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This new item from ultimate equipment has me thinking..
This ring comes in four types: ring of spell knowledge I, ring of spell knowledge II, ring of spell knowledge III, and ring of spell knowledge IV. All of them are useful only to spontaneous arcane spellcasters. Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level. A ring of spell knowledge I can hold 1st-level spells only, a ring of spell knowledge II 1st- or 2nd-level spells, a ring of spell knowledge III spells of 3rd level or lower, and a ring of spell knowledge IV up to 4th-level spells.
A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer’s class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage
Couldnt as sorc just carry around a bunch of utility scrolls, such as invisibility, web, levitate and the like, and when he needs them, pull them out, put the spell in the ring, and cast as needed? It doesnt use up the scroll, so you'd only need a single one of each spell you wanted. and it doesnt take a long time to put it in. Just means that a sorc can literally have any spell of first through fourth level on their spell list. I'm right in how i'm seeing this, yes? My kobold sorc in our age of worms game will be making liberal use of this to become extremely useful to the party.
That's how I'm reading it to. Also, pay attention to the other conditions too, active or cast. As I'm reading it, if someone casts a spell on you, and you save, it misses, whatever, and you identified it? You can make a DC 20 Spellcraft check and put it in the ring. Now you can cast it right back at them, as long as it fits in the ring.
Couldnt as sorc just carry around a bunch of utility scrolls, such as invisibility, web, levitate and the like, and when he needs them, pull them out, put the spell in the ring, and cast as needed?
Does a wizard's spellbook count as a "written version"? If so, that's probably even more economical.
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The question is, once a spell is taught to the ring, can it be un-taught?
The question is, once a spell is taught to the ring, can it be un-taught?
I would also wonder how long it takes to "switch" spells as well.
But as written, it looks like the Xavier319's idea would work.
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Did the OP not post the full text? I'm not seeing where the ring can only know one spell...
EDIT: Nevermind, I'm blind and/or illiterate. It was right in front of me. Carry on. :P
I misread it in the exact same way when I first saw it.
It's still a really nice, borderline must-have ring for a sorcerer, summoner, or bard.
No reason to limit it to utility. Switch it out to combat spells when you don't need utlity magic for the near future.
Now just to be sure I understand this item. It is allowing you to have access to one more spell, but not cast an additional spell, right? In other words it is not increasing your daily aloghtment of casting in and of itself. Do I have that right?
that is correct. any spell stored in the item, is added to your list of spells known.Don't forget the Page of Spell Knowledge which does exactly the same thing but with one specific spell.
I don't think it's exactly the same; the ring allows you to cherry-pick spells from other (arcane) spell lists as well.
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It doesn't actually say that you can unlearn anything from the ring, though. Given this, unless a dev chimes in on it, I am inclined to assume (sadly) that the first spell chosen will in fact stick permanently.
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It doesn't actually say that you can unlearn anything from the ring, though. Given this, unless a dev chimes in on it, I am inclined to assume (sadly) that the first spell chosen will in fact stick permanently.
If that were true, wouldn't the entry at least say something about what spell you might find already in the ring when you find it? Why would we assume every one found was "clean" and waiting for the PC to use it?
It doesn't actually say that you can unlearn anything from the ring, though. Given this, unless a dev chimes in on it, I am inclined to assume (sadly) that the first spell chosen will in fact stick permanently.
If that was the case then the ring would be fairly worthless. Everyone would just get pages of spell knowledge instead.
It doesn't actually say that you can unlearn anything from the ring, though. Given this, unless a dev chimes in on it, I am inclined to assume (sadly) that the first spell chosen will in fact stick permanently.
That's true, however, read closely, and the ring repeatedly references multiple spells in the first paragragh (Ring type I holds 1st level spells etc.) whereas they normally say something like "A Ring of Spell Knowledge I can hold a single 1st level spell."
I'm inclined to believe the spell in the ring can be overwritten by the wearer.
It doesn't actually say that you can unlearn anything from the ring, though. Given this, unless a dev chimes in on it, I am inclined to assume (sadly) that the first spell chosen will in fact stick permanently.If that was the case then the ring would be fairly worthless. Everyone would just get pages of spell knowledge instead.
Speaking of which -- What are the relative prices of rings of spell knowledge and pages of spell knowledge?
The page of spell knowledge has the major advantage of being slotless, so it ought to cost more unless the ring has major advantages over the page. So far for the ring we have the ability for it to store spells that are not on your class spell list (definite) and the ability to overwrite the previously stored spell (debatable).
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It doesn't actually say that you can unlearn anything from the ring, though. Given this, unless a dev chimes in on it, I am inclined to assume (sadly) that the first spell chosen will in fact stick permanently.If that was the case then the ring would be fairly worthless. Everyone would just get pages of spell knowledge instead.Speaking of which -- What are the relative prices of rings of spell knowledge and pages of spell knowledge?
The page of spell knowledge has the major advantage of being slotless, so it ought to cost more unless the ring has major advantages over the page. So far for the ring we have the ability for it to store spells that are not on your class spell list (definite) and the ability to overwrite the previously stored spell (debatable).
The page of spell knowledge is a little cheaper than the ring:
Page of Spell Knowledge:
1st-level 1,000 GP
2nd-level 4,000 GP
3rd-level 9,000 GP
4th-level 16,000 GP
5th-level 25,000 GP
6th-level 36,000 GP
7th-level 49,000 GP
8th-level 64,000 GP
9th-level 81,000 gp
Ring of Spell Knowledge:
Type I 1,500 GP, (only 1st level spells)
Type II 6,000 GP, (up to 2nd level)
Type III 13,500 GP, (up to 3rd level)
Type IV 24,000 GP (up to 4th level)
The biggest differences here are that pages go up to 9th level spells, where rings only let you store up to 4th level spells, and pages can only be from your own spell list to be used, whereas the ring can let you cast a spell from another list (treating it as one level higher).
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Every general rule about learning spells from a scroll means that the scroll gets used up. There is no exemption from this rule in the item description. So yes, when you teach the ring the spell, the scroll gets burned as the price of doing so.
it doesnt say that the spell is used up my friend. Would that mean that when you take it from a spellbook it's used up? All it says is you have to study the spell. scrolls dont get used up when you read them, they get used up when you CAST them. and it says nothing about you having to cast the spell into the ring in order to store the spell in it.
What is the TOTAL spell capacity (no of spells) it can hold at once?
If a ring for example could hold 5, 1st level spells it would be heaps better than pages.
The CROSSBLOODED DRACONIC/ORC bloodline sorcerer just became OMG!
No longer have to have delayed spell access!
It can only hold 1 spell at a time. Period. A Type IV ring can hold any spell for 1st to 4th, but only one spell. But the thing is, if someone casts a new spell on you, you could teach the spell to the ring, and then cast it yourself, if it fell into that range.
It says a single spell, so the limit is 1.
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General rule for learning spells from scrolls means that the spell gets used up. UNLESS the items says that this DOES not happen in it's text, than that rule applies.
Where is this general rule? I know a couple of classes specify it, but if it was a general rule, it would be somewhere else, and I wasn't aware that it is.
Those "couple of classes" are every arcane class that uses prepared casting and records spells in a spellbook/familliar/whathaveyou. That qualifies it as a general rule, and the rule that's most applicable to this question. It also keeps this item under sane limits of control.General rule for learning spells from scrolls means that the spell gets used up. UNLESS the items says that this DOES not happen in it's text, than that rule applies.Where is this general rule? I know a couple of classes specify it, but if it was a general rule, it would be somewhere else, and I wasn't aware that it is.
Those classes all deal with prepared casters adding to their pools. This is completely different. It's class features versus magic items. Prepared versus spontaneous. Apples versus Oranges.
A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring.
Identify a spell as it is being cast 15 + spell level
Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll 15 + spell level
Prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook 15 + spell level
Identify the properties of a magic item using detect magic 15 + item's caster level
Decipher a scroll 20 + spell level
Craft a magic item Varies by item
Decipher the Writing: The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). Deciphering a scroll is a full-round action.
Deciphering a scroll to determine its contents does not activate its magic unless it is a specially prepared cursed scroll. A character can decipher the writing on a scroll in advance so that she can proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use the scroll.
So following the item's description (specific rule), you make a DC 20 Spellcraft check. There is nothing about activating magic scrolls. Looking at Spellcraft, the closest application is "Decipher a scroll". Switching to Scrolls themselves, it clearly state deciphering the scroll does not activate it.
The only language about destroying a scroll comes from the section about adding to a Wizard's spellbook. That is in no way a general rule.
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While copying a scroll (say into a wizard's spellbook) does indeed use up the scroll, the mechanics regarding the ring's ability to "learn" via an "encounter" is not as clear. As far as doing so as a limitation? This is easily dodged by purchasing spellbooks as opposed to scrolls. Heck, it is even cheaper to buy/copy spells in spellbook form than it is in scroll form.
While copying a scroll (say into a wizard's spellbook) does indeed use up the scroll, the mechanics regarding the ring's ability to "learn" via an "encounter" is not as clear.
The whole blurb is unclear. Can you replace the spell once it's filled? What action does it take to fill the ring? What counts as a "written version" of a spell? Does it use up a scroll if you learn it from a scroll? Etc.
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Save that the spellbook dodge has a few problems.
1. Finding a wizard willing to sell a spellbook. They don't grow on trees.
2. Sorcerers do not have a mechanic for learning spells from a spellbook. Because they don't learn spells they acquire them intuitively on leveling up.
3. There is no such thing as a divine spellbook.
1. Not all spellbooks are acquired by buying them. There are many ways a sorcerer can get himself a spellbook. And they usually aren't willing, you are right. ;)
One way, of course, would be if the party happens to contain a wizard as well... duplicating a spellbook is easily done.
Regardless, according to the rules, purchasing spellbooks can be done. If you can sell them, someone is buying them. And then so can you. The difficulty/availability is determined by your own personal campaign world and the decisions you make therein.
2. I am familiar with how sorcerers learn spells. :) We are, however, discussing how the ring learns, and how the sorcerer may acquire a vast and permanent library of spells for it to use. I would also point out that Read Magic is a sorcerer spell, they can use written spells (ie scrolls) and can craft scrolls if they wish to take the feat. Written spells do not seem to be a problem for them. ;)
3. No argument here. :)
EDIT: Additional comment stricken as requested. :)
Cheers
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I think the most pertinent question with regards to the mechanics of the ring is what action or time is required to load the spell into the ring.
Does "study" require a spellcraft check? Each time? Is it more difficult if one is only seeing a spell as it is cast? etc etc.
I believe the ring is intended to be able to have spells swapped in and out. The scroll thing is definitely up for debate... and I would be fine with whichever way it was ruled. Game balance is the key though.
Cheers
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If it takes something like 8 hours of study to implant the spell in the ring, it would be fairly well balanced. You'd be able to swap it around in down-time, but not change it on the fly during an adventure.
Re the scrolls: identifying what the scroll is might just be reading the title rather than studying the whole thing. But yeah; lots of FAQ around this one.
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This ring comes in four types: ring of spell knowledge I, ring of spell knowledge II, ring of spell knowledge III, and ring of spell knowledge IV. All of them are useful only to spontaneous arcane spellcasters. Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level. A ring of spell knowledge I can hold 1st-level spells only, a ring of spell knowledge II 1st- or 2nd-level spells, a ring of spell knowledge III spells of 3rd level or lower, and a ring of spell knowledge IV up to 4th-level spells.
A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer’s class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
There are several unclear points:
"the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring."
a) Nowhere it state what kind of action or the length of time needed to teach a spell to the ring.
b) No time limit for teaching the spell after "encountering" it. As you can (apparently) teach the ring a immediate spell you aren't forced to teach it the spell as it is cast or as you are witnessing its effect.
So, there is any time limit?
As I read it there is a good basis to say that you need to have encountered a spell once in your past and you can try to teach it to the ring.
c) While the intent is clear, it should work only with arcane spells, the description is lacking. Again there is the possibility to argue that nothing stop you from teaching it a divine spell.
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Spontaneous spellcaster are so weak that there was the need to add 3 different items that allow them to get more spells?
Taken together with all the options for extra spells the versatility advantage of the wizards is becoming a myth.
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If it takes something like 8 hours of study to implant the spell in the ring, it would be fairly well balanced. You'd be able to swap it around in down-time, but not change it on the fly during an adventure.
Re the scrolls: identifying what the scroll is might just be reading the title rather than studying the whole thing. But yeah; lots of FAQ around this one.
Decipher the Writing: The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). Deciphering a scroll is a full-round action.Deciphering a scroll to determine its contents does not activate its magic unless it is a specially prepared cursed scroll. A character can decipher the writing on a scroll in advance so that she can proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use the scroll.
You need to read the scroll to decipher it, there are no handy titles on hem.
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Spontaneous spellcaster are so weak that there was the need to add 3 different items that...
Lets not start that debate in this thread. :)
Suffice it to say that the addition of items for both wizards and sorcerers only blurs the distinction between the two. You have always been able to spend coin on items (ie scrolls, potions, wands, pearls of power etc) to circumvent class restrictions. These items are just the latest ones.
The bottom line is, this particular item requires a significant amount of adjudication when used in game. That tells me that the item requires attention/clarification. Nothing more, nothing less... :)
Cheers
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Taken together with all the options for extra spells the versatility advantage of the wizards is becoming a myth.Sorcerers became more versatile than wizards when Paragon Surge was introduced. This just compounds the problem.
however.. not all sorcs are half-elves. only the ones that want to min-max. and honestly, paragon surge is good, but not universe ending.
Taken together with all the options for extra spells the versatility advantage of the wizards is becoming a myth.
Umm I'm not sure what you mean by "becoming", it's been that way for quite some time. I do realize that will probably rile up the Sorcerer lovers, but I've had a bad day, and I want to laugh hysterically when one of them tries to say being able to add any metamagic feat to any spell at any time is a limitation.
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Sorcs and wizards have their own advantages and disadvantages. Some shine in one area, others shine in other areas. It's not a clear-cut who is more powerful in general anymore, which I like. I'm a wizard-lover myself, just so you know. But it's nice that Sorcs arent the red-headed step children of arcane casters now.
Sorcs and wizards have their own advantages and disadvantages. Some shine in one area, others shine in other areas. It's not a clear-cut who is more powerful in general anymore, which I like. I'm a wizard-lover myself, just so you know. But it's nice that Sorcs arent the red-headed step children of arcane casters now.
I feel they've more and more "float together" since 3.x. The spells/day advantage was always so-and-so compared to a specialist wizard with pearls of power, and the "adjusting to a new scenario" advantage of a sorcerer was infinitely smaller after the Wizard got his bonded object. The reduced harshness of opposed schools from 3.x also helped the wizard.
So when PF was released i kinda felt like the wiz had nearly all the advantages of sorcs barring good cha-scores. Now the sorcerer has an option for int-based casting, has gotten much of the versatility of the wizard; zes spells known aren't nearly as bad as before after the human and half-elf racial fc bonuses, and are further helped by the spell pages and such.
I feel they're very similar in how they're played, although Paizo did a good job in making them different fluff-wise. I think wizard still has the upper hand on knowledges, while the sorcerer is a little easier to multiclass (due to many working casting stats). But the difference isn't large.