: changing the world, one thing I really like about how Paizo handles APs is that they allow APs with world-spanning consequences to their epic storylines, but they don't feel the need to incorporate the results of each AP into the canonical state of the world. That gives you the best of both worlds; there's no constant treadmill of keeping up to do if you want to play in the current version of Golarion in which the new Campaign Setting books make sense, but still your characters can totally turn over the world in APs.
I have yet to make it all the way through a single AP with a group I GM. If I ever did, and moved on to a second AP, I'd start over with new characters, and reset the world. To my view, each AP is a different campaign, and there's no need to have continuity of story from one campaign to the next, even if it's the same group of players.
Agreed. SO hard.
|
I've come to think (in my Golarion) that Aroden's Church came in and kind of stamped out most of the "local" religions throughout the Inner Sea in favor of its new Azlanti-god.
Serenae, Desna, Shelyn, Zon-Kuthon, etc., all went under the boot of the Arodenites, and were generally suppressed or shunted to the corners of Avistan (Nidal, Varisia, Mendev, etc.)
Since Aroden's death, it's been something of a free-for-all, with the Ascended trying to take over Aroden's faithful, but with these older and competing religions also re-emerging. Banning Serenae's faith would only fit for the tottering Taldans trying to keep their position as the best heirs to Aroden's legacy.