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Hello there.
I'd like to have an honest conversation about the damage that guns do versus archers.
I'd like to keep the discussion within this framework. I am of the opinion that if the Fighter Archer becomes strictly worse than another character in doing ranged damage, something may be wrong.
After crunching the numbers, I decided to go with a Fighter (Archer archetype) and the Gunslinger (Musket Master archetype) with a little bit of Cleric/Inquisitor. The reason I went with the Musket Masters is that, while I know that it looks quite possible for dual-handed double-barreled Pistol wielders to do more damage... I actually do not understand how they do what they do (that is to say, the process of dropping a gun, reloading it, recovering it, all for the purpose of dual-wielding seems just very strange and incomprehensible to me.) I am currently reading over the process and trying to understand it, and I will post about it in another thread later.
For now, let's focus on the Double-Barreled Musket, which is far more clear cut in the kind of damage it can do, and the legality of how it does it.
Also, to keep a standardized point of discussion, I have chosen Level 7. The reason for this is that this is half way through the campaign, and I feel, a good place to check up on all the classes in the game, and see how they're performing.
Let's assume the cheesiest Fighter Archer possible. I'm going to assume he took the Dual-Talent Alternate Trait so he got +2 to two attributes of his choice. He puts 20 in STR and 19 in DEX, and then boosts it to 20 at level 4. He dumps INT, WIS, and CHA to 7, and raises CON to 12.
He buys a +1 Composite Longbow, Strength +5, and takes Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization.
I will invest some more of his money in Boots of Speed so he can ensure that he always has Haste cast on himself, as well.
His weapon will do 1d8+14 damage (+5 from STR, +1 from Weapon Enchantment, +4 from Deadly Aim, +1 from Point-Blank Shot, +2 from Weapon Specialization, and +1 from Expert Archer).
His to-hit is +13/+13/+13/+8 (+7 from BAB, +5 from DEX, + 1 from Weapon Enchantment, +1 from Haste, +1 from Expert Archer, +1 from Weapon Focus, +1 from Point Blank Shot, -2 from Rapid Shot, -2 from Deadly Aim), with a Manyshot to add an extra bit of damage in the first attack, assuming you're within close range of your target (very common in PFS, where most battles become close-quarters).
The target AC at Level 7 is 20 (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html). Thus, he should hit about 70% of the time (decrease that to 45% on the last attack). Overall, this is (4.5+14)*4*.7 + (4.5+14)*.45 = 51.8+8.325 = 60.125 DPR
Next, let's assume the cheesiest Gunslinger Musket Master possible. I'm going to assume he starts with 20 DEX, gets a Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2, Boots of Speed for Haste, and a +1 Double-Barreled Musket.
Also, this Gunslinger is a little clever. At Level 7, he dips into Inquisitor or Cleric to get the Law Domain to make sure he always gets 11 on his rolls. This way, he sidesteps the issue of critically failing on a 1-4.
His weapon will do 1d12+12 damage (+6 from DEX, +4 from Deadly Aim, +1 from Point Blank Shot, +1 from Weapon Enchantment).
His to-hit is +8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3 (+6 from BAB, +6 from DEX, +1 from Weapon Enchantment, +1 from Point Blank Shot, +1 from Haste, -2 Rapid Shot, -2 Deadly Aim, -4 Double-Barreled Double Shot). We assume the character is within 10 feet of the enemy, which is, again, not uncommon in PFS.
The target AC is 20 at Level 7, but this build aims to resolve against Touch AC, which remains at about 12 across the board (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agyi5tgUTatCdHFjS05Kb18xVGd2b T Zhak5YaGQtMFE#gid=3). Thus, the Musket Master should hit 80% of the time (it would by 85%, but a 4 critically fails), reduced to 55% of the time on the last two shots. Overall, this is (6.5+12)*6*.8+(6.5+12)*2*.55 = 88.8 + 20.35 = 109.15 DPR.
However! We know that this build took the Law Domain for a reason. The Double-Barreled Musket’s main weakness is the chance to critically fail from 1-4 when using Paper Cartridges. For the purposes of this calculation, let’s assume he hits 100% of the time when he does shoot, and 0% during the times he’s using Touch of Law. On average, he’ll “hit” 50% of the time for…
(6.5+12)*8*.5 = 74 DPR.
A little less damage, but it abridges the chance to critically fail.
Overall, it would seem that, given two rounds, a Fighter Archer does about 60.125 DPR and a Gunslinger Musket Master does about 74 DPR. However, the Gunslinger has several disadvantages that I think ultimately shift the balance in favor of the Archer as the more reliable damage dealer. First, the Gunslinger Musket Master has to get within 10 feet of his foe in order to deal damage versus touch AC. On the other hand, it does seem quite possible for him to entirely “snipe” down opponents from further distances by combining the Touch of Law domain with the Gunslinger’s Deadeye ability, spending Grit points to resolve versus Touch AC in a range increment further away. Also, a Gunslinger-Cleric/Inquisitor has the ability to increase his gun’s attack distance by +10 feet, though this requires a Standard Action to cast, which could be a whole Standard Action attacking. Keep in mind that all the turns the Gunslinger-Cleric/Inquisitor attempts to buff himself, the Fighter Archer is continually attacking, consistently, with no need for buffs, with his awesome 120 foot range. The Gunslinger could get a Distance Enchantment on his weapon to increase the range to 20 feet, though if we're playing that game, the Archer will upgrade his weapon to gain Seeking, so it no longer misses against Concealment Miss Chance, a significant advantage.
So do I think Gunslinger Musket Masters are overpowered? No, not really. But feel free to disagree.
For those who would tell me the decision to invest in the Cleric/Inquisitor's Touch of Law ability is silly, I really do feel like it's basically a necessity with this build. Shooting eight times with a 20% critical failure chance with each roll will statistically come back to bite you, hard.
Also, for those feeling somewhat more adventurous, I have a friend who chose to invest in Bit of Luck from the Luck domain instead so he can crit. That works too, but I do feel that some sort of "fudging" mechanic is necessary to make this build consistent.
Yeah, and this applies in the general sense, and not just Pathfinder Society (outside of the one bit about using level 7 because that's about halfway to PFS retirement). This probably isn't the correct section of the forum, and I'm pretty sure this has been done many times.
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I expect this thread to be moved into a more appropriate place than the PFS forum pretty quickly, but since I read it anyway...
At Level 7, he dips into Inquisitor or Cleric to get the Law Domain to make sure he always gets 11 on his rolls.Huh? The ability says:
Touch of Law (Sp): You can touch a willing creature as a standard action, infusing it with the power of divine order and allowing it to treat all attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws for 1 round as if the natural d20 roll resulted in an 11. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
So it takes a standard action to activate, lasts one round, and can be used a a handful of times per day. Hardly a magic bullet, if you'll pardon the expression.
First, the Gunslinger Musket Master has to get within 10 feet of his foe in order to deal damage versus touch AC.
Where did you get this from?
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First, the Gunslinger Musket Master has to get within 10 feet of his foe in order to deal damage versus touch AC.Where did you get this from?
The OP is having the Musket Master use a double-barreled Musket, which has a range increment of 10 feet, rather then the normal Musket which has a range increment of 40 feet.