Could the armorless Paladin be a fun character to play?


Advice


Specifically a Paladin/Monk/Champion of Irori?

Some of the most fun Monk archetypes wouldn't (by RAW at least) qualify (Zen Archer doesn't have the Still Mind class feature so can't enter the Champion of Irori class) and any Archetype that gives up Stunning Fist would also lose out (though a DM might rule that such archetypes would get the prestige class stacking for those alt-features instead)

But the basic concept seems like it could be a really interesting one - though a Paladin w/o armor seems fairly unusual.

A few thoughts:

- are there any archetypes of the Paladin (and/or Oaths) that would be particularly useful for this prestige class? (in particular since the prestige class doesn't allow for a mount archetypes or choices other than for a mount seem useful to explore)

- how exactly does the Champion of Irori's ki pool function? Does he end up with TWO ki pools? (one monk, one champion of Irori) if he has enough levels in monk to get the monk pool? If he doesn't does he still add in any levels in monk that he has to calculate the size of his ki pool?

- what level(s) would you suggest for this character? i.e. it takes at least 5 levels to qualify. It seems, however, that it might also make some sense to have a level or two potentially in a third class to help with that qualifying (2 levels of Ninja for example would give 16 + 2xInt skill points plus a ki pool - unclear what happens if you choose CHA for that pool then WIS for the Champion of Irori pool. Sounds a bit strange potentially (a LG ninja) but might also be fairly fun to play.

- what race(s) would you suggest? Aasimar comes to mind since WIS & CHA are important for this character but there are likely many other great options to consider.

- how would you stat out such a character? Seems like it could be really MAD and I suspect a high WIS could be really important (for AC), but a high CHA might be good for Divine Grace, lay on hands etc.

anyway seems like it might be fun...


While I can see the inspiration for playing this character and envision the backstory, the class features of champion of irori seem a little flat. Seems like you might be better off starting with paladin and multiclassing into monk after you gain the divine bond class feature. You may have to get creative with the backstory but otherwise a smiting monk could be pretty tough.


As far as stats...I'd go high STR, WIS, CHA, then DEX. The WIS may not help you at first with a Paladin but would be very beneficial once the Monk levels kicked in. INT would be your dump stat which would also take some creativeness with the backstory but would make for a fun role play. While CON is beneficial for any character, staying at 10 wouldn't be terrible.


Why high STR? Dex would help with AC and I think unarmed strikes are finesseable (need to check but they count as natural attacks which are)

Divine bond is actually the question - what would this character use as a divine bond? I'm thinking perhaps an archetype that offers alternatives? Or perhaps a monk weapon? (Which you could flurry with but might be less effective than unarmed strikes?)


This thread title reminds me of a character I was going to play. Paladin / Oracle (wind) who wears no armor.


Rycaut wrote:

Why high STR? Dex would help with AC and I think unarmed strikes are finesseable (need to check but they count as natural attacks which are)

Divine bond is actually the question - what would this character use as a divine bond? I'm thinking perhaps an archetype that offers alternatives? Or perhaps a monk weapon? (Which you could flurry with but might be less effective than unarmed strikes?)

I figured high STR because for the first few levels without Monk you'd want the STR for additional DMG. DEX is good for AC but after taking Monk you'll get to add your WIS mod to your AC and you'll want a decent WIS mod for a higher stunning fist DC. Weapon Finesse is nice but if you just keep your STR for ATT and DMG you can take another, even more usable feat.


I'm thinking a MoMS/Holy Gun combo (take a 1-h gun) with Crane/Snake combo styles coupled with the feat that lets you make AoO with ranged weapons (Snap Shot, iirc?). Dump Str in favor of a Dex>Wis>Cha build. Aasamar might be a good choice for stats, but Human's extra feat to start could also be a boon. Depends on what you value/suits your play-style more.


JJ has noted the ki pools for Monk and CoI have their final total added, not Monk and CoI levels added, then halved+wis or Monk/2+CoI/2+Wis

Minimal wisdom (10, 7 if your GM rules you have a minimum ki pool size of 1 or 0) is an option, even if you can't keep your flurry/AC bonus in armor with Sohei as has been unoffically stated. For Flurry you are already full BAB minus 1 and if playing with some of the stupider dev statements, its worse than worthless. AC bonus isn't all that big and you have full armor proficiencies. Your will save is sky high from 3 classes that boost it, still mind AND divine grace, so not a problem. Stunning Fist is easy to trade for non-wisdom dependent things

Take Monastic Legacy and make CoI levels count as 1.5 levels of Monk for unarmed strike progression, plus get some stuff out of your paladin level. Will result in books to the head

Shadow Lodge

Not really familiar with the prestige class, but here's my thoughts.

Yes, an unarmoured Paladin can work if you do it right. It would definitely be fun to play.

Rycaut wrote:
- are there any archetypes of the Paladin (and/or Oaths) that would be particularly useful for this prestige class? (in particular since the prestige class doesn't allow for a mount archetypes or choices other than for a mount seem useful to explore)

I'd go standard Paladin since you don't want to give up Smite Evil (which improves with the prestige class) and you'll want to Divine Bond with your weapon if you get that far with Paladin. I don't see why you can't Divine Bond your fist. As a monk, it counts as a weapon. I'd also avoid picking any monk archetypes that drop Champion of Irori features like Flurry or Stunning Fist.

Rycaut wrote:
- what level(s) would you suggest for this character? i.e. it takes at least 5 levels to qualify. It seems, however, that it might also make some sense to have a level or two potentially in a third class to help with that qualifying (2 levels of Ninja for example would give 16 + 2xInt skill points plus a ki pool - unclear what happens if you choose CHA for that pool then WIS for the Champion of Irori pool. Sounds a bit strange potentially (a LG ninja) but might also be fairly fun to play.

You need at least 1 level Paladin and 3 levels monk. If you can manage a decent Cha, I'd go Paladin 2 / Monk 3 for Divine Grace (and Lay on Hands d6 1+Cha times a day isn't bad). You could put a few more levels into Paladin if you want. Aura of Courage and Divine Health give nice immunities and Divine Bond is very nice if you can boost your fist and save on AoMF. I wouldn't complicate it with a fourth class.

Rycaut wrote:
- what race(s) would you suggest? Aasimar comes to mind since WIS & CHA are important for this character but there are likely many other great options to consider.

Aasimar has good stats, but the human feat is always nice, and if you dump Int you might want the extra skill points. The only other race I'd consider is Tengu. They get a Dex and Wis bonus, the extra languages with Linquistics would be neat for this character, and the Exotic Weapon Training alternate trait would let you pick up extra finesse flurry weapons, like the Jutte or the Butterfly Sword.

Ryucaut wrote:
- how would you stat out such a character? Seems like it could be really MAD and I suspect a high WIS could be really important (for AC), but a high CHA might be good for Divine Grace, lay on hands etc.

For build, I'd go Dex-based to minimize the MAD. Dex and Wis for high AC and to-hit > high Cha for saves and Smite to-hit > Con for HP, average strength > Int. (I think you can roleplay enlightened high Wis low Int with a Tao philosphy...)


The problem with a low int is the requirements for Champion of Irori are 5 ranks in Knowledge religion and 5 ranks in other knowledges or linguistics. So it takes at least 5 levels - and if those are all 2+int classes even if you were a half elf with two favored classes it would mean no ranks in any other skills. Perhaps a level or two of ninja or lore warden fighter would give more skill ranks and some other abilities and options. (Either three feats or sneak attack and more ki pool plus a ninja trick)


Potions of Mage Armor should help early to mid game. Maybe a wand if you have decent charisma and pump UMD. Also a wand of Shield might be worthwhile with UMD.


Unless this character takes a third class (Ninja/Bard etc) he won't have any skill ranks to spare for things like UMD)

But in a the right party he could certainly benefit from Mage Armor (for the nice long duration) and occasionally other buffs like Shield.

Shadow Lodge

Monks get 4 skill ranks per level. If you have 8 Int and play a human (with bonus skill ranks) you will get 4 ranks for 2 levels of Paladin, 12 from 3 levels of Monk, and 2-3 from favoured class benefits. With 10 ranks for prerequisites, that's 8-9 ranks for other skills. Then once you get into Champion of Irori you again get 4 ranks per level, and don't have to spend any of it on Knowledge skills.

It's not generous, but you can go into the PrC with two non-knowledge skills just under max, or one maxed and 3-4 with one rank. Once in the PrC you get a little more flexibility.


But if I choose a race other than human I'd only have 13-14 ranks to apply (slightly more if a half elf with two favored classes - assuming an 8 int)

I think if I do this character it would probably be for PFS play and I would probably both take a level of another class with lots of skill ranks (ninja for example or possibly bard) and probably not dump INT. In PFS play I wouldn't be able to max out the prestige class most likely (reaching level 15-16 is unlikely) so it is more levels 1-10 that I care most about. A paladin monk (possibly also a ninja) seems like it could be a very distinctive character to play (perhaps focused on dealing non-lethal damage most of the time?)

It does make me wonder if you can divine bond your unarmed strikes (and how flurry would then work with them)

Shadow Lodge

Having four classes would confuse the heck out of me, but if you want more skills go ahead and put a level in ninja. I don't think bard would work as well as a dip.

I'm not an expert on PFS play, but Divine Bond says "The first type of bond allows the paladin to enhance her weapon as a standard action" and under Monk, "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." I would therefore expect that a Divine Bond can be applied at least to a monk's unarmed strikes and probably to unarmed strikes in general.

Given the recent ruling on Flurry and TWF, I would expect that the Divine Bond would only affect one fist and wouldn't apply to the extra 1-3 attacks made while flurrying. And unfortunately, I don't see any feat that lets a TWF Paladin Divine Bond both weapons (nor would a Paladin/Monk easily be able to qualify, since Monks only Flurry "as if" using TWF and don't actually get the feat).

EDIT: Apparently the issue of Flurry is now "under review" due to inconsistency in its use in Paizo products. So no clear answer on whether you get the bonus for all strikes or not.

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