Why or why don't you think so?
It's been argued that undead are immune to illusions -- because illusions are mind-affecting spells. But the undead template seems to indicate that phantasms and patterns don't work vs. undead, but figments (of which the above spells are labeled) are decidely not listed as spells undead are immune to.
Meanwhile, if you look at the template for Oozes, it says they are immune to illusions specifically -- wouldn't it say the same on the undead template if they were immune to all illusions and not just the sub-types indicated?
Does it say somewhere that all figments are phantasms or patterns perhaps? If you can cite your reason rather than just your view/opinion, that might help too!
The Magic rules, under the Illusion school, says:
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression, all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see. Third parties viewing or studying the scene don't notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.
The same is not the case for any other type of illusion spells.
Most of the other types create false sensations. Since undead still use senses (seeing, hearing, and so on), they're not immune to them.
Vrischika111: How did your GM handle the fact that undead can now suffer sneak attacks and criticals? :D
- Gauss
I didn't know THAT, Gauss... is that true? Where is that spelled out?
Sorry for threadjack:
How does hide from undead figure in here? It's lower level and another school (abjuration) and has a divine source, but explicitely calls out
Undead cannot see, hear, or smell creatures warded by this spell.
.
Ruyan.
|
Sorry for threadjack:
How does hide from undead figure in here? It's lower level and another school (abjuration) and has a divine source, but explicitely calls out
Undead cannot see, hear, or smell creatures warded by this spell..
Ruyan.
That's abjuration, and has no illusion or mind-effecting component.
Yeah, I know that. Ok, bad wording, I'll try again.
Since hide from exists and undead are typically seen as a speciality of all things religion/faith/gods-related, does invisibility as another possibility to go unnoticed by undead make it too easy?
I am player and GM so don't put me in either corner here.
Ruyan.
Hide from undead prevents several methods of detection that invisibility doesn't prevent, among them blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense.
Undead creatures with any of those abilities can easily find an invisible creature, but they can't find one that's under the effect of hide from undead.
There's also the fact that hide from undead lasts 10 minutes per level instead of invisibility's 1 minute per level, has multiple targets instead of affecting a single person, and the fact that it's level 1 instead of level 2.
All in all, I'd much rather have hide from undead than invisibility if I knew my group would be coming up against multiple undead creatures.
If the Undead Type only stated, "Immunity to all mind-affecting effects", then I would say it was up to DM interpretation. Play on.
But, the Undead Type then goes on to list specific Spell Schools, Sub-schools, and effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms). Each of these specifically state they are either mind-affecting spells or effects.
Since Mirror Image and Silent Image, are both Figments and the Figment Sub-school does not specifically state, "all figments are mind-affecting spells", like the other Illusion Sub-schools, I would rule Undead DO suffer the effects of Mirror Image and Silent Image.
The Magic rules, under the Illusion school, says:
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression, all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see. Third parties viewing or studying the scene don't notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.
The same is not the case for any other type of illusion spells.
Most of the other types create false sensations. Since undead still use senses (seeing, hearing, and so on), they're not immune to them.
Pretty much how I see it.
Vrischika111: LOL @choking out.
Vicon: If you want to see a more 'positive' statement that undead and constructs now suffer from sneak attacks go HERE and download the free conversion guide. Page 7 in the Rogue section states this.
Note: What I mean by 'positive' is a statement they have been changed. The sections in the Bestiary on constructs, undead, and plants do not state they were changed, they just removed the 3.5 sections that made them immune to criticals and sneak attacks.
- Gauss