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Hi all.
Sorry of I have missed this somewhere else. This came up in a game recently, and was wondering if there is any clarity on it:-
Spell:- Hydraulic Push
You call forth a quick blast of water that knocks over and soaks
one creature or square. You can use this blast of water to make
a bull rush against any one creature or object. Your CMB for
this bull rush is equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence,
Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest. This
bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Hydraulic
push extinguishes any normal fires on a creature, object, or
in a single 5-foot square which it is targeted against. Magical
fires are unaffected.
Now... the rules for Bull Rush take account of the size of the creature doing the pushing (i.e. you can only Bull Rush a creature up to one size larger than you).
Ok - so, we have a gnome casting Hydraulic Push (and thus trying to Bull Rush), trying to affect a Large creature. Should it work? The gnome (by herself) could not (she is classed as small). However..... what size is the spell classed as? If it is also classed as small, then it means that a given spell becomes more effective simply because the caster is larger. If cast by a human sized caster, it would work. As far as I can tell, the implication of this would be that because of your size, you could cast better spells.
In the end, I simply declared that unless a spell specified otherwise, it should be classed as "medium" - and thus allowed the Bull's Rush attempt (besides - it was rule of cool - she was trying to push a big bad over a cliff, and it looked really good).
However - was wondering - is there anything "official" on this?
Cheers
Aiddar
The spell is unclear in several ways - for example if it can push something farther than 5 ft (considering it only can extinguish stuff in a 5 ft square it seems counterintuitive that it can push something 20 ft), or if it can push several creatures at once.
I think by _RAW_, it does use the size of the caster... I don't think it's intended though.
The RAW is clear, but it's probably not as intended; using a water blast that can't put out a larger campfire to knock the tarrasque away feels weird, to say the least.
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The RAW is clear, but it's probably not as intended; using a water blast that can't put out a larger campfire to knock the tarrasque away feels weird, to say the least.
I doubt you're going to beat the tarrasque's CMD of 66.
The balance here is you do not get a size mod, and still have to beat their CMD to be affected.
The RAW is clear, but it's probably not as intended; using a water blast that can't put out a larger campfire to knock the tarrasque away feels weird, to say the least.I doubt you're going to beat the tarrasque's CMD of 66.
The balance here is you do not get a size mod, and still have to beat their CMD to be affected.
Fair enough, but still, it does feel weird.
And it's still weird if you can push like five goblins back like 15 feet with a good roll, and it still only affects a 5-ft area.
It's a weird spell in that, I'd have preferred if it was clearer, but I agree it probably works as intended in regards to size.
EDIT; Wait, by RAW it DOES use the size of the caster (since it says "You can use this blast of water to make a bull rush" rather than "this spell makes a bull rush"). So a gnome can't use it on an ogre. But since one does not apply a size mod to it, larger creatures are harder to BR. Makes sense.
Thanks for all the replies - appreciated.
I think for me, the key element is that a Bull Rush can only be performed on creatures that are up to 1 size class larger.... Note that it is the water that is Bull Rushing the opponent, not the caster!
As such, a Gnome cannot use this spell to Bull Rush an Ogre.... but a human could? The implication being that being larger makes you a better caster.
I think at the end of the day, as there is nothing official in this, I will stay within my comfort zone and label it as "Medium" from now on, and go from there :-)
Cheers
Aiddar
A gnome can bull rush an ogre with this spell.
This spell is a specific trump to a general rule of bull rush. As written it can effect any creature, even a Pixie could bull rush an Ogre with this spell, if it beat the Ogre's CMD anyway.
No, it can't. Nothing in the spell says it overrides the general rules of bull rush, except for allowing you to do one at range. Note that it does NOT say "this spell bull rushes an enemy" but that "You can use this blast of water to make a bull rush".
This is further strengthened by the fact that it has to write out that it does not cause attacks of opportunity - if it overrode the general rules, it wouldn't need to spell that out.
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A gnome can bull rush an ogre with this spell.
This spell is a specific trump to a general rule of bull rush. As written it can effect any creature, even a Pixie could bull rush an Ogre with this spell, if it beat the Ogre's CMD anyway.
No, it can't. Nothing in the spell says it overrides the general rules of bull rush, except for allowing you to do one at range. Note that it does NOT say "this spell bull rushes an enemy" but that "You can use this blast of water to make a bull rush".
This is further strengthened by the fact that it has to write out that it does not cause attacks of opportunity - if it overrode the general rules, it wouldn't need to spell that out.
It is a clear modification, both in how it works, how to factor your CMB, and what it can affect.
Also, unlike Force Punch, the spell doesn't precise if you have to push the target "directly away from you". :\
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Since normal CMB is BAB + Strength modifier + special size modifier, and the spell's CMB is caster level + (highest mental Ability Score) modifier, that suggests that the size of the caster has nothing to do with the effects of the spell. As Winterwalker says, the target line tells you what it can target, and that's that - no need to overcomplicate it.
Straight back from which point, your location or the hydraulic push location? If the spell AoE was a line or a cone, or if it required a ranged touch attack, I would agree with you, but the spell affect a 5ft square.
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Winterwalker: You're correct on the targeting. I missed the "any one creature or object" line, sorry 'bout that.
Maerimydra: It pushes away from you. It's still you who is performing the bull rush so by RAW it's away from you; thematically, it isn't an area or effect spell, it's a target spell, so it makes sense it would go from you to the target.
Winterwalker: You're correct on the targeting. I missed the "any one creature or object" line, sorry 'bout that.
Maerimydra: It pushes away from you. It's still you who is performing the bull rush so by RAW it's away from you; thematically, it isn't an area or effect spell, it's a target spell, so it makes sense it would go from you to the target.
I hear you, but then it would also be the case for telekinesis, which would make the spell far less interesting. No "force pull" for spellcaster I guess.
I hear you, but then it would also be the case for telekinesis, which would make the spell far less interesting. No "force pull" for spellcaster I guess.
That's not true for telekinesis. It's only true for the bull rush part.
Sustained force and violent throw do not have specified directions and do not refer to bull rush rules. So you can, it's just that you can't target their CMD; you target their will.
Hydraulic push is a very good spell as is; it's decently powerful when you get it, keeps good far longer than most other 1st level spells, and is very versatile. Actually it's a pretty good spell to Quicken, for various reasons.
It does not need to be further increased in power beyond that of RAW.
That's not true for telekinesis. It's only true for the bull rush part
This is the part of the spell I was refering to.
Hydraulic push is a very good spell as is; it's decently powerful when you get it, keeps good far longer than most other 1st level spells, and is very versatile. Actually it's a pretty good spell to Quicken, for various reasons.
It does not need to be further increased in power beyond that of RAW.
It sure is, especially if you have an enlarged character wielding a reach weapon in your party.
That's not true for telekinesis. It's only true for the bull rush partThis is the part of the spell I was refering to.
So the only thing it does is prevent you from pushing someone towards you. You can still pull them towards you... So exactly how is this making the spell "far less interesting"? It restricts one direction of one out of like 10 different ways to use it. And the only things it prevents are such things that can be done with the spell anyway (though against some enemies you will have less chance of success).
It's how the rules work, and it's not very limiting at all.
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That's not true for telekinesis. It's only true for the bull rush partThis is the part of the spell I was refering to.So the only thing it does is prevent you from pushing someone towards you. You can still pull them towards you... So exactly how is this making the spell "far less interesting"? It restricts one direction of one out of like 10 different ways to use it. And the only things it prevents are such things that can be done with the spell anyway (though against some enemies you will have less chance of success).
It's how the rules work, and it's not very limiting at all.
It's not that limiting, but it still limiting, at least for the Combat Maneuver version of the spell, which lasts 1 round per level and can target a different creature each round. Being able to bull rush an opponent in any direction of your choice instead of just away from you would make the spell far better. Pulling the enemy caster toward the BSF so that the latter could make a full-attack action against the former is useful. Tossing an opponent into a pit that happens to be on the side of the opponent, and not behind him (from your perspective), is also useful. Now I know that the spell is still useful and that, according to RAW, you can't do what I'm suggesting, but I can't help wondering if the spell would re-written in the same way now that the APG introduced new combat maneuvers like drag, reposition and steal.