I'm currently playing on a Level 8 party with no full spellcasters. So, no Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Oracle or Witch. We wanted a more challenging style of play with lots of quick-thinking, mundane item use and some helpful magic in the sack.
We started at Level 5 and we're:
-Male Human Rogue: two-weapon fighting and Barney Stinson's attitude / CG / Cayden Cailean.
-Female Elf Bard: archery and bardic awesomeness / CG / Desna
-Male Dwarf Fighter: mace and shield bull rush expert and clever bastard / NG / Torag
-Male Half-elf Monk: unarmed and common sense powers / LG / Irori
-Female Aasimar Paladin: falchion castigator and serious business powers / LG / Iomedae.
BTW, the Bard is going to take some levels in Arcane Archer, gotta love that Prestige Class in PF.
We roam the Isle of Kortos and are in good terms with Absalom.
My question is, what items & spells would be the best to make this party survive? What other ideas do you recommend us? What do you think would be a really difficult encounter for us in general? Which tricks could we use as a party? We have disused this as a party, but I thought that asking here would be interesting.
Thanks in advance.
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I'm currently playing on a Level 8 party with no full spellcasters. So, no Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Oracle or Witch. We wanted a more challenging style of play with lots of quick-thinking, mundane item use and some helpful magic in the sack.
We started at Level 5 and we're:
-Male Human Rogue: two-weapon fighting and Barney Stinson's attitude / CG / Cayden Cailean.
-Female Elf Bard: archery and bardic awesomeness / CG / Desna
-Male Dwarf Fighter: mace and shield bull rush expert and clever bastard / NG / Torag
-Male Half-elf Monk: unarmed and common sense powers / LG / Irori
-Female Aasimar Paladin: falchion castigator and serious business powers / LG / Iomedae.BTW, the Bard is going to take some levels in Arcane Archer, gotta love that Prestige Class in PF.
We roam the Isle of Kortos and are in good terms with Absalom.
My question is, what items & spells would be the best to make this party survive? What other ideas do you recommend us? What do you think would be a really difficult encounter for us in general? Which tricks could we use as a party? We have disused this as a party, but I thought that asking here would be interesting.
Thanks in advance.
Learn to appreciate item creation feats, and consumables. Grabbing up wands of lesser restoration (750 gp) and cure light wounds (750 gp) can get your paladin and bard healing most ailments. Sadly you have a monk instead of a Ranger, but in general just use good teamwork, have the casters (bard and paladin) grab some item creation feats, and you guys should have a pretty well-rounded party.
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Yeah, your Bard is really going to shine in this group - I'd suggest everybody pooling resources to get scrolls & wands for your Bard. This way, you've got options when you need them. The above-mentioned wands will be literal life-savers. Scrolls of situationally useful things like Detect Secret Doors, Comprehend Languages, Ghostbane Dirge, Delay Poison, Versatile Weapon, Remove Curse and so on. Scrolls are everybody's friend.
Battlefield control will rely much more on quick thinking and creative use of the environment than traditional approaches like the Wall spells. Having said that, this can be quite a lot of fun:
In a tavern? Flip tables - hey look! Cover, difficult terrain - make archers sad at you, and melee classes unable to charge. Fight a war of attrition.
In town? Well, the fruit vendors aren't going to be happy. But you will!
In a dungeon? Dungeons have corners! Make them come to you - use the stone walls etc. to your advantage - set up ambushes. With ambushes, it really is better to give than receive!
Basically, your play style might shift more toward a "Jagged Alliance" or "X-Com" type of turn-based combat - this can take a little longer, but is quite fun. Conversely, that many combatants + Bard = Happy Fun Violence Time.
Personally I love having an item creator that can make pearls of power level 1 for the paladin, as they are able to use them to cast lessor restoration (only a level 1 paladin spell). As a paladin in my current group, I actually took the trait dangerously curious which added use magic device to my skill list, and with a high charisma as an aasimar, it is very nice to be able to use most items. But the biggest problem is action economy for the paladin when she is a tank as well...thankfully there is a dwarf fighter to help out.
I would suggest the paladin take selective channeling. Extra lay on hands also turns into more channels. Greater Mercy and ultimate mercy are also awesome...allowing the paladin to basically become the cleric.
If the bard and rogue both pick up Use Magical Device, you'll be covered in quite a few areas. Just buy scrolls and wands whenever you can. Both the paladin and the bard can use wands of the cure spells, so healing out of combat should be alright (though in-combat healing will be a bit difficult if you only have a wand... guess that's what Lay On Hands will protect against).
Yeah, Channeling is something I like quite a bit - especially when the damage is spread equally throughout a large group. Post-fight huddle, guys!
Sure, it might only heal 1d6 points of damage. But it's Area of Effect, so in terms of HP economics, that's multiplied by number of people it affects. In your case, a basic channel can heal 5d6, for an average of 17.5 recovered party HP.
That's 1 use of the most basic version of an ability. Your wand of CLW will be restoring 1d8, so 4.5 HP on average. So that's 3.89 uses of your wand to get the same effect - that's basically 58 gold, 4 silver you didn't spend.
In some cases, this math doesn't play out - but look at that party. Everybody's going to get a little dinged up. @Caulhoun is on point with this one - Channeling is your friend.
With that setup you'll be fine. People tend to place too much emphasis on party "roles" in Pathfinder. Having a dedicated healer, skill monkey, full arcane spellcaster, and brute certainly help to round out a party... but contrary to popular belief, it's not 100% necessary to make a party work.
That being said, the other posters are right. The bard's role in your party is pretty well defined (though I'd disagree that his role will "outshine" the others). As MurphysParadox suggested, it is recommended that the Rogue (or perhaps the bard, but I'd suggest rogue) pick up the Use Magic Device skill and use it for scrolls and wands. A rogue being able to use a scroll of Heal is a sexy, sexy thing.
Also keep in mind that there are FOUR melee characters in your group. While it may be tempting to have 2 of them target 1 foe while the other 2 target another, your group will work best if you FOCUS FIRE foes 1 at a time. Yes, this will mean creating clusterf***s around enemies with your FOUR melee party members (lolz), but you will find that it works best. Having 3 full HP enemies trying to kill you in Round 2 is better than having 2 full HP and 2 low HP enemies trying to kill you. Pro tip.
Oh, I don't think the Bard will outshine anybody - just that this party is pretty well set up to benefit from the Bard's versatility.
Having said that, everybody has the chance for awesome combat spotlight here:
- Rogue: With this many flanking partners? It's like Christmas and his birthday all at once! Roll ALL the dice!
- Bard: Yep.
- Fighter: The steadfast anchor. Smacking people into position for the 4-person Boot Party? This is pretty much your event coordinator - it's a violence party, and everybody dances, no exceptions.
- Monk: See above, but using mobility to get into position, lots of full attacks, stunning fist means they're probably the Rogue's very best friend. Also, I'm so glad your party has somebody with common sense powers (can I borrow them? ^_^)
- Paladin: To quote Isabella from Dragon Age, "She's a woman-shaped battering ram!" Damage, damage, and occasionally, just to prove a point, more damage. Plus the aforementioned utility.
...
Yeah, that's a shiny party. Every one of those characters sounds like a blast to play.
Learn to appreciate item creation feats, and consumables. Grabbing up wands of lesser restoration (750 gp) and cure light wounds (750 gp) can get your paladin and bard healing most ailments. Sadly you have a monk instead of a Ranger, but in general just use good teamwork, have the casters (bard and paladin) grab some item creation feats, and you guys should have a pretty well-rounded party.
We didn't thought about that. That's a great idea, I'll talk about it on table this Saturday.
___________________[...] Scrolls of situationally useful things like Detect Secret Doors, Comprehend Languages, Ghostbane Dirge, Delay Poison, Versatile Weapon, Remove Curse and so on. Scrolls are everybody's friend.
Battlefield control will rely much more on quick thinking and creative use of the environment. [...]
Scrolls? We have that covered. Battlefield control? Those are some great ideas. The ones that use that the most are the Bard and me (the Rogue) but I'll tell them to be ready to flip some tables.
___________________Personally I love having an item creator that can make pearls of power level 1 for the paladin, as they are able to use them to cast lessor restoration (only a level 1 paladin spell). [...]
I would suggest the paladin take selective channeling. Extra lay on hands also turns into more channels. Greater Mercy and ultimate mercy are also awesome...allowing the paladin to basically become the cleric.
Great call on the Pearls of Power, there are lots of useful Level 1 Paladin Spells. About Selective Channeling, I had to look the Feat and I must say it's amazing. In a recent encounter we were in some trouble and thought about using Channeling even if had healed the few remaining opponents. Greater and Ultimate Mercy look great too, specially the part of "I'll use Resurrection without that freaking 5000 GP component because I can!".
___________________If the bard and rogue both pick up Use Magical Device, you'll be covered in quite a few areas. Just buy scrolls and wands whenever you can. Both the paladin and the bard can use wands of the cure spells, so healing out of combat should be alright (though in-combat healing will be a bit difficult if you only have a wand... guess that's what Lay On Hands will protect against).
Yeah, the Bard and I have UMD to the max and I really get the mot use of it. Regarding healing in combat, I think the Paladin could follow the "Selective Channeling" advice.
___________________Also keep in mind that there are FOUR melee characters in your group. While it may be tempting to have 2 of them target 1 foe while the other 2 target another, your group will work best if you FOCUS FIRE foes 1 at a time. Yes, this will mean creating clusterf***s around enemies with your FOUR melee party members (lolz), but you will find that it works best. Having 3 full HP enemies trying to kill you in Round 2 is better than having 2 full HP and 2 low HP enemies trying to kill you. Pro tip.
That is brilliant, we're gonna focus since now.
___________________Thanks you all for your suggestions, feel free to give more if you want to. I have a lot to talk about on the next session. Greetings from Chile~!
One thing we have always done that also can make the game more challenging as well more about your characters is reduce magic item padding.
Make the game about what your characters can do and less about the plethora a magic items changing your character into something they aren't.
So we will usually only ever have one item that increases an attr, and 'maybe' a second but only at +2. We also start with a higher attr pool at character creation, but this way you can build what your concept is without all the crazy stupid dump stats that no one plays to in game. I mean you prolly chose pf over 4e because you want to rp vs just mechanics exploitation regardless of how silly it sounds or lack of sense it makes.
We also avoid adding any magic items that replicate character abilities, like ring of evasion for eg. If you really want evasion then you should pick a class that offers it. It is one thing i have always disagreed with is that the magic item economy in this game ends up destroying characters to a degree.
Also, i guess it depends on your gm game style, but dont worry soo much about roles and 'always' being togather, treat it more as a fluid story of how people act normally. So you will not 'always' be with the party, you have your own agendas (as long as they dont overshadow the game to much) and you dont need the fighter to hold your hand when you go to little boys room. I just hope your gm doesn't penalize you for that.