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So there I was mindin me own bidness when a demon done come along and grabbed me. This was not a pleasant experience. So in the future, how do I keep grappelers in the hurt locker?
So how can I raise my defense against grapple, damage the grappeler with spikes or fire or ice or somethin.
The way I am reading Spiked armor is that I have to return grapple at a -4 to use armor spikes... Though as I see it, if I am covered in spikes and you touch me, yer boned either way.
Wasn't there a scarf that aided in grappled defense checks?
Additional info: Dwarven lvl 1 Warrior/8 Cleric in spiked dwarven plate with a tower shield and circle of protection from evil active.
Ring of freedom of movement, or the new item on the item compendium that does something similar on command.
You take penalties when grappled to your dex, but I don't see why the armor spikes get a -4. Just to be clear I am assuming you are saying you get an receive -4 worse than any other weapon.
Monsters are better at grappling than PC's normally. You can make full attacks with a one handed weapon though. The creature grappling you normally can not.
i think he's referncing a penalty for humanoids not having 2 hands free...
whether or not you want to use armor spike damage in a grapple doesn't affect that though, only what stuff is in your hands affects whether that penalty applies or not (i believe it's -5, which is kind of a non-standard penalty). EDIT: or you're talking about what it says in the description... that penalty is just the normal one for non-proficiency, in this case armor spikes are a martial weapon.
i don't think armor spikes is really a thing to focus on, it doesn't make you better at grapple, and it doesn't really do automaic damage to your grapple attackers when you are grappled, it just does damage when you succeed on a grapple.
if you're a barbarian, the brawler (or something) archetype has a great abilty that makes it so regardless of if your attacker has Improved Grapple or Grab, you can take an AoO against them. I've asked on these boards WAY to many times whether that AoO applies it's DMG to your Grapple CMD or not, with no answer. IF it does, that's a great defensive boost. THe same Archetype lets you apply bonuses to specific maneuver,either CMB or CMD, in your case CMD sounds important. You can get that with a 2 level Barbarian dip.
AH: you're a Cleric: if you have Travel Domain or Liberation, those can get you out of Grapples easily.
probably better than Armor Spikes is getting a Slick Armor Enchantment.
Using your Channel Energy (which can apply vs. Outsiders with a Feat) is completely usable while Grappled and doesn't provoke an AoO or require a concentration check like spells/SLAs do.
casting the appropriate resistance spell and then setting yourself on fire seems to work. or racial fire resistance if you've got it and drop some flasks of alchemist's fire at your feet if you don't actually wanna cast anything. note that you dont actually have to use fire, just anything that deals splash or damage to grapplers.
you're thinking of the breakaway scarf (or was it breakaway outfit, I can never remember).
FoM/slick enchant/domains/etc. that have already been suggested are all wonderful ideas as well.
a demon is likely resistant to fire. even if it wasn't damage from some fire is just not big damage.
if you really can't do anything else, and are afraid to try a concentration check to cast,
just go total defense, hopefully with acrobatics ranks to get a better bonus,
and have any familiars/animal companions/allies aid another to help your AC (untyped, but should help CMD per RAI, IMHO)
and hopefully they will fail to maintain/re-establish the grapple next round.
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Remember what protection from evil does for you.
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature.
so if it was summoned, tut tut mr gm!
Freedom of movement.
Liberation domain fixes things up nicely.
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I like the freedom of movement, but 20K is out of my range. The -4 penalty I refer to is the unskilled in martial weapon thing.
My cleric is Prot/Artificer domains.
The demon was gated in, not summoned so Prot evil didn’t work.
Slick armor is almost 4k for +5 to escape artist. In my full plate I didn’t even try.
As per others aiding my AC, doesn’t being grappled negate my AC in lieu of CMD?
+1 armor doesnt aid my CMD? and Protection from evil(+2AC) doesn't help my CMD?
The demon had 20Fire resist, but that was just one monster. I was grappled by 3 different enemies during the session. I have a high AC, so the GM doesn’t try to hit me with weapons, just combat maneuvers and touch attacks.
I am a trip specced cleric who acts like a fighter most of the time. So I just bashed it in its head twice a round till the party killed it. It was a 4 armed demon so it grappled me in 1 hand, and took 3 attacks per round on me for about 1/3 of my HP each round without having to beat my AC, just my grappled CMD.
It will not help much but you could wear a barbed vest.
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Liberating Command is a good low level spell for freeing yourself from grapples, but doesn't help you against being Re-Grappled
Freedom of Movement is a 10 min/lvl duration, lvl 4 cleric spell.
If you know your GM is just grappling you and it's ruining your fun, prepare it every day, cast it before you're going into hairy situations. 80 min is a long time in game.
As per others aiding my AC, doesn’t being grappled negate my AC in lieu of CMD?
+1 armor doesnt aid my CMD? and Protection from evil(+2AC) doesn't help my CMD?
i tried to be clear, these are untyped bonuses to AC... that apply to touch AC.
per RAW, they don't help CMD (which has every bonus type applicable to Touch AC, EXCEPT untyped),but I am 99% certain that missing untyped is an oversight, and thus your CMD SHOULD benefit from these AC bonuses.
...finally, any miss chance you have does apply to CMB rolls, which are still attack rolls.
mirror image is a similar effect, even though it doesn't use xx% percentage figures.
It was a 4 armed demon so it grappled me in 1 hand, and took 3 attacks per round on me for about 1/3 of my HP each round without having to beat my AC, just my grappled CMD.
I'm not 100% certain, but it sounds like your GM isn't following the rules completely here. If it's maintaining, then it doesn't really have the actions to full attack you. If it's 'dropping and re-grabbing', then there's no reason to hold out on one arm/attack. The only reason to 'grab you in one hand' (only), i.e. taking the -20 option, is if it wants to move around, or if it wants to take AoOs. MAYBE if took that option, it could move 5' away from you after full attacking and grabbing you, leaving you not threatening it (and thus unable to attack it back). I'm not clear if the demon was planning on 'drawing' AoOs against your other allies.
I like the freedom of movement, but 20K is out of my range.
The spell is on your spell list, and as an 8th level cleric you can cast it. Keep it prepared. Even if you have to cast it with a concentration check because you're grappled, still better to attempt it.
When you've time and a feat to spare, grab Forge Ring and make it yourself (or Craft Wondrous Item for a similar item that you could make, perhaps with some restrictions for a cheaper creation cost).
The -4 penalty I refer to is the unskilled in martial weapon thing.
I read your first post as saying your character is Warrior 1/Cleric 8. The Warrior level should grant you martial weapon proficiency, so you should not be applying a non proficiency penalty.
My cleric is Prot/Artificer domains.
AND you're an 8th level cleric! Then use your dancing weapon ability Artificer grants you. It's a supernatural ability so you do not have to make a Concentration check to use it! That way you can have an animated weapon attacking the grappling creature while it's grappling you, and the creature has the grappled condition so it will be easier to hit.
Your Protection domain ability also is another way to get you a Deflection bonus if you didn't have Protection from Evil cast, or the attacker is not evil.
The demon was gated in, not summoned so Prot evil didn’t work.
While that won't drive it out, +2 Deflection bonus the spell adds to your AC versus evil creatures does still work, and applies to your CMD (which answers a question you asked).
Here's the relevant passage in the CMD rules:
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD
Slick armor is almost 4k for +5 to escape artist. In my full plate I didn’t even try.
A much cheaper option would be purchasing potions of grease at 50 gp a pop. That grants you a +10 circumstance bonus to CMD to avoid being grappled and to escape a grapple. You'd have to apply it before it would be useful but still a cheap solution for a high bonus.
As per others aiding my AC, doesn’t being grappled negate my AC in lieu of CMD?
If people are Aiding Another to help you with the grapple, the bonus is applying to whatever check you need to make.
The demon had 20Fire resist, but that was just one monster. I was grappled by 3 different enemies during the session. I have a high AC, so the GM doesn’t try to hit me with weapons, just combat maneuvers and touch attacks.
*shakes head* GMs who attack their characters in one way and one way only only teach their players how to devise ways to prep against that one attack... as you are doing now. This is just peanut gallery chatter, but he needs to get more creative than that.
Now, your CMD shouldn't be that bad -- your BAB should be +7 and if you're a melee oriented character your Strength should be good. You may have a lousy Dex and/or it may be reduced by Max Dex penalty of your plate, so maybe consider a Dex boosting item at some point. And again, look for ways to boost your CMD with the bonuses like deflection.
You could if you have a feat to spare grab Defensive Combat Training. That will treat your CMD as if you had full BAB (raising your effective CMD by 2).
If you have lots of feats to burn, you could also just bite the bullet and get Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and Greater Grapple. After all, you can't say your character hasn't had a lot of experience dealing with grappling, he's going to get better at it sooner than later...
And then you can turn your GM's tactics right back around on him.
I am a trip specced cleric who acts like a fighter most of the time. So I just bashed it in its head twice a round till the party killed it. It was a 4 armed demon so it grappled me in 1 hand, and took 3 attacks per round on me for about 1/3 of my HP each round without having to beat my AC, just my grappled CMD.
Well, something's wrong there, as Quandary notes.
First, you usually need two free hands to grapple. So he can't grapple you with one hand unless he's got a special ability to do so.
Second, here's a relevant portion of the grapple rules, emphasis mine:
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).(snip)
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
SO: a creature grappling you must spend a standard action to maintain the grapple (make another grapple check) and do ONE other thing, such as hit you with A natural attack. UNLESS he has a special monster ability that allows him to make multiple attacks while grappling, he cannot hit you more than once while maintaining the grapple -- his standard action is SPENT and all he has left is a move action (he needs a full action like anyone else to multi attack and you don't get that when you're grappling).
If he is releasing you before attacking you, then he is attacking your AC, not your CMD.
Some creatures have the grab ability which allows you to start a grapple as a free action, but I don't see anything in that which allows you to get extra attacks, not even if you have multiple hands (I looked at, for an example, the marilith entry, which is a multi-armed demon who actually can grapple people with her tail, but I don't see anything about her able to multi attack a tail grabbed creature with her arms, her choices are simply to hold onto it or constrict it to death. A GM might interpret that differently, mind.)
On another note, if you're trip specced, then do all you can to trip, hurt, or immobilize any potential foes who might try to grapple you. Also, I know you're melee oriented, but if your character's continually grappled, he may be learning it's not always a good idea to charge in and fight--so he may learn to stand back, away from combat, buff himself and the party first and/or cast some ranged attack spells before getting into the fray.
One last bit of advice is just read read read read over the combat rules, especially about combat maneuvers and grappling, over and over and over again until you know them as well as you possibly can. If your GM is misinterpreting or exploiting the rules to unfairly weaken your character, then you can have the rules on your side to be sure that the encounter is dealt with fairly. If you know what you're doing without a doubt, that can make the situation a lot easier--and doubtless in this way you will also come up with solutions to your problem we'll not have thought of. d20PFSRD's Grapple Flowcharts may come in handy.
Good luck.
GM for Sterlings here, the adventure spanned two looong sessions each deep into the wee hours... so some facts got muddled. Let me clarify some stuff:
The demon wasn't making 3 attacks per round while in the grappled state, it was making them while it had the player grabbed. Basically the first attack hit, Sterling was grabbed, the rules state the grab is only via the limb used so it took it's next three attacks. Sterling tripped it the same round (of course). Once they started rolling around on the floor it only made one attack until it released the grapple and stood up.
Sterling was only grappled by one monster as I recall, and that was the demon. He was however hit by an adhesive slam attack from a mimic which gives the grapple condition, but it was that or justify the mimic walking past the dwarf standing right in front of it to get to another party member that hadn't attacked it yet.
In fact, to quickly recap the fights:
- a fungus that didn't attack at all (non combatant).
- Neanderthals who barely fought, and definitely did not grapple - they actually ran away. One spent entire fight tripped.
- Winged guardians that ignored anyone but the player with the emerald (not Sterling) and did not grapple.
- Giant fly, may have tried a pick up to drop attack on the Ninja, but I think it died too quickly, it didn't last two rounds.
- Rock Grubs, didn't grapple.
- Ghost goblins, didn't grapple.
- Minotaur, spent the entire fight tripped, did not grapple.
- Mimic, Sterling given grapple condition through special ability, not specifically targeted at him, he was the only one within range.
- Medusa, caged and bypassed.
- Hill Giant, bribed and bypassed.
- Druid in Tyrannosaurus form via foul magic, Sterling argued he couldn't be swallowed whole, then tripped it and it spent the rest of the fight on the floor as it's BAB was high enough that attacking from prone was a better option than eating the AoO.
- Antipaladin, tripped and disarmed immediately. Resorted to touch of corruption from the ground rather than eat an entire round of AoO from half the group just to be tripped again the following round. This was the only creature with a touch attack.
- Mimic, auto grapple on successful slam attack, as mentioned above not much to do here, slam was it's only attack.
- Blood Beast, assaulted from outside it's range by magic, did not grapple.
So out of two sessions, Sterling was actually CMB vs. CMD grappled once, and had to deal with touch attacks once. I wouldn't really call that targeting him with only those abilities. Other than touch of corruption, every bit of damage he took (and it was a lot) was with weapons against his AC. This is also only the third time I've GM'ed for him and the first time had zero grapples and zero touch attacks.
In fact, in 9 levels Sterling has only ever been grappled once and dealt with touch attacks once - though admittedly we pass around the GM hat and he hasn't played every session.
Two sides to every story folks.
I guarantee that if one of his players played like he does his Cleric with the constant chain tripping, he'd be in here asking for advice on how to counter it. :D
+1... with the caveat that if they are just full attacking and doing grabs 'just because', that IS very nasty.
but that is targetting normal AC BEFORE the free Grabs are initiated (vs. CMD).
I love the Grease Potion option DQ mentioned, incidentally that's PERFECT sort of usage for familiar's to do, they don't have to be uber poweful or spectacular, they just need to pull a Potion out and pour it onto you. With +10 CMD, there is no way they are re-initiating or maintaining that Grapple next round, unless you are TOTALLY outclassed. (well, OR they have strength surge or true strike or something)
As per others aiding my AC, doesn’t being grappled negate my AC in lieu of CMD?If people are Aiding Another to help you with the grapple, the bonus is applying to whatever check you need to make.
Yeah, your AC is never 'negated' by grappling.
Grapples, and other Maneuvers, TARGET your AC, just like Touch Attacks target Touch AC.But any NORMAL attacks, whether from your Grappler (if they have actions to spare) or other enemies, still use normal AC,
albeit it will be penalized a bit due to you being Grappled, but not really very much.
EDIT: as i FORGOT to mention, the demon being a demon, not a humanoid (not to mention having 4 hands) isn't subject to the rule about needing 2 hands free. regardless, the way it was explained how that affected the attack options isn't legit for ANYBODY/THING.
note: when DQ says 'when grappling, the monster can do ONE other thing', that's talking about the 'options' of MAINTAINING a grapple (which are Damage=Nat Attack damage, Pin, Move, and Tie-Up). WHen you do a Maintain, you normally have a Move Actino remaining, which isn't usually good for very much. IF you have the Greater Grapple Feat, the Maintain can be a Move Action (and it still has the same options), and a STANDARD action is 'free', usable for a Standard Attack/Vital Strike (against anybody), a Cleave, Spellcasting, Su abilities, whatever... If they are Grappled though, related limitations apply (no 2handed weapons IF they are humanoid/only have 2 arms, concentration check on spells/SLAs). as I said above, being Grappled doesn't 'negate' your AC, so any normal attacks against you from ANY source (your grappler, outside enemies) should target the AC type they would normally target.
the alternate strategy for grab monsters is to NOT maintain (losing the possibility of pinning you), and just 'drop and re-initiate' by full attacking... but as DQ notes, that requires hitting your normal AC first (to do damage) before they can take the free Grab/Grapples. if your AC is so awesome, then many of those attacks may not hit. that goes for whatever attack was originally used to initiate the grapple against you, unless the creature just used a Standard Action to make a single Grapple check against you with no other damage/effects.
besides dropping the grapple and full attacking (hoping to hit and re-initiate the grapple via grab), they is very few ways to get lots of attacks in vs. a target you are grappling. there is a barbarian rage power that gives you a free bite. some monsters have constrict which gives bonus damage on any succesful grapple check (potentially on top of the damage option). rake should probably be mentioned, but is APPARENTLY kind of controversial how it works (whether on a maintain, or as full attack), so i won't go into it here (since the demon doesn't have it AFAIK).
+1... with the caveat that if they are just full attacking and doing grabs 'just because', that IS very nasty.
This particular demon grabbed with intent to drag into a mirror, not 'just because,' so no caveat necessary in this case :)
But any NORMAL attacks, whether from your Grappler (if they have actions to spare) or other enemies, still use normal AC,
albeit it will be penalized a bit due to you being Grappled, but not really very much.
The PRD is worded like this for the one being grappled:
Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.
The wording for the one doing the grappling is:
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
It doesn't say you need to make an attack as the grappler, just that you can choose to inflict damage. As written, the person getting grappled needs to roll an attack, the grappler does not. This doesn't negate the AC, but does seem to completely bypass it for that one attack per round if that's what the grappler decides to do. Technically I was still wrong by rolling against Sterlings CMD, as the single natural attack the demon took should have automatically hit per RAW. I think that's what you are saying, just clarifying in case I'm misreading it.
The wording for the one doing the grappling is:Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
It doesn't say you need to make an attack as the grappler, just that you can choose to inflict damage. As written, the person getting grappled needs to roll an attack, the grappler does not. This doesn't negate the AC, but does seem to completely bypass it for that one attack per round if that's what the grappler decides to do. Technically I was still wrong by rolling against Sterlings CMD, as the single natural attack the demon took should have automatically hit per RAW. I think that's what you are saying, just clarifying in case I'm misreading it.
Ah, no, that is what you can do when you are maintaining the grapple, which starts the turn after the grapple begins. I quoted the fuller passage above. Once successfully maintaining a grapple, you an deal the damage equal to one of your attacks automatically, yes.
That rule by itself does NOT mean you can do a multiattack on the character and automatically hit with all of your natural attacks.
Now, it sounds like we're talking about a creature with grab, and grab does make it more complicated. Just for rules reference:
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Format: grab; Location: individual attacks.
I've bolded the parts that I think are relevant to the discussion.
There's two (related) things here --
1) When a creature full attacks on his turn, and he successfully hits with a natural attack that activates grab (grappling as a free action), does he resolve the rest of his natural attacks and how?
For example, say we're talking about a marilith. She full attacks with all of her swords and her tail. The tail successfully hits and thus she can immediately use her tail's grab attack. If she immediately goes into a grapple, does she lose the rest of her sword attacks, because she now has to go into the rules for grapple? Does she have to hit with her swords first before grappling with the tail?
Or can she attack the grappled creature with her swords on that turn? I don't think so on this last one, but I'm not clear on this, and let's carry on to the next issue ---
Once a creature is successfully grabbed, the grappling monster (let's stick with marilith) has two choices: fully enter a grapple, or just hold the monster.
If she fully enters a grapple, I assume that means she takes on the grappled condition and all that en-tails (ha!) -- which also assumes that from at least the next turn onward, she's got to use the usual standard action to maintain the grapple and so on, which means she can only do the one attack's worth of damage (or move, pin, or tie up the creature), even though her arms are all technically free.
If she holds the creature, the wording suggest she still has to maintain the grapple (at a penalty), which still eats up the standard action, which means she still can't attack with her swords. Looks like the only benefit she gets from just holding the creature is that she herself is not considered grappled (and in the marilith's case, can still deal constriction damage to the grappled creature).
So looks like from the 2nd turn of grappling onward, no matter what the demon cannot attack with his natural attacks, even if he's got limbs free.
The question is on the first turn, going back to the first point, can the demon grab the foe and still finish its full attack--and can it use its full attack on the grappled creature?
Am I missing a rules explanation somewhere that clarifies this?
The way I'd run it myself is resolve all the natural attacks first (targeting AC for all of them) and THEN dealing with the grab at the end.
And definitely in no place does the monster get to auto deal damage with all its attacks during the "maintain grapple" action.
Bad Mojo, thanks for bringing in your side of the story by the way. Helps to see the different perspectives.
The wording for the one doing the grappling is:Once successfully maintaining a grapple, you an deal the damage equal to one of your attacks automatically, yes.
That rule by itself does NOT mean you can do a multiattack on the character and automatically hit with all of your natural attacks.
I never said it did and that's not what happened in the game. When the grapple condition was set, one natural attack was made - though I did roll it against his CMD which was wrong. We play with a guy that has been roleplaying since the 70's and owned his own game shop, he's a great rules lawyer and more than one attack was quickly nixed.
Now, it sounds like we're talking about a creature with grab, and grab does make it more complicated. Just for rules reference:
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent....
Here's the timeline:
Demon attacks Sterling with attack one and opts to grab and hold
Demon attacks Sterling with attack two
Demon attacks Sterling with attack three
Demon attacks Sterling with attack four
Sterling trips Demon
since sterling is still held and Demon is Large to Sterling's Medium I ruled it drags him down as well.
Next round the Demon grapples with Sterling, the following it decides to let the grapple go and stand up so it can bring all arms to bear again. I think on the round it grappled I rolled the CMD to maintain *as well as* another CMB to attack. That may be wrong, but it's no where near "full attacks with all natural attacks."
Yes, but I am not certain you should be able to continue your multiple attacks after you initiate the grapple, even if you are able to initiate the grapple as a free action. I think I'm forgetting something, so hopefully someone else can provide insight.
Next round the Demon grapples with Sterling, the following it decides to let the grapple go and stand up so it can bring all arms to bear again.
It takes a move action to stand from prone and thus it could only attack once on that turn (and thus it could "not bring all arms to bear again"--not on that same turn anyway).
I think on the round it grappled I rolled the CMD to maintain *as well as* another CMB to attack. That may be wrong, but it's no where near "full attacks with all natural attacks."
If you are rolling to maintain, that is a standard action, so you cannot make any further attack rolls.
if you are maintaining for damage, you don't roll a separate attack roll to do 1x natural attack damage, that is included in the effect of the grapple maintain roll. that roll does target CMD, not AC, and thus this IS a way to do melee damage to a character without targetting AC... you just can't full attack with it.
i am baffled why DQ thinks initiating a grab/free grapple in the middle of a full attack would prevent one from continuing the full attack. being grappled yourself doesn't prevent one from full attacking, after all. if you are grappled yourself (didn't take the -20 option from grab), there are certain limitations and penalties, but they don't prevent you from taking iteratives. you can't take AoOs if you are grappled, but that's irrelevant to completing your full attack. you will take a penalty to DEX, and apply a -2 penalty to non-grapple attack rolls, but you can still make those attack rolls.
the only thing that MAY apply is the wording saying you can't take actions which require 2 hands, which means 2-handed weapons would be unusable, and plausibly that may preclude 2WF with 2 actual hands (vs. headbutts, etc). i'm not sure if that is truly intended to apply to EVERYBODY though, or only the HUMANOIDS that the -4 penalty for not having 2 hands free applies to. per RAW, it applies to everybody... but if they are using natural attacks and/or 1-handed weapons, there is no restriction.
re: the timeline given for the combat,
1) tripping a larger creature who is grappling you does not bring you down too.
a grapple can still be maintained even if the grappler is prone.
2) i'm not clear what happened on the round 'the demon grappled with sterling'. maintain grapple for damage?
given that the demon CAN hit sterling's AC (to trigger the original grab),
if you want damage, dropping the grapple and full attacking is the better option IMHO.
otherwise, the only reason to maintain would be to pin or use the move option to move thru this mirror.
perhaps if the demon could only hit on a 20 or something vs. normal AC (and got lucky the first round) it might make sense to use maintain if it would be easier...
but if moving thru the mirror is the priority, they should do that and not the damage option.
3)it's also unclear if 2 rounds passed between 'Next round the Demon grapples with Sterling, the following it decides to let the grapple go...', and if so, what Sterling DID during that round... Try to escape the Grapple (unsuccesfully)?
4) there is no reason to drop the grapple in order to stand up and bring all arms to bear.
all arms are usable while you are prone, there is just an attack penalty. (to CMB also)
regardless, you don't need to drop the grapple to stand up, you can do that while grappled.
it provokes, but Sterling can't take the AoO because he is grappled, only other adjacent people.
Yes, but I am not certain you should be able to continue your multiple attacks after you initiate the grapple, even if you are able to initiate the grapple as a free action. I think I'm forgetting something, so hopefully someone else can provide insight.
It continued it's attacks after initiating a grab and hold, which the rules state only affect the grabbing limb. A grapple is different.
It takes a move action to stand from prone and thus it could only attack once on that turn (and thus it could "not bring all arms to bear again"--not on that same turn anyway).
It stood so the next round it could make a full attack as opposed to a single one. Trust me, Sterling trips enough things constantly that we are all intimate with the rule of standing.
If you are rolling to maintain, that is a standard action, so you cannot make any further attack rolls.
Again, correct, I don't have to roll for attacks, I should have just straight applied the natural weapon damage from one attack. That's what I'm saying. Nothing really changed, I made a roll, it was well above his CMD and he took one attack worth of damage.
if you are maintaining for damage, you don't roll a separate attack roll to do 1x natural attack damage, that is included in the effect of the grapple maintain roll. that roll does target CMD, not AC, and thus this IS a way to do melee damage to a character without targetting AC... you just can't full attack with it.
So even though the verbiage was off, making a roll against CMD and doing a single attacks worth of damage is the rule, so the combat was handled properly. I should have called the roll a maintenance action instead of an actual attack, I can see where the confusion may have been but the end result would be unchanged which is good.
i am baffled why DQ thinks initiating a grab/free grapple in the middle of a full attack would prevent one from continuing the full attack. being grappled yourself doesn't prevent one from full attacking, after all. if you are grappled yourself (didn't take the -20 option from grab), there are certain limitations and penalties, but they don't prevent you from taking iteratives. you can't take AoOs if you are grappled, but that's irrelevant to completing your full attack. you will take a penalty to DEX, and apply a -2 penalty to non-grapple attack rolls, but you can still make those attack rolls.
Agree, the rule for grab specifically states it affects the grabbing limb and no other.
the only thing that MAY apply is the wording saying you can't take actions which require 2 hands, which means 2-handed weapons would be unusable, and plausibly that may preclude 2WF with 2 actual hands (vs. headbutts, etc). i'm not sure if that is truly intended to apply to EVERYBODY though, or only the HUMANOIDS that the -4 penalty for not having 2 hands free applies to. per RAW, it applies to everybody... but if they are using natural attacks and/or 1-handed weapons, there is no restriction.
I guess the interpretation would be up to whether or not the demon fell under a humanoid type?
demons are outsiders by type, not humanoids. technically aasimar and teifligs are also not humanoids, but outsiders, and thus immune to the penalty. if you want to improv on the RAW, and say 'humanoid by general form', the demon here would still not be penalized because it has multiple arms.
re: grab 'affecting the limb', it doesn't actually do anything to 'affect' usage of that limb, by taking the penalty you just don't take the grappled condition yourself. normally grab is on natural attacks which only make 1 attack per full attack, but IF you somehow had grab on a 'limb'/weapon which you were making iteratives with, succesfully grabbing with the -20 option would NOT prevent you from making further iterative attacks with that limb/weapon... because that isn't stated in the rules. (nor would it affect potential AoOs with that limb per RAW) I can see why you might think further iteratives and AoOs SHOULD be precluded from that limb/weapon, and that's a good house-rule, but since grab almost never shows up on iteratives the main effect of such a house-rule is going to be felt on AoOs (which you can take if non-grappled) using the grab-weapon/limb.
i'm hope i've been helpful in getting you a solider understanding of the grapple rules and tangential issues.
re: the timeline given for the combat,
1) tripping a larger creature who is grappling you does not bring you down too.
a grapple can still be maintained even if the grappler is prone.
Under what circumstances would you go down then? If a Giant has hold of your head and falls off a cliff, how would you not go with it? Is there a rule for that?
2) i'm not clear what happened on the round 'the demon grappled with sterling'. maintain grapple for damage?
Yeah, grappling, though admittedly I was calling the roll an attack and not to maintain the grapple.
given that the demon CAN hit sterling's AC (to trigger the original grab),
if you want damage, dropping the grapple and full attacking is the better option IMHO.
Which is what it did after two rounds of grappling with both prone if I recall.
otherwise, the only reason to maintain would be to pin or use the move option to move thru this mirror.
I figured the mirror move would be out of the question as both were prone?
perhaps if the demon could only hit on a 20 or something vs. normal AC (and got lucky the first round) it might make sense to use maintain if it would be easier...
but if moving thru the mirror is the priority, they should do that and not the damage option.
I didn't know if that was an option. The demon had been enlarged in a 5' hallway by a rod of wonder, so it had the squeezed condition. It was also prone while grappling with a prone Sterling.
3)it's also unclear if 2 rounds passed between 'Next round the Demon grapples with Sterling, the following it decides to let the grapple go...', and if so, what Sterling DID during that round... Try to escape the Grapple (unsuccesfully)?
Two rounds, demon decides standing is the best option, Sterling continued making his attacks from the ground.
4) there is no reason to drop the grapple in order to stand up and bring all arms to bear.
all arms are usable while you are prone, there is just an attack penalty. (to CMB also)
True, he could have dropped the grapple and did full attacks from the floor, but he was being jumped by a ninja and catching Sorcerer spells as well. Mobility was a consideration.
regardless, you don't need to drop the grapple to stand up, you can do that while grappled.
it provokes, but Sterling can't take the AoO because he is grappled, only other adjacent people.
Good to know, maybe next time it'll stand while maintaining the grapple and use Sterling as a human shield. ;)
Under what circumstances would you go down then? If a Giant has hold of your head and falls off a cliff, how would you not go with it? Is there a rule for that?
One relevant rule would seeem to be the 'cannot move' rule of Grapple, which is hugely unclear per RAW, if it applies to your own movement or ANY outside-force-induced movement (e.g. gravity, or bullrush). Relatedly, you also run into the issue that Grapple moves a target adjacent on a succesful check, but there is no language 'Keeping it there'...
So assuming that at least the Giant would normally be falling in your example (per RAW, it's Grappled, and so PERHAPS cannot be moved by any force, e.g. Gravity), there isn't anything RAW that would 'stick you' to him and make you fall as well.But if we DO want to read a 'stick together' function into Grapple, it seems like we should look at your Max Weight Carrying capacity if you are 'involuntarily' holding/supporting the Giant. If the Giant is within your Max Capacity, then I would say that it is now your choice whether to stand on the cliff, supporting the Giant, or decide to fall off with it. If the Giant is beyond your Max Weight limit, then you would be 'forced' to also fall ('stuck to' the Giant). All that is well beyond the RAW though, albeit the RAW isn't really sufficient one way or the other.
I figured the mirror move would be out of the question as both were prone?
By strict RAW, one could argue that the Move function of Maintain works just fine while Prone, albeit you would still be Prone after moving. Even if we don't rely on that (or say that such a Move/Maintain could only move 5' as per Crawl), you can still Stand Up yourself and then Move/Maintain (the target would still be Prone after the movement).
I didn't know if that was an option. The demon had been enlarged in a 5' hallway by a rod of wonder, so it had the squeezed condition. It was also prone while grappling with a prone Sterling.
Well, while squeezing there is the -4 penalty to attack rolls, which also applies to CMBs, and the -4 untyped AC penalty (which SHOULD apply to CMD, but doesn't per RAW). Otherwise, it's just double movement cost, so you can do the Move/Maintain Option, you will just move half as far.
Sounds like a very dynamic encounter, regardless if you went with the strict rules or not!
I think my answers do show that the RAW is well capable of handling dynamic situations like this,
perhaps with the 'cannot move' aspect being it's biggest question mark.
i am baffled why DQ thinks initiating a grab/free grapple in the middle of a full attack would prevent one from continuing the full attack. being grappled yourself doesn't prevent one from full attacking, after all.
Probably because I am overthinking things and confusing myself, and getting my head wrapped too much around the maintain action.
Sounds like you've all worked it out reasonably anyway; I'm content to leave any other vagaries in the hands of the GM running the combat.