Remember how stunning was handled way back in AD&D's 1st edition? Basically, a monk that rolled high enough automatically stunned their opponent . . . if I recall correctly, it was a roll of 5 or more higher than their opponents AC. Of course, back in those days, you were also limited by your oppponents height/weight on what you could stun.
Third edition changed that, and in many ways for the worse. They made it so that stunning was no longer dependent on your attack roll, but instead was a free action you added to an attack before you rolled to hit . . . meaning you have to guess at which attacks hit and spend a finite resource. Pathfinder then continued that, but they did add all sorts of special conditions a higher level monk can bestow on a target instead of briefly stunning them.
But the core problem remains the same as it was in Third Edition (and 3.5): the monk has to declare his stunning attack before the roll is ever made. Then it has to deal damage, and then his opponent gets to save to negate it completely.
So, how about we take a page from old school and go back to a system that resembles that original method. Here is what I have come up with. We replace Stunning Fist with the following:
Stunning Strike (Ex): At 1st level, when the monk is attacking with his unarmed strike and scores a successful crical hit against an opponent, he is able to momentarily incapacitate or hinder his opponent. After successfully confirming the critical hit, if the opponent suffers any hit point damage, he must make a Fortitude saving throw with a DC equal to 10 + the monk's base attack bonus. A monk attacking with his flurry of blows special ability (see above) uses his effective base attack bonus for flurry for this DC.
If the opponent fails this saving throw, then he is stunned for 1 round. If the opponent is successful on this saving throw, he is instead staggered for one round.
The effects of this ability do not stack, nor do they extend the duration of the stagger or the stun beyond 1 round, regardless of how many successful critical hits the monk might land in a single turn. However, the creature must save versus each successful critical hit and is stunned if he fails his saving throw against any of these. Otherwise the creature is staggered.
If a monk attacks multiple opponents in the same round, and successful scores a critical hit against two or more of them, each opponent must save or be affected as described above.
Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned or staggered by this class ability.
A stunned opponent cannot take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes an additional -2 penalty to AC.
A staggered opponent may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take swift and immediate actions.
This returns the monk to a level where he doesn't need to be prophetic and expend a stunning attempt for no gain . . . either he scores a critical hit or he doesn't. And if he does, then he gets to stagger or stun his opponent. It works the same way as the critical feats a fighter gets, but for a shorter duration. Since it can only be used with unarmed strike (and ki focus weapons), such a critical only happens on a roll of 20 (19-20 if the monk takes Improved Critical as a feat, standard or bonus), and then confirms that critical hit. Even with a ki focus weapon, I believe there is only one special monk weapon that has a base 19-20 threat range (the temple sword).
How does this change the game? Well, the monk isn't hit or miss with his stunning attempts anymore. If he gets a critical, he gets to apply one of two conditions. A good attack roll might just hinder his opponent long enough for the monk to finish him . . . or at least rough him up a bit. There is no daily usage limit, just the randomness of the dice and how often the monk rolls a critical hit.
What do you think?
Master Arminas
Honestly?
Makes it less useful than it is now.
Only kicking in on a crit means for most of your adventuring career, you have a 1 in 20 chance (5%) of having the opportunity to use it, and even then you have to confirm the crit. Then, they get a save on top of that, and for the typical adventurers career, the save DC will be lower than if they used the ability as it is currently written.
So, it can potentially trigger an unlimited amount of times, but it's actual odds of ever being used is lowered vastly.
Sorry MA, I think this one needs to go back to the drawing board for a rework.
What I like:
- the simplicity
- being staggered if the save was successful
What I don't like:
- criticals for unarmed attacks have too low odds to be relevant (that's a show stopper)
- dropping the special conditions available at later levels
Not sure yet, whether I like it:
- basing the DC on 10 + BAB
Maybe if monks would get a threat on 19-20 (while still being able to double that range with the appropriate feat) it might become viable.
Honestly?
Makes it less useful than it is now.
Only kicking in on a crit means for most of your adventuring career, you have a 1 in 20 chance (5%) of having the opportunity to use it, and even then you have to confirm the crit. Then, they get a save on top of that, and for the typical adventurers career, the save DC will be lower than if they used the ability as it is currently written.
So, it can potentially trigger an unlimited amount of times, but it's actual odds of ever being used is lowered vastly.
Sorry MA, I think this one needs to go back to the drawing board for a rework.
They get a save, but the effect isn't negated on a save: the target is still staggered. And yes, the save DC is less because you are not adding Wisdom.
Right now, with an 16 Wisdom at level 1, and adding a +2 headband at 6th level, +4 headband at 11th level, and a +6 headband at 14th level, a monk's stunning fist DC looks like this (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Wisdom)(level up ability scores will probably be put in Strength):
1st: 13
4th: 14
6th: 16
8th: 17
10th: 18
11th: 19
12th: 20
14th: 22
16th: 23
18th: 24
20th: 26
How would the DCs look for this option (DC 10 + BAB)? The first number is for the monk's normal BAB, the second is for flurry of blows.
1st: 10/11
2nd: 11/12
3rd: 12/13
4th: 13/14
5th: 13/15
6th: 14/16
7th: 15/17
8th: 16/18
9th: 16/19
10th: 17/20
11th: 18/21
12th: 19/22
13th: 19/23
14th: 20/24
15th: 21/25
16th: 22/26
17th: 22/27
18th: 23/28
19th: 24/29
20th: 25/30
The PF monk has a DC 1 point higher at nearly every level against a monk who uses a standard action to attack (moving, charging, spring attack, attack of opportunity, etc.). BUT, against the flurry monk, that changes. 1st and 2nd level he is behind, but equal at 3rd and 4th. Ahead at 5th, even at 6th, and then the Stunning Strike DC takes the lead from 7th and up. And you can always add Ability Focus to Stunning Strike to raise the DC by 2 more.
MA
Would it change if Stunning Strike activated even on a possible crit (i.e., roll a natural 20 on attack roll, fail to confirm, but Stunning Strike still goes off?). Or would that be too much?
MA
I think it's interesting. Very interesting, actually, but that's because I like things happening on a critical hit. Most people, I find, just want extra damage.
EDITED:
Stunning Strike (Ex): At 1st level, when the monk is attacking with his unarmed strike and scores a crical threat against an opponent (whether or not he confirms that critical threat), he is able to momentarily incapacitate or hinder his opponent. If the opponent suffers any hit point damage from the attack, he must make a Fortitude saving throw with a DC equal to 10 + the monk's base attack bonus. A monk attacking with his flurry of blows special ability (see above) uses his effective base attack bonus for flurry of blows for this DC.
If the opponent fails this saving throw, then he is stunned for 1 round. If the opponent is successful on this saving throw, he is instead staggered for one round.
The effects of this ability do not stack, nor do they extend the duration of the stagger or the stun beyond 1 round, regardless of how many successful critical hits the monk might land in a single turn. However, the creature must save versus each successful critical hit and is stunned if he fails his saving throw against any of these. Otherwise the creature is staggered.
If a monk attacks multiple opponents in the same round, and rolls a critical threat against two or more of them, each opponent must save or be affected as described above.
Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned or staggered by this class ability.
A stunned opponent cannot take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes an additional -2 penalty to AC.
A staggered opponent may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take swift and immediate actions.
I bolded the part that I changed. Having the ability activate on a natural 20 (because that is what the unarmed strike threat range is) is certainly a low-odds chance. BUT, the monk gets multiple attacks at every level, eventually exceeding even a Two-Weapon Fighter. Think about it . . . sure, the odds of getting a Natural 20 on any single attack is only 5% (random d20 roll, getting a 20). But if you are making two attacks, you double your chances. Three, you triple them. And so on, until you are making 7-8 attacks a high level, possibly as many as 11 with Medusa's Wrath and haste.
How many attacks does a monk player normally make in any one gaming session? Enough that they might get one or two successful critical hits? In my view, that is enough to make the player happy. When he rolls that natural 20 (or a 19 or 20 once he picks up Improved Critical), it means something more than just more damage. It makes his day that he landed the perfect strike and set up his foe for his friends to unleash the beat-down on.
I think this will work.
MA
MA, the point is it doesn't kick in enough, and the way you factored the saves as is is a little off. Assuming a 16 Wis at first level, and having an actual reason for boosting Wis, the range at 20 goes from 26 (nothing but a headband) to 31 (headband, +5 inherent, +5 level up), so there is variability. That being said, I don't really have a huge issue with the save DC being BAB based, other than it makes solving the monk MAD issue slightly more complicated.
Having staggered on a failed save is borderline overpowered, its only saving grace is that, right now, a monk will see a crit less than 5% of the time, which is the actual problem with this idea. If it was usable more often, you've basically created a situation where even if you do save your sucking wind. Think about it not just from "would this be cool as a player" to "If I am DMing, and sic one of these per PC on the group, am I going to generate a TPK?" Right now, as it is written, no, because it only kicks in randomly, on average 5% of the time. But assume it did kick in, against all 4 PC's, even if they make their saves, they are limited in what they can do, and are set up for at least a round of pure pain while they get wailed on, and hopefully not stunned.
Right now, stunning fist can be useful at low levels, but as you level up and get more uses, it doesn't scale in usefulness.
With what your proposing, there is only one way to make it more reliable (Improved Critical), and monks don't get access to that until 11th level.
That is a little late game for it to become even mildy feasable.
So, yes, I'd suggest some rewriting to make it a little more reliable (class features that aren't reliable are just wasted ink, that is one of the big monk issues right now, you know this), and a little more in line with other, similar abilities.
Rolling a natural 20 is the problem.
This is basically stunning critical, but with a shorter duration. Would you be able to use keen ki focus monk weapons to stun more often?
This is basically stunning critical, but with a shorter duration. Would you be able to use keen ki focus monk weapons to stun more often?
Yes. But those are +2 equivalent and thus will not be available prior to 8th level if using the 'balanced' approach in the WBL guidelines. And (with the exception of the temple sword), all of them have the same critical threat range and multiplier as unarmed strikes: 20/x2.
MA
Rolling a natural 20 is the problem.
Sure, but landing a successful stunning fist isn't already? Look at it like this: if you are a 4th level monk, you get two attacks, with a possible third by spending 1 point of ki. Each of those attacks has the possibility of rolling a critical threat: a natural 20. With his greater number of attacks, a monk is more likely to roll at least one natural 20 each session.
I am going to have to test this with my players and see how well it works.
MA
This is basically stunning critical, but with a shorter duration. Would you be able to use keen ki focus monk weapons to stun more often?Yes. But those are +2 equivalent and thus will not be available prior to 8th level if using the 'balanced' approach in the WBL guidelines. And (with the exception of the temple sword), all of them have the same critical threat range and multiplier as unarmed strikes: 20/x2.
MA
Looks like you covered it in the original post and I missed it. Sorry about that.
I think the cestus is 19-20 as well, but the in the strongest scenario we're looking at threats on a 17-20. It could be powerful early in the game, but it will get overshadowed once the fighter starts getting into the critical feats. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
I think a few style feats add a use of stunning fist, but that's no biggie.
It would be cool flavor if you could expend a use of elemental fist to trigger the stun on a hit, provided that you're using it to deal electricity damage. That may actually be too strong though. Maybe let it boost the save DC a little instead.
And actually I goofed. A keen, ki focus, weapon would have to have a +1 enhancement bonus first, so it would be a +3 equivalent . . . meaning it doesn't come into play before 11th level, using the WBL balanced guidelines (no more than 25% of wealth on a single item; 18,000 gp cost vs. 82,000 gp total wealth). By this time, the monk should have Improved Critical as a feat, either bonus or as his 11th level feat.
MA
Rolling a natural 20 is the problem.Sure, but landing a successful stunning fist isn't already? Look at it like this: if you are a 4th level monk, you get two attacks, with a possible third by spending 1 point of ki. Each of those attacks has the possibility of rolling a critical threat: a natural 20. With his greater number of attacks, a monk is more likely to roll at least one natural 20 each session.
Stunning fist: p_hit * p_save => stunned
Stunning strike: approx. n * 0.05 * p_hit => at least staggered (n = number of attacks; the probability is an approximation for small n and is worse if calculated correctly, but it is easier to compare with)Therefore for p_save > 0.05 * n Stunning fist is better than Stunning strike.
For n = 2 (monk level 4) this means that even if the opponent has a fortitude save of 3+, i.e. is failing only in one of ten cases, Stunning fist is at least as good as Stunning strike in producing a result (stun or staggering).
The picture would improve if a monk's unarmed strike would have a threat range of 19-20 but I'm not sure if it would be enough. Not requiring to confirm would help more but feel bad.