The subject might be misleading, but I was wondering where you all would draw the line when it comes to a party reset/rebuild? When is it too late for another group of harty adventures to pick up the torch dropped by the last group who met their untimely dimise and Karoug's plan is to far along to stop?
I pretty much have desided that if my party dies in last book it is done, Karzoug wins. Where do you all stand on this? I ask because my group is started Sin's of the Saviors and Frozenmaw had his way with my party a couple weeks ago. There was a fairly contrived escape and resurection of 2/3 of the gourp.
Anyone care to chime in?
Edit: I did do a little searching around, but I am at work and didn't want to spead a ton of time researching... Looks bad when the boss is roaming around.
Thanks all
I would consider this from an interpersonal level, rather than a game level.
Suppose you told your group, "OK, you screwed up. You lose. Time to start a new campaign."
Would they accept it, and say, "Oh, well, better luck next time," or would some of them walk out on you?
It depends strongly on your group, and we on the outside can't tell you what will happen.
Yes, it is very cheesy to have parties escape TPKs over and over again, especially if they're getting themselves into the TPK situations through carelessness or bad tactics. So I definitely see the temptation to say, "It's over." Especially if this isn't the first TPK you've 'saved' them from. In my particular group, I think they would be OK with calling it a wrap and starting a different campaign. But it's a very roleplay-heavy group and they don't mind creating new characters with new personalities and new backgrounds.
But before you do that, think very carefully and ask yourself whether you're going to alienate your group doing it. Some people take campaigns and losses *very* personally.
Thanks for the insight, both.
the David: I have thought of hitting the rewind button, but only humored it. It is a good idea. I will have to put some serious thought into it if we have a party wipe. Thank you for bringing that back into the light.
NobodysHome: Every good point. My group sounds to be very similar to yours, roleplay-heavy and like character creation (they are also power-gamers as well, luckily they self-police.) From an interpersonal level they might not be too happy, well, at least one of them could be pissed. The others would be disapointed but okay. I don't think there would be a mutiny as we are all good friends, however I don't relish the idea of pissing them off. Tuff call.
Thanks for the insight, both.
the David: I have thought of hitting the rewind button, but only humored it. It is a good idea. I will have to put some serious thought into it if we have a party wipe. Thank you for bringing that back into the light.
NobodysHome: Every good point. My group sounds to be very similar to yours, roleplay-heavy and like character creation (they are also power-gamers as well, luckily they self-police.) From an interpersonal level they might not be too happy, well, at least one of them could be pissed. The others would be disapointed but okay. I don't think there would be a mutiny as we are all good friends, however I don't relish the idea of pissing them off. Tuff call.
So how many TPKs have you prevented by GM fiat so far?
My group nearly got wasted by a group of goblin dogs in the thistle tunnels in book 1, solely because of that -4 to hit, -4 to AC rule, so once half the party was down I went ahead and gave the goblin dogs a "-2 because the GM hates you" penalty. It was enough, but I consider that a 'very minor' TPK prevention, because the rules on fighting in the tunnels were just too harsh for 2nd-level characters. (And I'm not 100% sure it would have been a TPK. The bard rolled near-max healing to wake up the paladin, and she woke up the sorcerer, so there's a chance they would have survived without it.)
I've already made plans for Xanesha, since her infamy precedes her, and the party will get a one-time 'total party resurrection' that I've been slowly working into the plot.
After that, they're on their own to sink or swim. We'll see how things go...
Well there is also the 'If I end things here I have a $60 doorstop 'thing(Or 100 with the deluxe edition).
Instead of retconning and resses, tell the players to work on a replacement character or two and try to work on a connection with the PCs. Say a fellow clan-member who followed after the PC but was too late to rescue him. They could be sent out to investigate the absence of the dead PCs and pick up the story.
You could also 'allow' them to lose. If they end up losing to Karzoug at the end, it would likely provide a memorable encounter they will remember for a very long time to come. Let the dice fall where they may, and see what happens.
My belief is that he's asking about pre-Karzoug encounters. Yeah, the final encounter with the BBEG should always be "winner take all". No fudging!
(Well, unless the first two or three BBEGs win. Then maybe you cut the players some slack...)
|
If they died in the last book, I would end it. The next campaign, though would likely involve the consequences of failure. Perhaps it would lead to a climactic battle with the big K, but I don't believe in shake and bake characters, especially ones that will basically only be around for a few battles, for which they have little or no connection to.
I would, as a GM, even consider ending it, if they got TPK'd in book 5.
It would take more work of course for future adventures if Karzoug won, but having his new kingdom replace all the old places has potential.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey all, thanks again for your input.
NobodysHome: GM fiat has saved their hides 3 times now. Once with Xanesha, once in the Giant Fortress (basement room 11, the beefy hill giant), and of course Frozenmaw.
Well there is also the 'If I end things here I have a $60 doorstop 'thing(Or 100 with the deluxe edition).
Instead of retconning and resses, tell the players to work on a replacement character or two and try to work on a connection with the PCs. Say a fellow clan-member who followed after the PC but was too late to rescue him. They could be sent out to investigate the absence of the dead PCs and pick up the story.
Most of them do have alternative character options planned out, that wouldn't be an issue. It comes down to, for me, when does Big K win? How many chances do you give PC's/players?
You could also 'allow' them to lose. If they end up losing to Karzoug at the end, it would likely provide a memorable encounter they will remember for a very long time to come. Let the dice fall where they may, and see what happens.
Absolutely, if he wipes the floor with them in the end it is over. I have let the dice do the work on several times and pc's have been lost. There are no original party members left(which sucks), the hand of fate has made sure of that.
I believe I am on the same page with Aeshuura. TPK in the last book = end. I too don't like to have one off pc's, players without a connection to their characters seems very hollow. I am sure my players would agree to that as well.
Those are three pretty tough encounters.
Not only are they tough, they're pretty spread out. Book 2, Book 4, and Book 5. I figure one 'miraculous rescue' per book is acceptable if you have a party that's big on role-playing and down on over-optimization or rolling up new characters. For example, my party is about to enter Foxglove Manor, and they have given away every single item of treasure they've gotten in the module so far. How is a party of non-optimized characters who won't even keep the gold they find going to manage to take on Xanesha? They have one magic weapon and one suit of magic armor in the entire group, and they're LOVING the campaign. But the AP isn't written for such over-generous souls, and will crush them like bugs if I don't take steps to mitigate things.
I 'rescued' my party once in Book 1, I've actually already started a side plot to Book 2 just to resurrect them once Xanesha slaughters them, and there's a possibility I'll plan another one, depending on how they play.
My overall take is: If the party goes in, 'guns blazing', with no preliminary research or tactics, then I let the dice roll where they will, because I have little patience for 'no-brainer' parties. If the party does everything in its power to plan ahead, rolls a bunch of Knowledge skills, uses good tactics, and still goes down because an ogre happened to roll a triple critical on the party barbarian, I'm a heck of a lot more lenient.
As Evil Lincoln says, your party fell 3 times to three of the tougher encounters in the path. (Xanesha should just be planned as an automatic party resurrection. And then give her the stinger tail the author originally planned before his testers said, "Too much!") For the purposes of storytelling, I like letting them survive.
If they fall again in Book 5, they're being kind of careless. If they fall again in Book 6, they're being really careless. So I guess my take is that they've used up all but one of their "get out of jail free" cards, and once that one's used up you just let it roll.
|
|
As a DM, I try to avoid TPKs (They are such a bummer!) with the exception being the BBEG at the end. For instance my party just recently passed Xanesha, but not without her almost taking out the party. To save the party, I had the Clocktower collapse from the stress of the bells falling and weakening the already unstable outer walls of the structure. Xanesha focused on getting her belongings and escaping the collapse. The party focused on collecting their dead and getting off the tower. The party would meet Xanesha twice more at 7th level before finally taking out the notorious villain (see story).
So my suggestions is to plan possible DM fiats with the major encounters up until the end.
Cheers,
Mazra