Welcome to the boards! People might be jerks at you for your post, but try to ignore that. It's a defensive reaction, and you've kinda opened a big can of worms here :)
More to follow.
The Wildshape of 3.5 was widely considered one of the most broken aspects of the game, in many ways due to the way Polymorph was handled. One of the key aspects of PF was fixing polymorph, and with it wildshape. Plus, the way natural attacks are handled was changed too, which is a nice buff. I think before the first attack was always the primary one and the rest secondary, but now attacks are primary or secondary based on their type. Depending on the critter you turn into, you can get a lot of primary natural attacks, and those are pretty nice.
The druid's healing is still better than the arcane classes, their blasting is better than the cleric's blasting (I think at least), and they have a ton of spells that aren't restricted to weeds, wood, animals plants, or outside. They certainly have a lot of those spells, but they're still in the minority.
While the spell list isn't as strong as others, you still get a very nice bonus: every single spell you prepare is both the prepared spell and summon nature's ally. That's actually a pretty huge thing, and it's a pity it is so hidden away.
I've seen people still think the animal companion is stronger than the eidolon. I don't believe them, but really, the eidolon is the summoner's main class feature. I would certainly hope that it's better than the animal companion. The animal companion is only a small part of the druid's class.
Regarding archetypes...well, each of the terrain and shaman things are archetypes, so they don't just get two :) I do agree somewhat that the archetypes aren't the most interesting. UM took some nice steps towards this though with their archetypes that weren't focused on animals or terrain.
I think the serpent domain is in error though. Domains don't replace class abilities...
Wildshape is pretty different than the wizard's beast shape...It's much longer and it rolls all those spells into one, without using any of their spells up...
A lot of people still see druids as one of the best classes in the game though. You get an animal companion that's actually pretty good, full casting, and the highly useful wildshape. It's true that they aren't as strong as the 3.5 druid, but that's more an issue with just how strong the 3.5 druid was. :)
Hopefully people in this thread will be able to help you see the strong points of the class.
Druids with domains don't take the animal companion, and I rather think the Menhir Savant is a cool archetype. Powerful and with an interesting flavor.
Druid in PF is a slow starter, but by level 6 or so, a force to be reckoned with. It is still one of my favorite classes.
stuff
LOL,your writing style reminds me of a certain AM BARBARIAN...
But more on topic Druids are still strong as s$&!,and they have the best Spell List after Sorc/Wiz.In fact the Druid list might very possibly be the best in the game. Only Wildshape got nerfed and it was time that that happened.
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Druids who focus on casting may have a difficult time, but they're certainly not lacking utility. Wildshape-based Druids, however, can still easily outstrip other melee combatants, even without magical aid. Add in the massive buffs they can give themselves, and it becomes readily apparent that Druids deserve their reputation as a powerful class.
Heyh... You think Druid archetypes are boring? Look at the poor Rogue. Most (if not all) of its archetypes could be made into a feat or two.
But, seriously, I think druids are quite powerful in PF, maybe not as much as they were in 3.5, but that's a GOOD thing, as the old wild shape was way too good.
They are a fun, versatile class with lots of cool abilities and full-casting. I don't see them as weaker than Clerics, just different.
Trollolololol?
Reincarnate is a 4th level spell and 1/5th the cost of raise dead, so access to resurrection two levels early, and if there's a cleric the negative levels aren't a huge issue as Restoration is a 4th level spell as well.
Wild-shape only giving a +1 to hit and damage is less than epic, sure, but Druids get to mimic the wizard spell at 4th level as opposed to the wizard that gets it a level early with a huge duration. It's a nice buff that grants animal's abilities like scent, pounce and rake.
8th level wildshaping into a large tiger gives 5 attacks at + 8+str and 3 grapple attempts due to Grab ability. While fighter has BAB +8 too, she has to use iterative attacks.
They blast almost on par with Arcanists, heal adequately and can use wands, and spells like Call Lightning function indoors, and they gets lots of control spells like stone-call frost-fall, etc.
It's a very strong class with massive versatility, and a competent player can handle summoned creatures without too much trouble if they prepare for it.
I don't play PF, but I do play a druid, and played the same druid in 3.5 and Pathfinder, after converting to Pathfinder rules.
Pathfinder druids are weaker in two areas compared to 3.5, Wildshape and Blast spells, particularly ray type spells.
But even with those nerfs druids are still among the most powerful classes in the game, plus druids have unique abilities that make them one of the, if not the, most versatile class in the game. There is literally no role the druid cannot play given the opportunity to build and prepare for it. Tank, healer, blaster, striker, scout, skill monkey... they are all possible.
Right now, of my active characters, the only class I enjoy as much as the druid from a pure game and role play perspective is my witch. And I love my witch for many of the same reasons.
My druid is currently level 9. She is an archer druid and so has focused on archery feats, but doing so has given her the ability to make three attacks and fire four arrows per round, BEFORE being buffed by haste or using boots of speed. With "Cat's Grace" she gains a +2 to her attacks which in addition to her feat and item bonuses gives her a solid chance to hit her level appropriate targets.
Since using her bow does not use up her spells, she is able to contribute meaningfully to combat all day long while still bringing massive hurt when the need arises.
Although she is not a PFS build, there is nothing in her build that would not be allowed in PFS. I would not hesitate to play a character like her in Pathfinder Society.
Gorbacz, I speculated in 3.5 days that the most powerful possible four person party was:
druid
druid
druid
wizard
I agree with Adamantine Dragon
What exactly is it you want the Druid to get lol.
1. Its a Full 9th level Caster. Not only that it has a VERY strong list of spells. Some of the Best CC, and large Area spells in the game are on the druid list.
2. It has one of the best (if not the best)pets in the game. At low levels in completely dominates and at higher levels stays competative.
3. Wildshaping while nerfed is still really strong, and adds additional versatility with all the abilities you can gain (sent, darkvision, ect). The buffs give you stat adjust and new movement forms... like flight... at low levels... its still crazy good.
4. 3/4 BAB as a full caster.
5. D8 HP as a full caster.
6. Can wear Armor... as a full caster.
7. Can heal (almost as well as a cleric)
The closest comparable class is Summoner. Most call it out as being completely broken but lets compare.
1. Only gets 6th level spells, but has Summons (If it ignores #2)
2. Pets are on par (Summoner might have a slight edge)
3. No Wildshape
4. Same
5. Same
6. Same
7. No healing
So the closest class in versatilty... is a worse caster, cant have a pet out and use his best class ability, cant wildshape, and cant heal. Yet it is considered broken... Trust me. Druids are fine.
Dragon, my level 9 druid is still by far the most powerful character in our party, which includes a cleric, barbarian, rogue and sorcerer.
Dragon, my level 9 druid is still by far the most powerful character in our party, which includes a cleric, barbarian, rogue and sorcerer.
Yeah I am not surprised. Druids are solid as all get out. There really isn't anything they are BAD at. And they have solid strong niches if you want to go that route too. Great class imo.
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Your basic point is that a druid isn't as good a fighter as a fighter, isn't as good a summoner as a summoner, isn't as good a blaster as a wizard, and isn't as good a healer as a cleric.
Therefore he is useless.
Even if we accept your premise (many don't) it doesn't mean that the conclusion is correct.
One of the huge values of the Druid is versatility. Need that group blasted? Well, the druid can help the wizard do that. Need somebody to hold the line and do some damage? Well, the druid can help the fighter do that. Need to keep the group up when taking lots of damage and weird effects? Well, the druid can help the cleric do that. All while the Druids animal companion is off there beating the snot out of the bad guys minions or spell casters or whatever.
I play a druid in PFS. For PFS, it makes huge sense to maximize that flexiblity so she is both a decent melee character, has a decent animal companion, is a decent spell caster and can summon fairly tough monsters. In some adventures she is the tank, in some the healer, in some the spellcaster/controller, in some the dealer of damage. While she fills none of those rolls as well as a specialist she fills ANY of those roles quite adequately with just a change of memorized spells.
In a regular campaign the druid probably specializes a little more depending on the group. But even specialized she still has a fair bit of versatility. And if she REALLY specializes she'll likely be giving the character that she is trying to replace a REALLY good run for their money (arguably beating the fighter or wizard or summoner at their own game)
My level 9 archer druid is deliberately designed to be as versatile as possible. Here is the bottom line on her usefulness to the party:
1. She is not as good at dealing melee damage as the barbarian. But she's almost as good and better than anyone else in the party. Plus she (and her AC and summoned creatures) can deal with the mooks and minions while the barbarian ties up the biggest threat.
2. She is not as good at blasting as the sorcerer. But she's almost as good and better than anyone else in the party. Plus she has invested heavily in UMD and makes liberal use of wands and scrolls to increase her spellcasting beyond just druid spells.
3. She is not as good at tanking as the cleric or the barbarian, but she's almost as good, and by buffing her AC she can tank long enough to deal with most threats if the melee situation requires multiple tanks. Plus, by engaging in melee she provides the party rogue with more opportunities for gaining sneak attack, and since sneak attack is the rogue's main threat, that's a big, big deal.
4. She is not as good at healing as the cleric, but she's almost as good, and that means if the CLERIC goes down, she can get him back up and restore our healing needs for the rest of the fight. (Although we don't really do that much healing in combat, she is still CAPABLE of it.)
5. She is by far the best battlefield or crowd control caster in the party. When the situation calls for it she can isolate and focus the party's attention on key threats while holding off mooks and minions for several rounds.
6. She is not as good a skill-monkey as the rogue, but she's almost as good, plus she has the ability to wildshape into forms that provide scouting and maneuverability options that even the rogue finds difficult to accomplish. Other than dealing with magical traps, there is very little the rogue can do that my druid can't accomplish nearly as well as, or sometimes even better than, the rogue.
7. She is by far the best ranged combatant in the party. As a 3/4 BAB archer with specific archery boosting spells (such as "cat's grace") she provides solid, steady ranged damage, allowing her to stay out of melee range while she either targets key enemies or else decides it is time to become a blaster, crowd controller or healer.
I could go on.
Frankly it is hard to imagine a more powerful character. She is almost as good as every other party member in their PRIMARY ROLE and she is the best by far at some of the most important things the party has to do.
What's not to like about that? Sure she was EVEN BETTER in 3.5, but frankly I sometimes just got embarrassed by her sheer awesomeness in 3.5.
Build one of Trentmonks aspect of the beast Melee druids then tell me their underpowered. I'm running one in rise of the runelords in a party with 3 other full melee chars and my tiger and I put them to shame. Plus the druid has a lot of versatility if your clever with how you use their spells and abilities.
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What's not to like about that? Sure she was EVEN BETTER in 3.5, but frankly I sometimes just got embarrassed by her sheer awesomeness in 3.5.
It sounds like you're almost embarrassed by her sheer awesomeness in Pathfinder :-).
I'm on the border of being embarrassed by my Lion Shaman druid in PFS. I quite deliberately under play her much of the time so as to not totally dominate play. Its nice to have an augmented summons of D3+1 young tigers in the pocket in case things go south :-)
paul, yeah, my druid is a lion shaman too (although flavored as a tiger shaman). Since I have developed her as an archer, I haven't got any of the myriad feats that would make her an even better summoner, but she's still a pretty dang good summoner. Summoning big cats as a standard action, which can then pounce on the enemy is pure awesomeness all by itself...
Yeah, druids rock. I suppose at the very highest levels clerics and wizards have slightly better cosmic reality altering spells, but man is she fun to play at level nine...
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The druid only loses his Dex after they gain the abaility to change into the larger stuff. And by that point you should have anough money saved up that you could afford the Wild enchantment for your armor so you do not lose your armor bonus when wild shaping. Then you gain the natural armor bonus on top of that.
Druid's AC is very Low in wildshape because he lose all items wearing
In PF, wildshape's goods get Nerf but wildshape's bads have no fix
this let wildshape like a rage---wastes standard action, gain str,lose dex lose all AC from armors, +2 natural armor bound ( more NAB more dex lose and size bound lose)
and some special attack.
From what it seems your dislike on the druid class is the fact that it does not fill a role. It is not THE tank or THE damage caster but it is still all of those things rolled into one and can still fill their role almost as good if not better than they can while keeping the versitility to jump from one thing to another and that is what makes it one of the most fun to play as well.
Druids with domains don't take the animal companion, and I rather think the Menhir Savant is a cool archetype. Powerful and with an interesting flavor.
I wish the Menhir Savant didn't lose Wild Empathy, since it'd otherwise be perfect for my Changeling Druid.
Not sure what your problem with the Druid is Dnlas.
If you don't like them, don't play them! Simples.
I played a pathfinder druid in one particularly difficult campaign from lvl 1 to 20 and was the only character that did not die at all. And this was with only the core rule book. Not because he was the best at any one thing but more because of he was almost as good as the best in almost all aspects.
Druids are not the easiest character to play because of the variety. To get the most out of them, even after Paizo "fixed" them, requires an understanding of their role as a secondary Tank, Dps, Caster and Healer all rolled into one.
They are still awesome IMHO.
You used Monk as a good "dpr class". Um... no. The rest your argument is moot.
dnlas,
my level 9 druid does not have the wild enchantment on her armor. Instead she has the party barbarian carry her +1 barding. When she plans on entering melee she will wildshape and then the barbarian will help her put the barding on. She will also usually buff her AC with spells that she and the party cleric cast. Given time she will also buff her HP with constitution boosts. Her AC also wears barding.
You make the assertion that "versatility means you can do everything". I don't agree with that statement on the face of it. Versatility means you can do a lot of things well, not that you can do everything nor that you do the things you do better than anyone else.
When my level 9 druid is in melee that is almost always a situation where we have scouted ahead, recognized a threat, determined that melee is the best way to address the threat and have prepared and buffed the party. That's primarily because my low strength, low constitution druid is not designed for quick wildshaping into melee. But in those situations where we do plan for a large melee encounter and she can prepare and buff, she is a competent melee combatant.
While she cannot match the barbarian in damage, nor can she match the cleric in AC, she matches the barbarian in AC and matches the cleric in damage. Combined with her AC she provides additional flanking opportunities which is essentially a +2 buff to attack rolls in the fight. She and her AC typically engage the same target and use pounce and grapple liberally, especially against spellcasters.
It is true that in melee my druid does not do as much damage as the barbarian, and she is easier to hit than the cleric, but that does not mean she does not contribute significantly to the battle. We employ tactics that are designed to make the entire party more effective in melee, including focusing our attacks on the most dangerous opponent, grappling spellcasters, disrupting ranged attacks and whatever else comes to mind as being effective during the fight.
The idea that if the druid does not do as much damage as the barbarian then the druid is not a useful melee combatant is, in my opinion, short sighted and simplistic. It's like saying that the infantry is useless because you have a tank.
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Druids didn't NEED fancy new toys coming into Pathfinder. They already had everything they needed to be awesome. They received a powering-down because they could literally do everything better than anyone else in 3.5. They are still very strong, right now, without a single change needing to be made to them.
Pick an aspect, focus on it, and use the other abilities when you need to. You don't need to be the best or even second best at all of your tasks if you can do/help out with all of them.
Really, this whole thread is people telling you that you're wrong. What exactly do you want?
I read this far:
I guess I know why Druids is so weak in PF
..and then quit.
dnlas, hate to break it to you, but druids are arguably the most powerful class in Pathfinder.