@ Dabbler - I meant spring attack from the beginning, but yeah I do like the change with that being a bonus feat at 10th. Spell resistance is a hindrance. How I got around it with one of my homebrewed warlock invocations was to allow for spell resistance to be dropped as a free action and then as an immediate action once the higher invocation was learned. Haven't play-tested that as of yet. Hopefully my warlock player takes the invocation.I think this is another common sense "fix" the devs will implement.
I would bet most people play this way, regardless. Enforcing it is just one of those things rules lawyers tend to cite to make themselves feel smart.
It makes perfect sense like you say, but I play with a tiny bit of a rules lawyer (running a game with two of my gms from way back), so I have to state it in my homebrewed text. I was thinking of implementing it across the board as a free action and then give the immediate as a feat, but haven't played the scenario yet and wasn't sure. Unless the spell resistance was forced upon you, one of the witch's spells come to mind, I would think it would be perfectly fine to lower it without having to use either a move and/or standard action. Just my thought on it.
Free action to drop SR is a good fix for Diamond Body, I must concede.
How about changing the ability instead, though, to a bonus to saves? It works for Paladins and would probably be easier to work in the long run...
Edit: I keep hearing about how MAD should be rewarded so, just chucking this out there, how about if you made Diamond Body add another stat to saves like the paladin's divine grace ability? Instead of making it one stat, though:
Add Strength to Fortitude saves
Add Intelligence to Reflex saves
Add Charisma to Will saves
That would certainly discourage dump-stating...
I agree, I was just brainstorming.
While I like Dabbler's suggestion I think having real SR where magic just rolls off the monk is thematically nicer.
Being able to be healed when unconscious should be possible, though, so why not just let the monk's SR only work against hostile magic?
And I'd add a swift ki action to increase SR by 4 for 1 round at the cost of 1 ki point.
Some additional thoughts on Dabbler's suggestion:
Getting rewards for MAD is nice, but then you would get the reward only very late in the game in this case (lvl 13), so this would be much weaker than the paladin's bonus which is based on his primary attribute. The monk might get something like +3/+1/+0 or even less which is not much (especially as he is already immune to poison).
So if going the paladin's route I'd suggest to double the saving throw bonuses from Con, Dex and Wis instead.
Agreed, then.
Now, about wholeness of body...I originally thought it would be useful if you could use it as a swift action, then I realised than it I was in a combat and taking hits I'd much rather not take damage in the first place than heal the damage I had taken. Hence the AC boost is where I would spend my ki 90% of the time rather than healing up - unless it was a lot more powerful than it is.
Then I considered another theme the monk is supposed to have: Independence. What if instead wholeness of body could heal not just hit points, but also lost ability points, negative levels, and other effects? That would make it much more useful, and it would also make the monk a lot more independent of the party.
Perhaps scale it like this:
5th level: Wholeness of Body, heal hit points & alleviate minor conditions (fatigued, dazzled, bleeding etc.)
7th level: Heal lost ability points at 1 ki = 1 point
9th level: Heal major conditions - blinded, deafened, exhausted. 3 points per condition.
11th level: Heal negative levels, 5 points per negative level.
13th level: Throw off curses and similar supernatural effects.
15th level: restore lost ability points and major problems much as regenerate.
Just a thought: I imagine that Paizo would *love* to change the monk in such a way, that all the existing stat blocks would not become obsolete.
Is there a way we can hit all the key points that need addressing - and at the same time not change existing stat blocks as written?
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Just a thought: I imagine that Paizo would *love* to change the monk in such a way, that all the existing stat blocks would not become obsolete.
Is there a way we can hit all the key points that need addressing - and at the same time not change existing stat blocks as written?
Only with an item, which they ruled out.
Mine is the easiest to implement. Take all the existing and add enhancement bonuses to unarmed at the appropriate level.
The changes I suggested require minimal changes. On most existing stat blocks the monk's wisdom is less than strength or dexterity, so Wis-to-hit has no effect on these. On those it does effect there is a bonus to hit, and that is all. Likewise the enhancement bonus to hit is just that, a flat bonus and while it will change numbers, the change is minimal.
The ability to bypass DR should be written into ki-pool, and won't have any effect on the stat-blocks save where such things are mentioned. It would mean the removal of ki strike (adamantine) (magic) and (lawful) as these would in effect no longer apply or be required.
I think that making any significant changes that address the monk's problems and not changing stat-blocks at all is a lost cause.
Now, about wholeness of body...I originally thought it would be useful if you could use it as a swift action, then I realised than it I was in a combat and taking hits I'd much rather not take damage in the first place than heal the damage I had taken. Hence the AC boost is where I would spend my ki 90% of the time rather than healing up - unless it was a lot more powerful than it is.
Good point. On another thread you suggested to change it to fast healing for that reason which is another good idea, although it would break the concept of ki powers having a duration of at most 1 round (thereby eliminating bookkeeping).
Then I considered another theme the monk is supposed to have: Independence. What if instead wholeness of body could heal not just hit points, but also lost ability points, negative levels, and other effects? That would make it much more useful, and it would also make the monk a lot more independent of the party.
Perhaps scale it like this:
5th level: Wholeness of Body, heal hit points & alleviate minor conditions (fatigued, dazzled, bleeding etc.)
7th level: Heal lost ability points at 1 ki = 1 point
9th level: Heal major conditions - blinded, deafened, exhausted. 3 points per condition.
11th level: Heal negative levels, 5 points per negative level.
13th level: Throw off curses and similar supernatural effects.
15th level: restore lost ability points and major problems much as regenerate.
I like that! Actually I'm a big fan of the independence theme of the monk.
Did you mean restoration instead of regenerate at 15th level? Restoration already has the precedent of being available for the Qinggong monk: 2 ki points, self only, available at 8th level, i.e. even much earlier than your suggestion.
Good point. On another thread you suggested to change it to fast healing for that reason which is another good idea, although it would break the concept of ki powers having a duration of at most 1 round (thereby eliminating bookkeeping).
Now, about wholeness of body...I originally thought it would be useful if you could use it as a swift action, then I realised than it I was in a combat and taking hits I'd much rather not take damage in the first place than heal the damage I had taken. Hence the AC boost is where I would spend my ki 90% of the time rather than healing up - unless it was a lot more powerful than it is.
I already broke that with my bypass DR ability: 1 ki point to bypass 1 DR per level for 1 round per level on one target. On the flip side I think some ki-abilities need to last longer than 1 round. Ki is awarded on the same scale as magus arcana points, but they largely scale per minute.
Then I considered another theme the monk is supposed to have: Independence. What if instead wholeness of body could heal not just hit points, but also lost ability points, negative levels, and other effects? That would make it much more useful, and it would also make the monk a lot more independent of the party.
Perhaps scale it like this:
5th level: Wholeness of Body, heal hit points & alleviate minor conditions (fatigued, dazzled, bleeding etc.)
7th level: Heal lost ability points at 1 ki = 1 point
9th level: Heal major conditions - blinded, deafened, exhausted. 3 points per condition.
11th level: Heal negative levels, 5 points per negative level.
13th level: Throw off curses and similar supernatural effects.
15th level: restore lost ability points and major problems much as regenerate.I like that! Actually I'm a big fan of the independence theme of the monk.
Did you mean restoration instead of regenerate at 15th level? Restoration already has the precedent of being available for the Qinggong monk: 2 ki points, self only, available at 8th level, i.e. even much earlier than your suggestion.
Restoration restores lost ability points, which I listed at 7th level, but we could scale it so that the Qi Gong monk gets it earlier than the standard, making it worthwhile.
But yes, the monk's healing needs to be better in some way; as it is wholeness of body is a waste of space. Any character carrying a potion can get as much healing for less resources.
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Fast healing would be overpowered, as it would basically allow you to heal completely between battles.
I am fine with adding removal of status effects as you listed, but that is going to take a good chunk of book.
Remember one of the goals was a fix that could fix in the guidelines of current core.
Mine actually shortens it a bit, so there may be some room. But only so much.
I agree, but then wholeness of body is of secondary importance. Increase the HP healed and make it a swift action (3x level say) and it can be worth it having.
The effects could be written in shorter, or...
How about Wholeness of Body acting as a defence against ability damage, rather than healing it? Spend the ki as an immediate action, 1 ki reduces 1 ability point of damage?
Or...how about lay on hands, as a paladin but self only? That would cover a lot of bases with minimal words, and give a lot of potential effects. Monk of the healing hand archetype then gets better as they could gain the full suite (effect others, channelling) at an earlier level.
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Actually, let me backpedal as now that I am reading Lay on hands, a lot of changes would be needed.
"Lay On Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.
Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage."
We need to lose the undead stuff, and change the times to day to spending ki points.
And then we'd have to add all the mercy stuff...I don't disagree it is a good template, but it would need work
While I like Dabbler's suggestion I think having real SR where magic just rolls off the monk is thematically nicer.
Being able to be healed when unconscious should be possible, though, so why not just let the monk's SR only work against hostile magic?
And I'd add a swift ki action to increase SR by 4 for 1 round at the cost of 1 ki point.
Some additional thoughts on Dabbler's suggestion:
Getting rewards for MAD is nice, but then you would get the reward only very late in the game in this case (lvl 13), so this would be much weaker than the paladin's bonus which is based on his primary attribute. The monk might get something like +3/+1/+0 or even less which is not much (especially as he is already immune to poison).
So if going the paladin's route I'd suggest to double the saving throw bonuses from Con, Dex and Wis instead.
I posted some ideas for an archtype spell proof monk on that topic. As wisdom is added to SR, only hostile spells would be resisted.
Actually, let me backpedal as now that I am reading Lay on hands, a lot of changes would be needed.
"Lay On Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.
Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage."
We need to lose the undead stuff, and change the times to day to spending ki points.
And then we'd have to add all the mercy stuff...I don't disagree it is a good template, but it would need work
Well like I said, it needs to be self only (so no undead effecting) and gaining mercies every 3 levels after the 5th. Ki cost at 2 per use is then pretty justified as a swift action. It's a good emergency & condition heal. You wouldn't necessarily use it to gain hp mid-combat, but removing a condition? Hell yes!
The first mercy should be gained at 5th level together with Wholeness of Body and then one mercy every 2 levels (to make up for the late start).
I would probably drop shaken and frightened because they do no fit Wholeness of the Body well.
Dazed etc. are ok, though.
Furthermore I would drop poisoned because of the monk being immune to poison anyway.
Diseased might dropped as well because of Purity of Body. On the other hand it might be kept, dropping Purity of Body instead.
Cursed is a corner case (not body related in general) but fits a monk fine, so I'd keep it.
All those changes would make it distinct from Lay on Hands, though, so there would be nothing gained anymore from referring to Lay on Hands... :-)
Wholeness of Body: At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a standard action. He can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to his monk level by using 2 points from his ki pool.
We could change to:
Wholeness of Body: At 7th level or higher, a monk may spend 2 ki points to lay on hands on themselves (only) as a paladin of the same level. In addition they gain one mercy at 7th level, and one every two levels after that. They may only select mercies that alleviate physical conditions.
No need to tell players they don't need to remove disease or poison effects, they can work that out for themselves. I can't see any other modification that would work this well and take less text.
From my suggested fixes (page 20 of the If Monks Have Trouble Hitting) thread.
Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a swift action. By spending 2 points from his ki pool, the monk may heal 1d6 points of damage for every two monk levels he possesses.
39 words vs. 39 words for the canon version. It doesn't feel right to add mercies to that, at least to me.
MA
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From my suggested fixes (page 20 of the If Monks Have Trouble Hitting) thread.
Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a swift action. By spending 2 points from his ki pool, the monk may heal 1d6 of damage for every two monk levels he possesses.
38 words vs. 39 words for the canon version. It doesn't feel right to add mercies to that, at least to me.
MA
That works. I wouldn't mind something like lesser restoration at higher levels, but this works fine too.
Here is the entire list of 'minimal' suggestions I made.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. A monk may make a flurry of blows attack only when he is not wearing any type of armor, using or wielding a shield, and carrying no more than a light load. If these conditions are met, he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) at his highest attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonus are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table 3-9 above. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before his next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. At 11th level, the monk gains a second additional attack at his highest attack bonus when using his flurry of blows ability.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers as part of a flurry of blows. A monk may choose to perform a flurry of blows with a single weapon if he so desires. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks. A monk cannot combine Two-Weapon Fighting with his flurry of blows to gain additional attacks.
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk may make his unarmed attacks with any part of his body, whether or not his hands are full. A monk applies his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with is unarmed strikes than a normal person would. A monk deals 1d8 damage (lethal or nonlethal at his option) when his unarmed strikes. This damage is given for a Medium monk. A Small monk instead deals 1d6 points of damage with his unarmed strikes, while a Large monk deals 2d6 points of damage with his unarmed strikes. This unarmed damage does not increase as the monk gains levels.
Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike grants his unarmed attacks a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, as well as allowing him unarmed attacks to affect incorporeal creatures and overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 8th level, and every four levels gained thereafter, the enhancement bonus granted on his unarmed strikes for attack rolls and damage rolls increases by +1, to a maximum bonus of +5 at 20th level. Starting at 8th level, a monk’s unarmed strikes are treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 12th level, his unarmed strikes are treated as cold iron or alchemical silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness. At 20th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are treated as chaotic, evil, and good weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack. In addition, he can spend 1 point to make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when the monk uses a move action to move, charges, or uses the Spring Attack feat. Finally, a monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation: these hours do not need to be consecutive.
Slow Fall (Ex): At 4th level or higher, a monk can fall incredible distances without suffering damage. When falling, a monk always lands on his feet. In addition, by spending 1 point of from his ki pool (see above) as an immediate action, he reduces the number of damage die rolled due to the distance he falls by 1d6 per monk level he possesses, to a maximum reduction of 20d6 at 20th level. Unlike magical spells (such as feather fall) with similar effects, a monk is not slowed during his descent, making this ability a favored method for higher level monks to rapidly descend great distances quickly.
Monastic Weapons Training: Starting at 5th level, a monk gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls when using unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. Every four levels gained thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), this bonus increases by +1. A monk also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks he makes with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons, as well as all checks made to perform a grapple combat maneuver.
This ability does not stack with the fighter Weapons Training class ability, nor is it affected by any magic item which improves fighter Weapons Training.
Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a swift action. By spending 2 points from his ki pool, the monk may heal 1d6 points of damage for every two monk levels he possesses.
Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. Unlike the spell, using abundant step does not end the monk’s turn. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level.
The new text is 1,173 words (247 more than the current text, but without the need for Table 3-10, which is a wash).
To summarize:
1. Flurry of blows. Go back to the 3.5 flurry. No more virtual BAB, if a monk is medium BAB/d8 hit die, than let him be medium BAB.
2. Unarmed strikes. Medium monks do 1d8, Small monks do 1d6, Large monks do 2d6 . . . and the damage never increases (except when wearing a monk's robe, see below).
3. Ki Pool. Change to monk level + Wisdom. Ki strike grants +1 enhancement bonus at 4th level, increasing by +1 at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level. 8th level gains lawful weapon, then afterwards follows standard magic weapon progression (cold iron/silver at 12th, adamantine at 16th, alignment at 20th). AoMF is still useful because it can add weapon properties, while ki strike does the heavy lifting of enhancement bonuses. Drop +20' speed for 1 ki, instead get an additional attack at your highest attack bonus when moving, charging, or using the Spring Attack feat for 1 ki.
4. Slow Fall. Replace the whole thing. Read it, because it is quite different. No wall required, though.
5. Monastic Weapons Training. At 5th level, gets a modified version of Weapons Training that gives a +1 bonus to attack rolls only for unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. This bonus also applies to combat maneuvers performed with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons and with grapple maneuvers. Increases at 9th, 13th, and 17th level. Does not stack with fighter training, and you cannot use gloves of dueling.
6. Wholeness of Body. Made it a swift action that heals 1d6 for every 2 monk levels to self only. Exactly like the paladin's lay on hands, except it only affects the monk.
7. Abundant Step. Changed to allow for actions after using this ability.
And that is it. It would also work to boost the monk to where it needs to be without breaking the class. And it can fit within the space available.
Let me know what you think.
MONK'S ROBE has to be changed as well, since the unarmed strike damage no longer increases as the monk gains levels. Here is what I've got:
This simple brown robe, when worn, confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC is treated as a monk of five levels higher, and her unarmed strike damage is treated as if she were one size category larger. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains a +1 bonus to AC (as per the monk class AC Bonus, but does not add Wisdom). and deals 1d8 damage with her unarmed strikes (1d6 if Small, 2d6 if Large).
That should keep things at the same price, since a 5th level monk did 1d8 damage anyway. This would put Medium monks at 2d6, Small monks at 1d8, and Large monks at 2d8. Right in line with the damage you dealth when you first got a monk's robe anyway. Especially since you cannot afford a monk's robes until 10th level (if using the balanced WBL guidelines of no more than 25% for a single item) or 8th level (if you allow up to 50% of the wealth on a single item).
Master Arminas
From my suggested fixes (page 20 of the If Monks Have Trouble Hitting) thread.
Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a swift action. By spending 2 points from his ki pool, the monk may heal 1d6 points of damage for every two monk levels he possesses.
39 words vs. 39 words for the canon version. It doesn't feel right to add mercies to that, at least to me.
MA
Except that the mercies are actually pretty important. Swift action economy in a combat means the monk has to choose between boosting AC or attacks and self-healing, and self-healing always comes second to taking down the enemy and/or not getting hit by them. However, if you are alleviating conditions that are hampering you from doing this, it's suddenly worth it.
Self healing alone for the monk, even as swift action, isn't cutting it for the monk the way it does for the paladin, because the monk has a lot of things to spend those swift actions on - ki-powers, styles etc. - that clash with the swift action needed to heal.
Just a thought: I imagine that Paizo would *love* to change the monk in such a way, that all the existing stat blocks would not become obsolete.
Is there a way we can hit all the key points that need addressing - and at the same time not change existing stat blocks as written?
This is really important. You can't flat out remove any abilities because archetypes assume you have them in order to trade them away. In the same vein, although I hate slow fall as implemented there's that feat Spider Step that assumes you have it and that it's somehow measured in 10s of feet.
Modest changes and it's not a problem though. You can sneak a +hit into ki strike, allow unarmed strikes to be straight up enchanted without making the character table or ability names look at all different.
Was already working on it.
MA MONK
Human, 10th level monk. 20-pt buy (+2 racial in Wis).
Starting ability scores: Str 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
+1 in Str (4th level), +1 in Dex (8th level).
Interim ability scores (pre-magic): Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.
Magic Items: Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8,000 gp), Belt of Physical Might +2 (Dex/Str, 10,000 gp), Boots of Elvenkind (2,500 gp), Bracers of Armor +4 (16,000 gp), Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 (4,000 gp), Monk's Robes (13,000 gp), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000 gp); 500 gp remaining for consumables.
Final ability scores: Str 18/16, Dex 17/15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18/16, Cha 8.
BAB: +7
Unarmed Strike: +16 (2d6+6, 19-20/x2) (+4 Str, +1 feat, +2 monastic weapons training, +2 ki strike)
UAS w/ki: +16/+16 (2d6+6, 19-20/x2)
Flurry of Blows: +16/+16/+11 (2d6+6, 19-20/x2)
Flurry of Blows w/ki: +16/+16/+16/+11 (2d6+6, 19-20/x2)
Ki Pool: 14
Ki Strike: +2 (lawful)
Monastic Training: +2
CMB: +16 (+18 grapple/trip)
CMD: 34 (36 vs. grapple/trip)
AC: 29 (Flat-footed 26, Touch 23)
Stunning Fist: 10 per day, DC 21
Wholeness of Body: 2 ki, 5d6
Slow Fall: 1 ki, -10d6
High Jump : 1 ki, +63 jump
Saves: Fort +9, Reflex +10, Will +11 (immune to disease, +2 vs. enchantments)
Movement: 60'
Initiative: +4
Hit Points: ~69 (average is 68.5; 10d8+20)
Feats: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) (1), Blind-Fight (9), Deflect Arrows (MB-1), Dodge (HB-1), Improved Critical (MB-10), Improved Grapple (MB-2), Improved Trip (MB-6), Mobility (5), Spring Attack (7), and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) (3).
Skills (Favored Class bonus, all levels): Acrobatics 10 ranks (+21/+43 jumping), Climb 5 ranks (+12), Escape Artist 10 ranks (+16), Perception 10 ranks (+17), Sense Motive 10 ranks (+17), Stealth 10 ranks (+17), Swim 5 ranks (+12)
Not optimized, I know. But he is a balanced monk with no significant weakness. Core only.
MA
Looking at your build, MA, the stated AC is awesome, but where is it coming from? I can only work out AC27 from stats (+7 total), monk level (+2) and items (+8).
Otherwise, attacks are awful. The damage output is OK but the attack bonus is well below par for a combat class, so this build isn't 'fixed' as far as the monk's hitting is concerned, and I don't see a way to get past DR either.
Base 10, +4 Bracers, +1 Dodge, +2 Class, +1 Monk's Robes, +3 Dex, +4 Wis, +2 Deflection, +2 Natural Armor . . . huh. I must have added something twice. Should be 29. I am fixing. Thanks for spotting that.
Now, I have no idea where I messed up. Shrug.
Well, like I said he isn't optimized. Attack bonus could 2 points higher if I concentrated on Strength, losing 1 point of AC and 1 point off my Reflex save, and dropping Cha to 7.
That would +18/+18/+13 for 2d6+6 per hit.
Still, against an AC of 24 (CR 10 critter, on average), he is doing
(.65% * 13 average damage) + (.65% * 13 average damage * .1 crit chance) = 11.245 on a single hit, OR
(.65% * 13 average damage) + (.65% * 13 average damage * .1 crit chance) + (.65% * 13 average damage) + (.65% * 13 average damage * .1 crit chance) = 22.49 when he spends ki to get a second attack on a move, OR
(.65% * 13 average damage) + (.65% * 13 average damage * .1 crit chance) + (.65% * 13 average damage) + (.65% * 13 average damage * .1 crit chance) + (.4% * 13 average damage) + (.4% * 13 average damage * .1 crit chance) = 28.21 on a flurry of blows, OR
(.65% * 13 average damage) + (.65% * 13 average damage * .1 crit chance) + (.65% * 13 average damage) + (.65% * 13 average damage * .1 crit chance) + (.65% * 13 average damage) + (.65% * 13 average damage * .1 crit chance) + (.4% * 13 average damage) + (.4% * 13 average damage * .1 crit chance) = 39.455 on a flurry of blows when he spends ki to get a second attack.
Not too shabby. Since he doesn't get the +3 ki strike until 12th level, right now, he doesn't have much that can get through any DR except /magic and /law, but he is no worse off than an ordinary monk either.
The pure Strength monk would have even more DPR since his additional +2 attack bonus would change those .65% chances to .75% and the .4% to .5%.
MA
Well, AC 28 with Dodge, which I missed in the feat list. Decent AC, poor to hit I'm afraid.
Well, AC 28 with Dodge, which I missed in the feat list. Decent AC, poor to hit I'm afraid.
Well, he is +2 higher than an equal level monk with the same stats (thanks to monastic weapons training) when moving and +1 higher than a CRB monk while flurrying.
MA
Er...an equal level monk with equal stats, maybe. But myself I would have the monk's hitting stat in the 20-24 range by 10th level, easily. compared to a full BAB class which could have +10 BAB, +3 weapon, +1 feat, and +6 to +8 hitting stat you would have +20 to +22, putting you odds to hit 20%-30% worse off and that makes a big difference.
Your problem is that your monk is still very MAD.
Er...an equal level monk with equal stats, maybe. But myself I would have the monk's hitting stat in the 20-24 range by 10th level, easily. compared to a full BAB class which could have +10 BAB, +3 weapon, +1 feat, and +6 to +8 hitting stat you would have +20 to +22, putting you odds to hit 20%-30% worse off and that makes a big difference.
Your problem is that your monk is still very MAD.
Okay, how's this?
MA MONK II
Human, 10th level monk. 20-pt buy (+2 racial in Str).
Starting ability scores: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 7
+2 in Str (4th level and 8th level).
Interim ability scores (pre-magic): Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 8.
Magic Items: Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000 gp), Belt of Giant Strength +4 (16,000 gp), Boots of Elvenkind (2,500 gp), Bracers of Armor +4 (16,000 gp), Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 (4,000 gp), Monk's Robes (13,000 gp), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000 gp), 500 gp remaining for consumables.
Final ability scores: Str 24/20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 16/14, Cha 7.
BAB: +7
Unarmed Strike: +19 (2d6+9, 19-20/x2) (+7 Str, +1 feat, +2 monastic weapons training, +2 ki strike)
UAS w/ki: +19/+19 (2d6+9, 19-20/x2)
Flurry of Blows: +19/+19/+14 (2d6+9, 19-20/x2)
Flurry of Blows w/ki: +19/+19/+19/+14 (2d6+9, 19-20/x2)
Ki Pool: 13
Ki Strike: +2 (lawful)
Monastic Training: +2
CMB: +19 (+21 grapple/trip)
CMD: 29 (31 vs. grapple/trip)
AC: 26 (Flat-footed 24, Touch 21)
Stunning Fist: 10 per day, DC 20
Wholeness of Body: 2 ki, 5d6
Slow Fall: 1 ki, -10d6
High Jump : 1 ki, +62 jump
Saves: Fort +9, Reflex +9, Will +10 (immune to disease, +2 vs. enchantments)
Movement: 60'
Initiative: +2
Hit Points: ~69 (average is 68.5; 10d8+20)
Feats: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) (1), Blind-Fight (9), Deflect Arrows (MB-1), Dodge (HB-1), Improved Critical (MB-10), Improved Grapple (MB-2), Improved Trip (MB-6), Mobility (5), Spring Attack (7), and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) (3).
Skills (Favored Class bonus, all levels): Acrobatics 10 ranks (+20/+42 jumping), Climb 5 ranks (+15), Perception 10 ranks (+16), Sense Motive 10 ranks (+16), Stealth 10 ranks (+16), Swim 5 ranks (+15)
Strength is much higher, AC is slightly less, his first attack is at +19 for 2d6+9 damage. Full flurry with ki looks like +19/+19/+19/+14, each for 2d6+9, 19-20/x2.
MA
That looks better. AC has suffered a little, my target is around 28 at 10th level especially with those hit points, but hitting is pretty good and so is damage. My let-down is that this has become another 'hulk smash' monk build, but that's just personal preference.
That's why I went for wis-to-hit as part of a fix: quick, easy, and it takes some of the MAD out of the monk.
That looks better. AC has suffered a little, my target is around 28 at 10th level especially with those hit points, but hitting is pretty good and so is damage. My let-down is that this has become another 'hulk smash' monk build, but that's just personal preference.
That's why I went for wis-to-hit as part of a fix: quick, easy, and it takes some of the MAD out of the monk.
Yep, which why I didn't want to do Hulk smash with zen! I much prefer a balanced style, but the game doesn't reward that.
MA
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Er...an equal level monk with equal stats, maybe. But myself I would have the monk's hitting stat in the 20-24 range by 10th level, easily. compared to a full BAB class which could have +10 BAB, +3 weapon, +1 feat, and +6 to +8 hitting stat you would have +20 to +22, putting you odds to hit 20%-30% worse off and that makes a big difference.
Your problem is that your monk is still very MAD.
Which is kind of why I think your monk goes to far. The fighter was 22, a ranger would be 20, when we get into that range we are stepping on toes.
MA's first monk looks like a monk I could make now, by the numbers. MA, I would prefer you try to optimize your monk, so we can see where it is broken (if it is broken). I'm not asking you to min/max, but I do want you to see how high you can get it.
MA's second can get to 2d6+9 without adding AoMF, meaning if you swap out the boots and lower the bracers we are at 3d6+9 for four attacks, two at +19.
Seem a bit high to me, when compared to our baseline fighter.
That is with spending 13,000 gp on monk's robes, which increases the damage from 1d8 to 2d6. Without that, we could add a +2 AoMF by dropping the bracers to +3, but we would actually lose 2 points of AC in the exchange (1 from the robes, 1 from the bracers). And I forgot to add the extra use of stunning fist for the robes in both builds. Oops.
MA
Might as well post one, based on my personal revision.
20pt buy half-orc (because they're awesome) monk
10th Level Stats
S20 (+2 racial, +2 level), D14, C14, I9, W14, X7
Equipment (62000 total)
+2 equivalent unarmed strike enchantment (16000), Belt of Dex +2 (4000), Headband of Wis +2 (4000), Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000), Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000), Bracers of Armor +3 (9000), Monk's Robe (13000), Ring of Protection +1 (2000), Misc/Consumable (8000)
Feats
1) Toughness, Deflect Arrows(B)
2) Dodge(B)
3) Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
5) Combat Expertise*
6) Improved Trip(B)
7) Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
9) Greater Trip*
10) Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike(B)
*this revision allows the monk to use wis instead of int to qualify for combat feats
Unarmed Strike Attack and Damage
Single Attack:
+20 (+10 BAB, +5 Str, +2 ki strike, +2 enhancement, +1 feat)
Flurry:
+18/+18/+13+13 (expect 39 DPR against AC 24, 50 w/ki)
Damage:
2d6+7 (+5 Str, +2 enh)
AC
25 (10 +3 class bonus, +3 dex, +3 wis, +1 ring, +3 bracers, +1 dodge, +1 amulet)
Saves
F 11 (7 base +2 con, +2 cloak)
R 12 (7 base +3 dex, +2 cloak)
W 12 (7 base +3 wis, +2 cloak)
What target are we shooting for anyway? If this is too low it's I can give him straight up weapon training instead of +hit (not damage) on ki strike.
In most of the 3.5 games I've played in SR was only against hostile magic. I will probably just go with that idea as well. I know several people who do enforce dropping SR, even for healing, requiring a standard action. In hindsight that seems a little goofy. Hopefully that is changed in the text. Fester was the witch spell I was thinking about earlier.
I actually think Arminas has a pretty solid monk there. Giving a 3/4 class weapon training and full +5 weapon enhancements will bring them to one point behind standard full base attack classes.
You really cant expect to be at the exact to hit ratio of a fighter. I think his gets pretty close. I think that the MAD issue is definitely there, but it has more to do with the way ki works(which he has sort of helped with the ki progression change) and the fact that stunning fist DC's work the way they do.
It would be interesting to see how the game would change if the ki enhancement bonus was added to stunning fist DC's. That would aleviate some of the need to go hell bent for leather into wisdom and just use it as a secondary statistic.
with that change, Arminas' second monk would have a stunning fist DC of 22.
so I just had a thought, what about letting monks use their wisdom in place of con for hitpoints? I mean it would really be all about spiritual stamina and cut Con down in the made area.
p.s. not to mention it's like a single 15 word sentence thrown in there.
Which is kind of why I think your monk goes to far. The fighter was 22, a ranger would be 20, when we get into that range we are stepping on toes.Er...an equal level monk with equal stats, maybe. But myself I would have the monk's hitting stat in the 20-24 range by 10th level, easily. compared to a full BAB class which could have +10 BAB, +3 weapon, +1 feat, and +6 to +8 hitting stat you would have +20 to +22, putting you odds to hit 20%-30% worse off and that makes a big difference.
Your problem is that your monk is still very MAD.
No, giving the monk smite evil or favoured enemies is stepping on their toes; hitting on a par with them when they do not use these features is not. The monk is clearly expected to be hitting with the same odds as these classes or FoB wouldn't be based on full BAB. Other factors prevent this, but I would say the basic intent is clear.
My intention was to get the monk hitting as accurately as a fallen paladin or a magus, and I'd say I succeeded at what I was aiming at. I will add, a bard or magus can hit at these numbers as well with 3/4 BAB. Either would have:
+7 BAB + 3 Weapon + 7 attribute (both are not primary spellcasters, so they can make their hitting stat their focus) +2 special (magus arcana or bardic song) = +19.
I rest my case.
Might as well post one, based on my personal revision.
Can you sum up in a few lines as we have done? Remember this 'monk fix' needs to be short and to the point, as Paizo are only looking to 'tweak' the monk text in the CRB.
What target are we shooting for anyway? If this is too low it's I can give him straight up weapon training instead of +hit (not damage) on ki strike.
Hit as well as a 3/4 BAB class like the magus or bard (or a fallen paladin if you prefer). Good AC, decent save on stunning fist.
Your monk is OK, attacks are good, AC is less than stellar, hp won't be great. The main thing I don't like is that it's a 'hulk smash' monk. Again. But that's just me.
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We set the goals back a page ago, and the builds exceed them.
The goals were.
1.Should be able to hit with a primary attack more than 50% but less than 75%
2.Stunning fist should work more than 10% but less that 25%
3.AC should be greater than the Bestiary averages (it is a melee class)
4.DPR should be greater than the average ¾ caster class wading into melee but less than the average Martial Class (we can discuss what these exact numbers are, but again, just looking for consensus)
5.All of this should be able to be accomplished unarmored and unarmed.
Those were the agreed goalposts, both as a min and a man. Most of the builds exceed them.
Power creep isn't the goal, balancing is.
Might as well post one, based on my personal revision.Can you sum up in a few lines as we have done? Remember this 'monk fix' needs to be short and to the point, as Paizo are only looking to 'tweak' the monk text in the CRB.
What target are we shooting for anyway? If this is too low it's I can give him straight up weapon training instead of +hit (not damage) on ki strike.Hit as well as a 3/4 BAB class like the magus or bard (or a fallen paladin if you prefer). Good AC, decent save on stunning fist.
Your monk is OK, attacks are good, AC is less than stellar, hp won't be great. The main thing I don't like is that it's a 'hulk smash' monk. Again. But that's just me.
Sure. The changes relevant to hit and damage are:
1) effectively full BAB for all purposes with US or monk weapons2) ki strike gives +1 hit per four levels
3) ki strike allows penetration of more DR types and grants them earlier
4) US enchantment costs 2x that of a single weapon
There are also a few quality of life improvements.
Edit; I like the beef monk style of monk so no apologies there. :)
We set the goals back a page ago, and the builds exceed them.
The goals were.
1.Should be able to hit with a primary attack more than 50% but less than 75%
2.Stunning fist should work more than 10% but less that 25%
3.AC should be greater than the Bestiary averages (it is a melee class)
4.DPR should be greater than the average ¾ caster class wading into melee but less than the average Martial Class (we can discuss what these exact numbers are, but again, just looking for consensus)
5.All of this should be able to be accomplished unarmored and unarmed.Those were the agreed goalposts, both as a min and a man. Most of the builds exceed them.
Power creep isn't the goal, balancing is.
Specifically number 4 is what I'm looking at. I've been doing my comparison against a two kukri fighter but I'm wondering if anyone had crunched numbers for a melee bard or great sword fighter or anything else.