Howdy folks,
I LOVE Pathfinder. I love the streamlined rules, the art, the feel of the game. The only thing I struggle with, and I have been DMing Rise of the Runelords for about 18 months now is how overpowered it often feels.
Now, I've mostly chalked that up to RotRL fast progression, so I haven't let it bother me too much (though I really really wish there was more danger to this campaign...)
...but finally, i hit a wall when the Wizard in our group got a follower from his leadership feat. I've had to upgrade monsters since the party has 5 people in it, but now - there's 6! And worse, she doesn't even entirely split the XP of the group. She's a ninja.
It's been tough enough making a challenge for everyone with 5, with 6, it will require a level of revision I don't feel quite up to. The group has suggested I RP the new ninja, which is fine, to send her off on errands or keep her away from combat, but that seems to nerf the intention of the feat entirely.
So...how do you handle this???! (and if you have extra bandwidth, anyone else find characters simply too powerful way too early?)
Thanks!
Leadership's fun when it's used for flavorful things like appointing stewards to run your kingdom in your absence while you're off killing things. Leadership's broken when it's used for "I now have a second character almost as powerful as my original character for the price of a mere 1 Feat". Don't allow it to be used in the latter sense - or just ban it altogether.
I have always only allowed the cohort. The followers are just allowed for flavor. They never have a mechanical impact in my games.
One downside of leadership is that the cohort's treasure has to be paid for by the PC, unless the other party members help.
More followers = more targets for the monsters and more things the player with Leadership needs to protect. You thought having your mount or familiar get killed was bad? If enough followers/ cohorts die, you lose the feat. Cohorts and followers are also guaranteed to be much lower level than the party, making it that much harder to protect them. Those followers you never pay attention to are also a great source of spies/ saboteurs- they're right there with the party all the time.
There is no rule that says you lose the feat that I know of. You just get a low leadership score if the cohort is killed, depending on how he dies.
Howdy folks,
I LOVE Pathfinder. I love the streamlined rules, the art, the feel of the game. The only thing I struggle with, and I have been DMing Rise of the Runelords for about 18 months now is how overpowered it often feels.
Now, I've mostly chalked that up to RotRL fast progression, so I haven't let it bother me too much (though I really really wish there was more danger to this campaign...)
...but finally, i hit a wall when the Wizard in our group got a follower from his leadership feat. I've had to upgrade monsters since the party has 5 people in it, but now - there's 6! And worse, she doesn't even entirely split the XP of the group. She's a ninja.
Well, let's take note of a few things:
1. The cohort can never ever be more than 2 levels below the PC, regardless of leadership score or experience gained. So assuming the party is 7th level (the minimum you can be to take Leadership), you've got a 7th level party with a 5th level ninja, and as the party levels, the 2 level difference is likely to become more apparent, not less.
2. Technically, because the ninja is lower level, the APL is still only around 7, but I would suggest that if it is making fights easier, that you consider the APL to be 8 instead, and bear that in mind when designing encounters (i.e., your encounters should be CR 8 for an average fight).
I'd also note that the Leadership feat is wide open for interpretation as to who creates the cohorts and followers and what they do, but the way my groups have always played it is while the player can request different kinds of characters, the GM is the one who builds and equips the character. I don't know what you guys did, but that's something to bear in mind for next time. Mind, the GM should not build Gimpy the Wonderclown, but it is okay for the GM to say, build a character around a support concept rather than an uber combat concept (discussing this thoroughly with the player first of course, not just springing it on them and hoping they'll accept it). Don't know how much that helps but that's "how we handle it."
It's been tough enough making a challenge for everyone with 5, with 6, it will require a level of revision I don't feel quite up to.
It is hard to handle a large party, and believe me I empathize (I had six very boisterous players in one campaign...). That said, there can be tricks to combat design to help you not go crazy (this works for all kinds of things):
- Again, remember APL. Your APL should be around 8 not 7 and check the CRs accordingly to that.
- Use lots of monsters, not a single one. This applies to any size party really but is especially essential for large parties. I would attack them with 4 CR 4 creatures, or 6 CR 3 creatures (or higher CRs for more challenges or depending on the creatures' abilities).
- If you feel you can manage it, increase challenges in other ways by using terrain features and circumstantial (but reasonable) penalties so you're not just trying to think of how to beef up monsters, but how other circumstances can challenge them.
The group has suggested I RP the new ninja, which is fine, to send her off on errands or keep her away from combat, but that seems to nerf the intention of the feat entirely.
Glad to hear that it sounds like you've talked about it with the players--and that they are sympathetic. This makes lots of things easier.
That said, based on personal experience, I do NOT recommend that you RP the cohort. I always have a lot of trouble as GM tracking PC companions and it's one of my number one rules that you want the companion, you play them yourself. It is too much work otherwise--and that WILL make running combats harder most definitely, because you're not only playing the monsters but one of the good guys too. That will drive you crazy.
But it sounds like if they think it's a good idea to use the cohort for non combat duties--then suggest they use the cohort for non-combat duties! A ninja likely makes a great scout or trapfinder -- suggest they send her ahead to get info or deal with certain hazards she is equipped to deal with but they are not.
Since they seem sympathetic, in the worst case scenario you might also think about just saying, "Guys, I screwed this one up, do you mind rebuilding the cohort together to make less of a combat based character? I want to be sure she stays useful to you but this is really making things hard on me, and I want to make sure you guys have fun and are challenged and right now this is not helping."
It is entirely possible to build a cohort that is extremely useful to the party but isn't always present in combat, keeping the feat useful but without driving the GM insane. It does require some player-GM cooperation but you seem to be able to do that.
(and if you have extra bandwidth, anyone else find characters simply too powerful way too early?)Thanks!
I often feel I design encounters too easily, and most of the advice I give on revving things up are things I've learned to do along the way to get away from that tendency. Sometimes it just takes awhile to figure out tactics--and it's hard, you're one GM with one set of tactics versus 5 people each with their own tactical perspectives.
But the funny thing I've noticed is that as long as you have fun running and the players have fun playing, they don't really notice when things are "too easy" or "too hard." Right now you're stuck at a place where you're not having fun, so it's important to fix that -- but otherwise, don't sweat it too much, and just take a few steps at a time to improve your game without being too hard on yourself.
Cohorts from the leadership feat are pretty useful additions to a party, but they aren't without cost. Their XP gains may come free without cost to the PCs, but any additions to their gear do not. I do not recommend increasing the treasure you include to compensate.
Once you hit 6 PCs, consider treating them as 2 parties of 3 PCs each. That means you can pretty much double the number of monsters you throw at them and they should be able to handle it.
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I have handled it, and I am very sane.
If anyone disputes that ignore them. :)
I just don't allow it by the book. I did once, but those followers stayed at home, and built the party a new HQ. I no longer have the free time I used to have so I just don't deal with followers anymore.
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The leadership feat is something that I just chose to take for a character of my own. Knowing it could throw things off a bit, I talked to the GM about doing the following:
- The cohort and followers are not meant for combat. There really isn't anything preventing me from using them in combat, but they shouldn't be built or geared up for it. That leaves them for everything else, which is still a great deal.
- Cohorts are stated out with heroic NPC ability scores and wealth.
- Followers are stated out with non-heroic ability scores and standard NPC wealth.
- The GM is allowed to take control of cohorts or followers when he wants to.
- I can stat out the cohort and followers, but the GM approves them before they are used in the game.
Combat is for the player characters. While the cohort could provide useful support in combat, that isn't their purpose. The party can't really afford to keep them equipped well enough anyway. Like I said before, there are plenty of other things they can do outside of combat. They can run errands, keep watch, build a base of operation, carry loot, disable devices, check for traps, set up climbing routes, deliver messages, sell and buy items, run ahead and set up a room at the inn, and anything else you can think of. I am specifically using them to craft items in my game. Being able to upgrade and cutomize your gear is a great thing to be able to do. With cohorts and followers, you are able to have that done while you are out adventuring or while you are asleep.
I am also looking into having the cohort and followers be spies and scouts. Obtaining information of what you are going face ahead of time means you can be better prepared. This will mean you can have parties ready and buffed for fights, which effectively is like having an extra member of the party. However, you can always fix this with a few well placed dispel magic spells.
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I was allowed to take the Leadership feat in a campaign a while back. I was playing a knight (3.5) and took Leadership to have a squire, and he did pretty much what a squire would do. Run around behind me and carry my junk.
Basically, what everyone else said. It's nice for flavor, but the combat and mechanics should be focused on the PCs. If they really want to bring their cohort or followers in, the cohort and/or followers are inevitably going to die eventually, leading to a lower leadership score and doing away with the followers altogether. Kind of a kill switch built into the feat in case it begins to be abused.
As for players being too powerful too early, I've found just the opposite to be true. I TPKd my players three times with the Devilfish from S&S a while back. They wiped and wanted to redo the fight to try to kill it (we had already tpk'd in a previous module) so we hit rewind and did it again and again. The party consisted of a level 4 monk, rogue, ranger, and cleric and I had pull punches and fudge rolls to not kill the PCs in one hit. When this kind of stuff first started happening I chalked it up to an overpowered monster or bad luck, but we are starting to see a trend in our group.