Ok this came up last night in my game last night.
the PC's entered a room with an enemy in the rafters 10ft above them. One of my players wanted to run up the wall part way and spring off to reach the rafter. The player and I (the DM) disagreed as to the DC of the acrobatics check. Here is the break down of both our logic.
Player's logic:
Runs up the wall 5ft then makes the high jump for the last bit of distance, the average person can reach 3ft over their head, so the last bit of distance. making the DC 8 for a 2ft jump.
DM's logic:
see no rules for Jackie Chan-ing the walls to help in a jump check. I figured the DC at 44. DC 12 for the first 3ft then a +4 to the DC per foot after the original 3ft, so 7ft * 4= 28, 28+12= 44.
Later during the same fight the Jackie Chan wanta be player tried to get another player (one playing a 6' 5" half-orc) to try and cut the rafters out from under the enemy using his great axe.
Player logic:
the half-orc was 6' 5" wielding a 4ft long weapon so he would be able to hit the rafters at 10ft.
DM's logic:
the great-axe is not a reach weapon so he could not have reached the rafters.
while the player took my rulings with a grain of salt during the game, he did express he dislike over my calling after the game.
I still can't find any thing that backs my player...so any help would be great.
10ft above them so rafters are 15ft off the ground ? as in 2 squares of empty air above their heads ? and the roof at 20ft ?
If that the case I wonder if in communicating the rafter are 10ft above them your player took that as only 5ft above their heads not 10ft. hence why they were trying what you considered impossible
That aside If you have players in the group who could not engage with the encounter then I would have had some suggestions for things they could do.
e.g. Half Orc could attempt and leg-up/throw combined with the jump of the jackie chan wanna be. in that case 6'5" +3' plus momentum add STR bonus to jump check so with a lunaching pad of near 10ft the jump to the rafter would only have been a further 5ft which a bonus of the half-orc strength to his jump check which would have probabaly been very possible.
Then have that guy tie off and throw down a rope for others.
Or
Have several players throw ropes up to climb up
Or
If it was me I would have set fire to the building and waited for the enemy to burn or get down ;)
the PC's entered a room with an enemy in the rafters 10ft above them. One of my players wanted to run up the wall part way and spring off to reach the rafter. The player and I (the DM) disagreed as to the DC of the acrobatics check. Here is the break down of both our logic.
Player's logic:
Runs up the wall 5ft then makes the high jump for the last bit of distance, the average person can reach 3ft over their head, so the last bit of distance. making the DC 8 for a 2ft jump.DM's logic:
see no rules for Jackie Chan-ing the walls to help in a jump check. I figured the DC at 44. DC 12 for the first 3ft then a +4 to the DC per foot after the original 3ft, so 7ft * 4= 28, 28+12= 44.
20'____|
15'____|10'_E__|
5' ____|
0' ___P|
E = Enemy; P = PC
A PC could make a standing jump 5' with an Acrobatics DC of 20 to gain 5' of height, raising him a square (or a DC 40 to gain 10', or 2 squares, and land on the rafter itself, probably very difficult). The character would then be able reach the rafter above him (at the 10' mark), since it would be in an adjacent square. Though no modifiers are given for being adjacent to a wall, a GM is within his/her rights to grant or deny a circumstance bonus (typically a +2).
20'____|
15'____|
10'_E__| - Rafters
5' ___P|
0' ___^| - Ground
Grabbing the rafter and pulling him/herself up would be treated as a DC 30 Climb check requiring both hands free (overhang or ceiling with handholds only) and take 4 squares of movement, again with GM within his/her rights to apply circumstance modifiers as appropriate.
Later during the same fight the Jackie Chan wanta be player tried to get another player (one playing a 6' 5" half-orc) to try and cut the rafters out from under the enemy using his great axe.
Player logic:
the half-orc was 6' 5" wielding a 4ft long weapon so he would be able to hit the rafters at 10ft.DM's logic:
the great-axe is not a reach weapon so he could not have reached the rafters.while the player took my rulings with a grain of salt during the game, he did express he dislike over my calling after the game.
I still can't find any thing that backs my player...so any help would be great.
In this situation, the GM is correct. If the rafter is 10' above the PC and the PC does not have a reach weapon he would not be able to attack the rafter itself, as he would only be able to reach adjacent squares (5' up). The GM would also be able to reduce damage from the weapon strike of a reach weapon if it would be considered an ineffective tool for damaging the rafter.
jumping 5' high should be do-able for many characters if they have a running start (not from a stand-still),
at which point they should be able to attack/target things that are in the adjacent (above) square, e.g. the rafters.
lunge is also a useful feat here.
how far you can reach to grab a climbing handhold isn't really the same thing as what square you can attack,
i think as far as that goes you can diverge from the dictatorship of the square somewhat...
that might mean jumping 3' high (not enough to change a square) IS enough to put your hands where they need to be
to make a Climb check to haul yourself up, etc.
I would say that such functionality is clearly intended by the rules,
since if there's no possible use for it, there's no reason to have sub-5' Jump increments be POSSIBLE.
I would do similar when I'm just worried about how many Actions I will be spending,
e.g. jumping is the fastest so you can jump as high as you can, and then Climb a wall from that point,
starting from a higher point and using the slower Climb rate (which is a special thing unless you have a Climb speed).
how far you can reach to grab a climbing handhold isn't really the same thing as what square you can attack
You can pick up items in adjacent squares without measuring arm length. Squares are an abstraction of reach.
I would say that such functionality is clearly intended by the rules, since if there's no possible use for it, there's no reason to have sub-5' Jump increments be POSSIBLE.
Sure there would. According to the Environment chapter of the CRB, low walls and similar obstacles are 3' high and require 2 squares of land movement to pass. Jumping 3' of height as part of movement to pass the obstacle would ignore the speed reduction.
see no rules for Jackie Chan-ing the walls to help in a jump check.
Just because there are no rules in the books for doing something doesn't mean it's impossible or that it doesn't help. The advantage of a human GM is that a human can think and not rule strictly "by the book" the way a computer GM would.
This is where circumstance bonuses come into play. Give the player a +2 circumstance modifier because its reasonable to see where a running start and a wall could help. It also doesn't make it game breaking.
while the player took my rulings with a grain of salt during the game, he did express he dislike over my calling after the game.
I still can't find any thing that backs my player...so any help would be great.
Look at it from the player's perspective. He comes up with what he thinks is a creative idea and is told it doesn't help. He feels frustrated.
If you had said "Roll me a DC 20 jump check and because you use the wall add +2 circumstance modifier. So you can attack. But the enemy has cover because the rafter is in the way. Oh and he gets an AoO and its at a +1 bonus because he's on higher ground." He's happy that he can do something. He feels rewarded for his cleverness. You haven't completely negated the enemy's defense position entirely. Everyone is happy.
I've found during my years of being a GM, that the worst thing you can say to a player is no, when the rules don't cover a topic. Make them roll. Make the DC really high. Make it risky. Do whatever, but don't tell them they can't.
One of the devs has previously said that your average medium character can reach to 8ft for the purpose of (for example) grabbing the top edge of a wall. So a PC standing on the ground with a 8ft high wall in front of him can grab the ledge and climb up without a jump check.
I would argue that to effectively attack an enemy standing on the wall, you'd need to have about 3ft more reach.
Taken to the problem described in the opening post, an enemy standing on a rafter that is 10ft above the PC, and the PC needs to get that extra 3ft to actually attack into the enemy's square - but also that the first 8ft are free; means:
Target: 13ft
Free: 8ft
Jump DC: 5ft x 4 = DC 20
Using the wall as run-up: +2 circumstance bonus
Assuming that the PC completes the jump by landing on the ground again, the enemy gets an AOO for the PC leaving a threatened square. This AOO happens after the PC's attack (since it is triggered by the PC leaving a threatened square).
Essentially, "Some call me Tim" has it exactly right by my calculations.
Well then this breaks down into a question of how many skills can you use in a round and not eat up all your actions.
Could that player have jumped high enough to reach the rafter (Jump check), then pulled himself up (climb check), finished his movement the turn next to the target. If so would he have provoked an AoO?
Well then this breaks down into a question of how many skills can you use in a round and not eat up all your actions.
Could that player have jumped high enough to reach the rafter (Jump check), then pulled himself up (climb check), finished his movement the turn next to the target. If so would he have provoked an AoO?
Both climbing and acrobatics (jump) are both forms of movement, part of the same move action.
I'd say use 10' of your move to get a running start. Jump up 5' up counts as 5' of movement. Then to pull yourself up climb 5' (at 1/4 your speed) so that counts as 20' of movement. So 35' of movement altogether. So, a barbarian with a 40' move could do it as a single move action. You could also elect to increase the climb DC by 5 to do accelerated climbing at half your speed. Which would mean you would only use 25' of movement.
so let see if I'm getting this right.
If my movement is 30ft, I could move 10ft up to a wall, climb up 10ft, if there was another landing 5ft above that I could jump up to the landing, still have 5ft of movement left to close to my target, make a bluff check to feint causing my target to lose it's DEX mod. and attack him all in the same round.
That seems like way to many actions for one person to be taking in a round.
so let see if I'm getting this right.
If my movement is 30ft, I could move 10ft up to a wall, climb up 10ft, if there was another landing 5ft above that I could jump up to the landing, still have 5ft of movement left to close to my target, make a bluff check to feint causing my target to lose it's DEX mod. and attack him all in the same round.
That seems like way to many actions for one person to be taking in a round.
Kind of. Climbing eats up 4x your movement rate. So the most a person with 30 ft movement could move is 7.5ft. But if they double moved (total 60ft) they could climb 15ft in a round. Or they could walk 15ft, jump 5ft, then climb 10ft (4x 10= 40ft).
15ft + 5ft + 40ft= 60ft
Also I believe making a feint is a standard action so that last bit about attacking at the end just wouldn't be possible.
Action:
Climbing is part of movement, so it’s generally part of a move action (and may be combined with other types of movement in a move action). Each move action that includes any climbing requires a separate Climb check. Catching yourself or another falling character doesn’t take an action.
Uthak, you are right. That is too many actions for a normal character to do in one round, but there are ways around the limitations.
1. Running start to a 10 foot wall would let you make a jump check to get nearly all the way up it. Starting your climb from 5 or more feet up would reduce the DC of an Accelerated Climb to a manageable level. That would let you get up the wall and roll to your feet pretty quick. It might look something like this (note that the guy in the video is purposefully moving slowly and takes about 3 seconds to get from standing to up and over the wall)
2. At that point you'd be on top of the landing in front of another 5 foot incline. You no longer have a running start so a 5' jump is difficult but not impossible, especially if you have high ranks in Acrobatics. For a mid-level monk it might as well be walking.
At that point you would still have a Standard Action left, so we can move onto the second half of your proposed action.
3a. Feinting is normally a Standard Action, so you could do it, but it would end your turn. If successful, the enemy would be flat-footed against your attack in the next round. This would still be the case with Improved Feint because taking two move actions in a round still ends your turn.
3b. Assuming you have a way to Feint as a free action (there are a few, but they aren't easy to come by), you could make an attack as a standard action, gaining sneak attack.
3c. Or, you could skip Feint all together and just attack. If you're a Barbarian, you don't care about Feinting. If you're a Rogue/Ninja you only care about the Feint for Sneak Attack. Instead, make a stealth check when you're up against either wall (where you have Cover from the guy at the top). If they fail their Perception check, then when you reach the top right next to them, they will be flat-footed to you. It's a very Ninja-esque move. Vanish against the wall below them, then pop up in front of them with a surprise throat-stab.
so let see if I'm getting this right.
If my movement is 30ft, I could move 10ft up to a wall, climb up 10ft, if there was another landing 5ft above that I could jump up to the landing, still have 5ft of movement left to close to my target, make a bluff check to feint causing my target to lose it's DEX mod. and attack him all in the same round.
That seems like way to many actions for one person to be taking in a round.
It is. As Doomed stated, feinting is a standard (or move action, if you have improved feint).
You also haven't accounted for the reduced speed while climbing.
By my reckoning, you've used two move actions to move 50' and two standard actions to feint and attack.
In my example, I've moved a total 25', during which you have to make two skill checks (Acrobatics DC 20 and Climb DC 20). Here's how it breaks down: normal move 10', jump up 5' (roll Acrobatics check), grab the rafter and pull yourself up 5' using accelerated climbing rule so it counts as 10' (roll Climb check), All of which uses 25' of movement. If you needed to close 5' to attack you would need another Acrobatics check to move along the rafter at +5 to the DC to do it at full speed (roll Acrobatics DC 20 for a 6" wide rafter).
Even with +15 skill modifiers for both acrobatics and climb, you will only succeed on making all three in a row about half the time.
Obviously this is not something a heavily armed and armored fighter is going to be able to pull off. However I could easily see this sequence in a Jackie Chan fight scene.