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FAQ say Vital Strike cant not use while charge because charge is Full-Round Action.

Rhino Charge can charge by ready, ready is standard action.

So can I use Vital Strike when use Rhino Charge?

what's the "Rank" mean?

Good at one on one? Useful in team fight ? Or so special among classes?

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For one on one Caster always the winner in high Level

For team fight, most of full bab class,summoner and Monk do the great dps in teamfight

class has cleric spell list are useful in teamfight for Healing and buffing and remove debuff and some control spell to support teamfight

class has Wizard spell list has great AOE dmg, AOE control,BUFF, and anything no heal spells

Bard has the unique Performance which give buff to teammate and give extra save dice to teammate that both Wizard and cleric can't do the same thing.

2. Druid is a full caster that's better than most of class

In this point, I have to say two things
(1) Full caster doesn't mean having a good spell in list
(2) Full caster should compare to Full caster, or the result would not be so correct.

About (2) here is a easy example

Adept is a half-caster that's better than paladin, ranger and all no-spell class , so Adept's spell is good. or Adept's heal is better than ranger.

when it talk about spell list, full-caster should compare to full-caster
; half-caster should compare to half-caster and so is 1/4 caster
As a half caster why should I chose Adept not Bard? Because Adept's spell is better than ranger?

SO we compare Druid to Cleric not Adept, paladin or ranger.
when compare to cleric ,many druid's spells, no matter buff or debuff, are same as cleric but limit at, animal plant and natural weapon.

Someone say druid has blast dmg spell, BUT cleric has blast dmg spell, too (Flame Strike).

I don't think cleric is a spell-dmg dealer even though he has Flame Strike. And so,I don't think druid is a spell-dmg dealer.

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Versatility is not a class feature, AND NO CLASS HAS THE REAL Versatility.

Because all your Ability Score Point, Your Feat and Your spell slot is limit. You can do only one thing at one time and for the team you need to do the best.

Like a ball game, you do anything 70% well and you have no place in the field. even a alternate player should perfect one thing 90% well not all thing 70%.

FOR DRUID, even druid use all resources he has to perfect one thing( up str, buy wild armor, chose combat feat. ) He can do only 70~80% in melee
At the same time, his can do only 70% cleric could ( low wis, spell list is worse then cleric's, use some spell slot to cast buff )

IF the druid use all resources to perfect his healing-ability. His melee would be very bad. and he can do only 75% cleric can do( spell list is still bad )

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Arguing about balance would never end up

I know druid still keep some feature in PF
And I am glad to see so much people Love druid and find the interesting
things to play druid.

And I know, all of you play a druid not because he/she is powerful but his/her style, his/her fantasy and his/her class Description.

BUT it not change the fact that druid get Nerf in PF when all of other class get buff.

EVEN in 3.5 Druid is not a overpower class that Wizard and Cleric are

I just don't know why paizo Nerf druid only and NOT FIX druid's weakness

For balance? for interesting?

DO all of you who love druid think druid is very nice now and should never change in PF?

Haven't you though why Druid get Nerf when Barbarian gain rage power, bard gain Versatile performance,Cleric gain Channel Energy, Fighter gain Weapon and Armor Training, Monk gain Ki, Paladin gain new Smite Evil and lay on hand, Rogue gain Rogue talent, Sorcerer gain Bloodline power,and Wizard gain Arcane School power.

Don't you want druid be more interesting,too?

Are my suggestions on the top would mad druid too powerful?
If Yes. any suggestions to fix or add ?

2. Druid is a full caster that's better than most of class

In this point, I have to say two things
(1) Full caster doesn't mean having a good spell in list
(2) Full caster should compare to Full caster, or the result would not be so correct.

About (2) here is a easy example

Adept is a half-caster that's better than paladin, ranger and all no-spell class , so Adept's spell is good. or Adept's heal is better than ranger.

when it talk about spell list, full-caster should compare to full-caster
; half-caster should compare to half-caster and so is 1/4 caster
As a half caster why should I chose Adept not Bard? Because Adept's spell is better than ranger?

SO we compare Druid to Cleric not Adept, paladin or ranger.
when compare to cleric ,many druid's spells, no matter buff or debuff, are same as cleric but limit at, animal plant and natural weapon.

Someone say druid has blast dmg spell, BUT cleric has blast dmg spell, too (Flame Strike).

I don't think cleric is a spell-dmg dealer even though he has Flame Strike. And so,I don't think druid is a spell-dmg dealer.

==================================================================

Versatility is not a class feature, AND NO CLASS HAS THE REAL Versatility.

Because all your Ability Score Point, Your Feat and Your spell slot is limit. You can do only one thing at one time and for the team you need to do the best.

Like a ball game, you do anything 70% well and you have no place in the field. even a alternate player should perfect one thing 90% well not all thing 70%.

FOR DRUID, even druid use all resources he has to perfect one thing( up str, buy wild armor, chose combat feat. ) He can do only 70~80% in melee
At the same time, his can do only 70% cleric could ( low wis, spell list is worse then cleric's, use some spell slot to cast buff )

IF the druid use all resources to perfect his healing-ability. His melee would be very bad. and he can do only 75% cleric can do( spell list is still bad )

======================================================================
======================================================================
Arguing about balance would never end up

I know druid still keep some feature in PF
And I am glad to see so much people Love druid and find the interesting
things to play druid.

And I know, all of you play a druid not because he/she is powerful but his/her style, his/her fantasy and his/her class Description.

BUT it not change the fact that druid get Nerf in PF when all of other class get buff.

EVEN in 3.5 Druid is not a overpower class that Wizard and Cleric are

I just don't know why paizo Nerf druid only and NOT FIX druid's weakness

For balance? for interesting?

DO all of you who love druid think druid is very nice now and should never change in PF?

Haven't you though why Druid get Nerf when Barbarian gain rage power, bard gain Versatile performance,Cleric gain Channel Energy, Fighter gain Weapon and Armor Training, Monk gain Ki, Paladin gain new Smite Evil and lay on hand, Rogue gain Rogue talent, Sorcerer gain Bloodline power,and Wizard gain Arcane School power.

Don't you want druid be more interesting,too?
Don't you want to talk to paizo that druid need to change?

Are my suggestions on the top would mad druid too powerful?
If Yes. any suggestions to fix or add ?

Versatility means you can do everything you have

you can't get everything A, but should get everything B at least

So that talk about druid's Versatility.

1.He can melee with wildshape:

Druid's AC is low while wildshape, he can use Wild enchantment to make up
this.

The question is WHY the class must Rely on a enchantment which is very Expensive (16000+, other class only use 1000+ to gain the same effect. regardless druid cant wearing metal armor )

Does any other class's main class feature need to cast so much money to gain the same effect corresponding to another class?

In 3.5 druid's AC is OK because animal has the same AC, so when he get Wild enchantment his AC would higher than other class's.

That's why wild enchantment is so expensive in 3.5

With NERF wildshape, same price in PF, just let druid's AC same as other class (or +2....if you regardless 15000+ gp less) without this enchantment, your druid is so squishy that even Rogue wearing Hide shirt his AC is higher than you(same dex)

Don't forget that you wast a standard action to get this buff.

So I don't think druid's tankly can get B, if Rogue get C and wizard get E(no wast a standard action to get a buff) then druid just D with no wild enchantment. with wild enchantment, druid's tankly can get...D~C because other class can use 15000+ gp to get better AC

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Let's talk about dmg.

druid's dmg is really high in low level in fact.
In lv4, druid can attack three times with Natural weapons
That's why some people think druid is good at dmg

but when it comes to lv6 lv8 lv11 and more, other class get higher dpr and more attack times but druid has no change.

For example, In lv9 most class get the second attack with -5ab and druid still has three attacks with no penalty, sounds good.

Druid's natural weapons just work like one-hand weapon, it means one druid's attack is more lower than two-hand weappon(dice, str bound PA)
and two-weapon has one more attack but has AB penalty, so it's hard to compare.

Monk's Unarmed Strike is also work like one-hand weapon, Flurry of Blows
give Monk four or five attacks(with ki) that more than druid and deal more dmg for each hit.

If Monk get A in dpr then druid should get B in dpr
when the level is higher, Monk get more dmg/hit and more attack, and druid's dmg/hit and attacks has no change, so druid get C or less in more higher level

So we know
level 1~3 unrank
level 4~6 A
level 7~10 B
level 11~more C~less

regardless the problem to bypass DR,bound feat and wast one turn to wildshape. I guss this dmg is OK
(Although my Favorite is snake, but that's my chose not druid's fault:D )

According above, druid has the OK dmg with wildshape as a Versatility class but his AC is so poor.

You can't just dpr without being attacked, SO Druid is not a Qualified Versatility class in melee.

next post talk about spell list

I know Power is not the only things in D&D. I don't like druid in 4E even they are strong then other weak class.
And I guess give druid some buff had no Harm.

I know paizo try to make things fun. But why not druid?
I feel not love from paizo designing the new druid in PF
Just no change and Nerf wildshape.
Compare to other class, it mad me sad.

The Wildshape of 3.5 was widely considered one of the most broken aspects of the game, in many ways due to the way Polymorph was handled. One of the key aspects of PF was fixing polymorph, and with it wildshape. Plus, the way natural attacks are handled was changed too, which is a nice buff. I think before the first attack was always the primary one and the rest secondary, but now attacks are primary or secondary based on their type. Depending on the critter you turn into, you can get a lot of primary natural attacks, and those are pretty nice.

In 3.5 wildshape is a broken aspects because it can get free str con dex by one action. But even in 3.5 druid is not a op class in melee.

Why? because str30 for druid means +10ab/+10dmg, but for two-handed weapon character +10dmg is easy to achieve---> str22 with +1 weapon ( and overcome with PA)

Druid's ab is higher, but what about give the divine favor to other class?

Once the levels up, Druid's str is still 30 but other character's str and magic weapon can grow up

Druid's AC is very Low in wildshape because he lose all items wearing
In addition, nature weapons have no way to overcome DR in 3.5
It's let druid have low dpr in high level
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In PF, wildshape's goods get Nerf but wildshape's bads have no fix
this let wildshape like a rage---wast standard action, gain str,lose dex lose all AC from armors, +2 natural armor bound ( more NAB more dex lose and size bound lose)
and some special attack.

And Now, Nature weapon is not the feature that druid only has
Ranger barbarian and summoner can use nature weapon, too
Other class with high cha can also chose Eldritch Heritage feat to gain nature weapon.

(I had read a post in Enworld, someone want to be a beast fighter, he only consider summoner and barbarian, one reply below mention Alchemist but no one mention Druid. why not druid?)
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The druid's healing is still better than the arcane classes, their blasting is better than the cleric's blasting (I think at least), and they have a ton of spells that aren't restricted to weeds, wood, animals plants, or outside. They certainly have a lot of those spells, but they're still in the minority.

While the spell list isn't as strong as others, you still get a very nice bonus: every single spell you prepare is both the prepared spell and summon nature's ally. That's actually a pretty huge thing, and it's a pity it is so hidden away.

I agree, summon nature's allys are only spells that better than cleric's and Wizard's

But the question is, why I chose druid not cleric to be a healer?
Cleric can AOE heal even without spells, and cleric has better spell list than druid to help teammate.
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I've seen people still think the animal companion is stronger than the eidolon. I don't believe them, but really, the eidolon is the summoner's main class feature. I would certainly hope that it's better than the animal companion. The animal companion is only a small part of the druid's class.

My only question is WHAT the main class feature that druid has?

Wildshape? Nerf, just nerf, no fix
spell list? Worse than cleric
animal companion? Worse than summoner

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Regarding archetypes...well, each of the terrain and shaman things are archetypes, so they don't just get two :) I do agree somewhat that the archetypes aren't the most interesting. UM took some nice steps towards this though with their archetypes that weren't focused on animals or terrain.

I think the serpent domain is in error though. Domains don't replace class abilities...

Wildshape is pretty different than the wizard's beast shape...It's much longer and it rolls all those spells into one, without using any of their spells up...

A lot of people still see druids as one of the best classes in the game though. You...

I am glad to hear this. In China and Taiwan lots of people love druid, too

When PF came, more and more interesting classes appear. They all more interesting and buff than 3.5.

What do the druid change in PF? Get buff? More interesting?We discussed and guessed happily. And then, we all knew the answer....

I guess I know why Druids is so weak in PF

1. NO class with 3/4 bab doing better in melee than class with full Bab. Even they use all things they have to reach that

SO WILDSHAPE GET A GREAT NERF AND NEVER GET BUFF

2. Druid's Healing cant do better than cleric
3. Druid's dmg spell cant do better than arcane class
4. Druid's power is from Nature so their spell should Only work in the outside with weeds and Wood, and only work on animals or plants

For those reason above Druid get the worst spell list in full caster

still, druid is the full caster...but cleric is always the better chose if there were no weed, even with weeds, cleric is still the better healer, buffer and debuff remover.

5. druid's "PET" is powerful in low level
So we get summoner, and Leadership still work well

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Druid's Archetype is the most boring things in PF
There are only two druid archetype in APG, terrain druid and shaman
In UC, nothing new
In UM, something new finally......wait,why I get NERF in 9~12 level If I chose Serpent Domain? This is my first time seeing a domain that can Nerf class feature.

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when druid get nerf in many things, he/she still have something strong

Summon nature's ally is strong with in shaman Archetype

I suggest nerfing Summon nature's ally. it's too strong and I don't like lots aminals on my battlefield if Im DM, it let me Headache.

In addtion, remove animal companion in some Archetype.In contrast, give druid better spell list or better melee ability

druid's spell list should differ form cleric's but not just limit

Magic Weapon can work on all weapon teammate wearing(including Monk)But Magic Fang only work on druid in wildshape(WEAK, worse in melee) or animal companion(Lower bab)

Calm Emotions can work on anything with mind, good for teamwork
Calm Animal can work on animal only , work nothing for teamwork

hold person/animal :Same, humanoid is more common than animal

....etc

Those spell should be modified, maybe no limit maybe other effect, maybe just give druid more useful and powerful spells that Cleric and Wizard haven't or have similar spells

why not? DRUID IS A FULL CASTER, TOO

about the wildshape Archetype , maybe work like Totem Transformation in Shaman Archetype but only work when wildshape add addition bonuses when the level increase. Natural armor bonus is good idea, wildshape let druid more weak because he/she lose armor and shell he/she wearing, and get only +2 Natural armor bonus.

otherwise remove wildshape and get more stronger one. In fact, its bad thing that one core class's core class ability is from Wizard's spell list (and a useless one for Wizard)

This shaping should strong and be more featured when class level up.
This shaping isn't wildshape ,so some feat work on wildshape do not work on this shaping, so you cant cast spell even you have Natural Spell Feat in those form ,as balance.
Druid still can cast spell, but must in humanoid form

If druid lose animal companion and spell list still worse than cleric
then druid should more good at melee than cleric even cleric cast Divine Favor spell. not better than fighter but cleric in melee.
I guess this is fair

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cleric is a core class, lots player love this class
Druid is a core class, lots player love this class,too even the "lots" just a small group

I like PF, because it's more interesting than 3E
But my favor class get BIG NERF and more boring in PF
I have wait druid get buff since PF came and I'm tried now...

thanks for reading