Recently started a new Pathfinder group, running the Rise of the Runelords anniversary edition. Unfortunately, had a MUCH larger turnout of players than expected, and for various reasons I can't split into 2 groups, and can't tell people they can't be a part of the group.
So now I have a group of 8. I attempted to compensate by doubling the number of creatures in the encounters, but the party still handled it easily, with the exception of a trend of horrible attack rolls. But it took too long, the opening encounter of Runelords taking close to 3 hours.
In addition to the doubling, I am using the Critical Hit deck for all monsters, and using the Critical Fumble deck on players only, and dropping the party from the fast track to medium track experience progression.
What is a better way to scale this AP to handle such a large group?
Find someone else in the group willing to DM and split it into two groups.
Seriously, I draw the line at 6 players.
8 players is a lot.
There's a certain amount you can do by streamlining combats and pre-preparation, but every pc wants a chance to interact and shine, and that generally requires DM time.
Successful 8 player games I've seen have been ones that encouraged the player-to-player role-playing aspect. How you do that in AP (except maybe Kingmaker) I don't know.
If at all possible ban summons, familiars, animal companions and cohorts. you've got enough bodies on the map as is.
This is going to be tough. The big problem is the action economy-- the party has 8 actions to a bad guy's one. You can't beef up the bad guys too much, or they'll be able to kill a PC with one blow. The obvious solution is to greatly increase bad guys' hit points, and add more mooks.., but then you run into two new problems. One is time: one round of combat will take half an hour, and beefing up hp will just make the combats longer. The other is space: a lot if the combat areas in RotRL are compact spaces, so you won't be able to get too many bad guys to fit... Unless you draw your own maps. So, between having to essentially re-design every encounter and re-drawing maps to accommodate the number of combatants you'll need, you're now doing as much work as if you we're running a homebrew campaign.
I was running RotRL with 6 PCs for quite awhile, and it was a whole lot of work to be challenging without being super-deadly. With 8, you're setting yourself up for a lot of headaches.
Good luck!
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Before 3.0, I played in and GMed for large groups of 7+ players. I know there are a lot more options for players to do with their characters than in 1st and 2nd editions, but there are a few tricks I witnessed (and subsequently stole) to keep the game moving. please note that these are just suggestions and in no way are a statement of how everyone should run their game.
1. On a players initiative, they have 10 seconds to announce their actions. If they don't, they forfeit their action.
2. Roll to hit and damage dice simultaneously
3. Make sure before the game that every character sheet has pre-calculated attack, damage, saving throw, skill, etc. bonuses so no one is trying to add the numbers up.
4. Outside of game conversations must leave the table. If you are not back in time to declare your action, you forfeit your action.
5. Roll all attacks and damage for monsters simultaneously (using different colored dice for first attack, second, third, so on. Apply damage as the action would occur. Do this with players as well. Know what tactics the monsters will use prior to the encounter.
6. Pre-plan all wandering encounters so there are no last minute rumblings on your part.
7. Copy all monster sheets so you have them immediately on hand.
8. Allow a set number of rules "challenges" kinda like in football. I suggest one per player per four hours. if the player challenges the ruling, give them two minutes to make their case, then make your ruling. All rulings are final. Explain this clearly to the players before hand and stick to it so one rules lawyer doesn't take over the game. If a player tries to argue past that point, move on to the other players.
9. Write yourself notes on the main points of each potential role play conversation with an NPC. Don't worry about a script. Just wing it.
10. Give each player one "timeout" per four hours so they can deal with a tricky situation or look up an obscure tactic. Allow them 2 minutes to figure out what they want to do.
I know there are a lot more ideas I am forgetting right now. Do expect your sessions to run long (6+ hours). As far as how to beef up the AP encounters, I bet there are a lot of people more rules savvy that can help with that. I do believe that there is quite a bit more prep for a GM of a large group, but it will pay off.
I know some of these suggestions can seem harsh, but your goal is to keep the game going so that the majority of players are having fun. If you are consistent, the players will adapt and it will make the combats go by much faster. This gives the players a lot more time to role-play.
Finally, make sure the game is fun for you as well as the players. If you are bored or frustrated, it won't be as fun for the players.
Oh, if there is alcohol at your table, try to keep it to a minimum in a large group. Drunk players invariably slow the game down.
Largely agree with what the others have said. Any kind of "battlemat" game (Pathfinder, Savage Worlds, etc.) is hard with a huge groups; encounters just take too long to resolve. And it sucks to be that party member who's going last out of the sixteen combat participants.
For a one-shot game you might be able to make it work but for playing an entire AP I don't think there is a good solution.
Large groups can work in a play-by-post format where everything is streched out anyways but around a table players are sitting doing nothing too much of the time.
...some excellent suggestions...
I'd make additional rulings to limit the number of combatants...
1) No one can take the Leadership feat.2) Don't allow the summoner class.
3) Ban all summon monster andsummon nature's ally spells from the party.
4) Don't allow familiars or animal companions: any class with one of those features has to take the alternate option.
From the game plot perspective, don't include any of the NPCs that normally go with the party (Shalelu, the Black Arrows, etc). I guess that you can include the NPCs if you want to, but they won't go adventuring with the PCs.
Another idea is to break the long-standing edict of "Don't Split the Party!" Regularly split the group into two squadrons of 4 PCs each, and send one to the left and one to the right. Or, have one group go upstairs, and the other down. Switch back and forth between the groups every half-hour of real time. This will take some juggling, but I think you all might have a better time-- you can then run the AP as-written for each squadron.
The downside is advancement-- each group will now be getting about half the XPs. There's also the problem of the boss battle-- there's usually only one of those as written. You'll need to supplement what's written with more content, including a second boss for the alternate group to fight.
But again, this will be a whole lot of work, and if you're planning to finish the whole AP, you're probably looking at 2-3 years of real-world time to complete.
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You just can't run it the same way as you do when there are fewer Players; but it's not hard. It's just a differently run game. Some of these have been mentioned, but...:
1) No Animal Companions, Familiars, Cohorts, Eidolons, Summoned Monsters, etc. Everyone gets ONE character.
2) Eliminate everything that has to do with Immediate Actions and seriously, let everyone know that Readying and Holding Actions will likely not be allowed except in extreme circumstances. When it's your turn you go. Period.
3) Don't friggen roll Initiative. Ever. Everyone sits around the table (or wherever) and for the fights you just go clockwise around the room. The DM can put objects in between folks' seats for NPCs. If Players want to sit in different chairs each night y'all can come up with a fair rotation of who sits where.
4) NO Bumps. Haste, Bears' STR & Bulls' Endr, Enlarge Person, Bards' crap, Magic Weapon and other slop that sloooooows down the game as everyone waits for one jerk that can't figure out what his total attack modifier is in under 7 hours ruins games with only 5 PCs, let alone 8+!
5) Know what you're gonna do before it's your turn in Init OR GET SKIPPED. Since you can see how many PCs go before you in Initiative by looking past your right shoulder, you should always know what you're gonna do.
6) Splitting the party results in some PCs dying immediately. No Save.
Again, some of this has been said but, really, from someone who has gamed many, many huge groups -- it can be done and it can be FUN. You just can't play it like a normal game.
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Everyone is giving excellent advice on speeding up combat, but if your group has any desire to roleplay AT ALL, don't do it.
Everyone said Kingmaker worked well for larger parties, so I had a group of up to 10 players. The combats were no problem, but the players got bored silly waiting for their turn to 'act' in noncombat situations, for lack of a better term. If I put in NPCs (Oleg and Svetlana, for example), only 2-3 of the players interacted with them, and the rest sat and waited for the conversation to end. If I waited for the characters to interact among themselves, they just sat around staring at each other. The only real entertainment was the pranking grig, where they all reacted to their pranks, but after 5-10 minutes of discussion of the pranks, they returned to an hourlong discussion of what to do next.
I managed to get it down to 8 players, and it was as if a miracle occurred; suddenly everyone was getting a chance to talk, everyone was getting a chance to DO things, and the whole mood of the table picked up a notch. It wasn't so much that those two extra players were 'problem children', but that roleplaying got choked out to the point that everyone woke up and got excited for the combats, but anything in between combats wasn't worth paying attention to. Very depressing to GM. So in my years of playing/GMing, I've never successfully worked with a group bigger than 8.
I've seen the same thing at my two other tables: The table with 3 players is much more 'roleplaying rich' than the table with 6, and the 6-person table will have at least one 30-45 minute 'choke point' where they discuss something to death per session. With 8 people, every single decision is a 'choke point', so unless you as a GM just want to say, "You have 5 minutes and then you're taking a vote on where you're going next," the non-combat's going to be far more problematic, in my experience.
Others have suggest ideas for speeding up combat (some rather draconian). Find ones that work for your group and try to use them to reduce 'wasted' time.
That said, you're just gonna have to expect it to take longer. You have twice as many players, expect it to take twice as long.
How to make combat tougher without being overpowering. One quick way I've done in the past (not sure how it would work in an extended campaign with eight players) is to apply the quick rules for advanced creatures to everything they fight. +2 to all rolls (including damage) and special ability DCs, +4 AC and CMD, +2hp/HD. It makes them more resilient without giving them powers the characters can't handle. It also removes a lot of work load advancing individual monsters.
Not a single AP is balanced for more than 6 players and even that's a stretch (4 or 5 being the normal maximum). Not that it's completely impossible, but really the AP's cannot function with any level of challenge if you have more than 6 people.
You say you can't split tne group - well then you're screwed. You must split the group or fail as a game experience. Sorry, no other way to see it. There are some very rare groups that could make this work, but I still see it as an overall poor potential.
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"Tim" is right, ultimately you have to play some things by ear and see, through trial and error, what is good for your group. My own advice is based on my own style of DMing and experiences with several large groups over the years. Obviously, your mileage will vary.
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I've never had a problem with roleplay in large groups and my games are usually described as heavy roleplay / light rollplay.
But Nobody's Home is right in that with more Players in the group, each individual gets less spotlight time -- or rather, less microphone-time -- than with fewer Players. This is something you'll have to play out and see what works for you.
But I don't feel Nobody's Home is right in that you shouldn't (can't) play with a large group if you're interested in good roleplay. I know it can be done.
It will depend, though, on some of the types of Players in your group. If only one Player is a spotlight hog than you have no problems. If several Players enjoy getting into roleplaying than you have to have that age-ole out-of-game group discussion on how each Player has to realize that with double the number of Players they should each be cognizant of each others' spotlight time.
But ultimately, if everyone loves roleplay then a session that goes on "too long" is impossible because it's all roleplay and everyone loves roleplay. I guess the really hard thing (whether there's 4 PCs or 8) is if some Players love roleplaying while others get bored and frustrated with it and just want to kick in a door, kill an orc and steal its pie.
Oh, and I'll add another rule, based on Nobody's Home's observation that implies basically that, in a group with 3 Players everyone gets more spotlight time than a group with 6 Players -- a group with 5 Players has more spotlight time to share than a group of 9 Players:
A) Everyone in the group has to make a PC who is willing to work with the group, for the group -- even more than usual. Even the ass-clown who loves to play the CN Rogue all the time and the dingleberry-jerk that thinks that playing a Paladin means he has to be a dingleberry-jerk, ass-clown.
I've seen working games higher than 8. Forgive me if this is a but "how to suck eggs".
In a traditional "player vs environment" everything revolves around the GM. As number of players increases the time each player gets to spend "doing something" (interacting with the GM) decreases.
There are also "player vs player" (or player with player) games. These are games where the interaction between PCs does not require the GM, and those interactions form a large part of the game. In this case players can get spotlight time without a GM.
The poster child I've seen for large PvP games is LARPs. You generally need a *minimum* of 12 PCs to get them to fire.
I have seen a hybrid Serenity game that worked really well, run by a genius GM. Managed to get the feel of Firefly, where it seems half the time is spent with the various characters roleplaying at each other, but still have the occasional important action scenes. Everyone had secrets, but everyone had to get along.
If I *had* to run an 8 player AP, I'd start looking for ways to get PvP elements in... but even then I'm not sure I could get it to "fire".
Good luck
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I've had this happen, and the first AP I powered up encounters, all bad guys got full hit points, and I would rework BBEGs heavily to maximize them against the group.
This new AP, I also had the players build with a 15 point buy. With your group, maybe a 10 might be called for. This takes some of the pressure off you.
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2) Eliminate everything that has to do with Immediate Actions and seriously, let everyone know that Readying and Holding Actions will likely not be allowed except in extreme circumstances. When it's your turn you go. Period.
3) Don't friggen roll Initiative. Ever. Everyone sits around the table (or wherever) and for the fights you just go clockwise around the room. The DM can put objects in between folks' seats for NPCs. If Players want to sit in different chairs each night y'all can come up with a fair rotation of who sits where.
4) NO Bumps. Haste, Bears' STR & Bulls' Endr, Enlarge Person, Bards' crap, Magic Weapon and other slop that sloooooows down the game as everyone waits for one jerk that can't figure out what his total attack modifier is in under 7 hours ruins games with only 5 PCs, let alone 8+!
Eliminating all of a person's class features is a very good way to speed things up, by reducing the table size.
Are you also going to elimate the clerics healing and reduce the number of feats the fighter receives?
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2) Eliminate everything that has to do with Immediate Actions and seriously, let everyone know that Readying and Holding Actions will likely not be allowed except in extreme circumstances. When it's your turn you go. Period.
3) Don't friggen roll Initiative. Ever. Everyone sits around the table (or wherever) and for the fights you just go clockwise around the room. The DM can put objects in between folks' seats for NPCs. If Players want to sit in different chairs each night y'all can come up with a fair rotation of who sits where.
4) NO Bumps. Haste, Bears' STR & Bulls' Endr, Enlarge Person, Bards' crap, Magic Weapon and other slop that sloooooows down the game as everyone waits for one jerk that can't figure out what his total attack modifier is in under 7 hours ruins games with only 5 PCs, let alone 8+!
Eliminating over half of a person's class features is a very good way to speed things up, by reducing the table size.
Are you also going to elimate the clerics healing and reduce the number of feats the fighter receives?
A better way to do this is enforce a hard time limit. There should be some allowance for new / inexperienced players. If they don't declare their action within that time limit, they are delaying, and you move on.
I wouldn't impose all these other things unless they become a problem.
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I've played in a couple 'large' groups that ended up working out. I second some of the things mentioned above.
*Roll for initiative once at the start of the session and use that the whole session. Bonus points for seating people in that order. No delaying/readying allowed unless people are willing to get up and move.
*No 'forgotten' bonuses. If you forget Inspire Courage, tough.
*Don't be afraid to railroad the plot a little. If the PCs don't immediately pick up on where they're supposed to go next, tell them.
*Put your foot down on out-of-game chatter. Be firm. The moment it comes up, ask people to walk away from the table.
Split the party. Thats always a great idea.
/snark
:-)
Well you could run for different players on differet days. Back in old school days, especially the Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaigns (run by Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax) there would be many players, even more than a dozen. However, only so many would show up for each session.
Of course individual parties tended to be larger as well, most often nine, but rarely as much as twelve according to Mike "Old Geezer" Moynard over at RPG.net, who played with Gary and Dave. That's including hirelings and henchmen (what we'd call cohorts), though. Obviously, you'll want a smaller party.
Ultimately, each party (usaully formed at the beginning of each session out of whatever players showed up, along with their henchmen and the like. Ultimately, it is likely that the simple complications of real life will ensure that only a subset of the group shows up at each session, though it might be helpful if you planned for this as well.
If you make up some cards with people's primary attacks on them, and use the Paizo Buff cards and condition cards, it's not too bad to calc modifiers. You can even have blank cards/post its/whiteboards for people to write down their current totals.
Try to avoid monsters that throw conditions on people that aren't paralysis. Every Sickened Shaken individual in a party is slowing things down. OTOH paralysis is gold.
You could try getting a co-gm to run the monsters, or make sure every pc is ready for you when you get to them. Sounds like that'd be a problem though.
You might be able to pair up inexperienced players with experienced players. This way if someone needs to check rules they can do it with someone other than you, and the experienced player still gets to play.
Finding myself in a similar situation running a Jade Regent campaign. As with most situations whether this works is up to the players themselves. If they can regulate themselves (i.e. be prepared on their turn, know their character, pass the spotlight when appropriate, overall be mindful they are one in a large group) it'll work and can be fun. Combats will take longer but if your players are working together you can still get through quite a bit.
A few other recommendations that I didn't see earlier in the thread;
1. give minion monsters to players to run. You will need to use quite a bit to provide a challenge but not one-shotting the characters. have their stat block printed out with some simple tactics and rp advice. This helps give the players more time at the table and depending on the player they can have a lot of fun acting out the goblin attacking the longshanks.
2. hallways must be minimum 10' wide. 15 is probably better. It sucks for me too as I've collected quite a few flip-mats over the years. Choke-points suck for players and villains.
3. initiative is fine but use a prop like the combat pad so that the order is a clear visual to everyone. I thought about having a static init but I like changing it up. If you're not doing so already roll one or a couple of inits for the bad guys (i.e. the orcs go together,
4. tell the players the ac of the opponent. let them roll attack and damage in advance if they can.
5. Buffs, conditions are really all fine. Players will need scratchpads to calculate their bonuses. Make the caster or a player responsible for annoucing remaining duration each round or when appropriate. If a player forgets to add a modifier and realizes it later too bad.
6. Depending on your group attendance might be a boon. Just accept that characters will dissapear into the rucksack for a session and come back next time.
Recently started a new Pathfinder group, running the Rise of the Runelords anniversary edition. Unfortunately, had a MUCH larger turnout of players than expected, and for various reasons I can't split into 2 groups, and can't tell people they can't be a part of the group.So now I have a group of 8. I attempted to compensate by doubling the number of creatures in the encounters, but the party still handled it easily, with the exception of a trend of horrible attack rolls. But it took too long, the opening encounter of Runelords taking close to 3 hours.
In addition to the doubling, I am using the Critical Hit deck for all monsters, and using the Critical Fumble deck on players only, and dropping the party from the fast track to medium track experience progression.
What is a better way to scale this AP to handle such a large group?
I don't run APs, and I don't know what level PCs you are starting with. I just run my own sandbox game with home brewed adventures baked in. So, take this with a grain of salt.
Assuming your players are levelling up by experience and not on some railroad track, to an extent it will balance out in the long run. More players = less experience per player. Eventually more lower level characters will not be equal to fewer higher level characters in terms of power. The total funds available is going to be the same as well, dividing what they can afford among more characters. You may need to ratchet up the encounters a bit to prevent boredom (nobody likes a cake walk), but be weary of how much additional experience / treasure you let in. In the end, four high level characters can be difficult enough, but eight is far worse. Eight mid level characters =/= four high level PCs. My 2 cp.
Also, play your NPCs smart / hard. No Dm indulgence needed for this one.
*edit* Ahem, nice choice of avatar btw :)