How is this not conclusive? There is nothing to infer. The text says exactly what benefits the enhancement provides. That's all it provides. What other interpretation is there that could reasonably use the information provided? Remember that the only two things you can have is the armor bonus and enhancement bonuses. There is nothing to even suggest that there is any other adjustment.
I think it's pretty conclusive as well. In order for it not to be conclusive, I think you have to work from the position that polymorph subschool effects cause the armor to be absorbed into the new form but NOT remove any penalties or other non-beneficial effects for said armor. That would then imply that armor bonuses from the armor would be virtually the only thing negated by the polymorph effect since those are specifically called out as not being in effect.
Frankly, I don't see that as being very likely the game designers' intents at all. Nor do I believe the argument that because the disposition of the penalties is not explicitly called out we can't infer what happens to them is very strong.
The wild property allows the druid to gain the benefit of his melded armor's armor bonus (and its magical enhancement). Full stop.
I agree that's the way it should work.It does seem a little cheesy to me to let the druid bypass non-proficiency penalties this way though.
It's a +3 bonus equivalent on magical armor. That's not small. Granted, with dragonhide armor, you can add some pretty high armor bonuses, but at double the cost of masterwork armor +16,000 for +1 armor you're spending a lot of cash to do it. And thanks to the better balancing that beast shape provides to wildshaping stats compared to 3.5's wildshape, things are a lot less out of control in PF.
What sucks for a druid in wild armor he's not proficient in, that is crazy heavy and has all of those armor check and speed/encumbrance penalties etc., is probable roleplaying restrictions and therefore ALWAYS wanting to be in wild shape, so this scenario only maxes out its benefits at fairly high-level play.
Heavy armor takes forever (in combat time) to remove and don, most civilized societies aren't going to allow wild animals or elementals within the community limits or indoors (although once the druid is high enough level for tiny animals this isn't much of an issue), and while wearing it in normal humanoid form the character is going to be much slower and klutz-ier (<-word? :-P).
As a GM I say go for it, but don't expect to have an easy ride.
Oh, and I agree with everyone who says you only get the bonuses from wild armor while in wildshape and not any of the penalties, anything differing from that is a house-rule.
Talk amongst yourselves...
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LazarX,
I have to assume the "cheese" you're referring to is that a polymorphed PC can get around the body slot limitation, if his new form can wear items and melded items are still providing bonuses but not considered 'worn'.
Huh. Perhaps that deserves its own thread.
I'm amazed that this discussion is continuing. There really is only one way to read the rules without adding your own interpretation into it.
1. Wild shaping while wearing normal armor melds the armor into your new form with no benefits OR penalties from that armor.
2. Wild armor states that you keep the armor bonus (including any enhancement bonus to armor bonus) when wild shaped. It does NOT state that you keep the penalties associated with the armor.
3. THEREFORE, when you wild shape with wild armor on, the armor melds into your new form, but you get to keep the armor bonus, and ignore any associated penalties. THAT'S IT!
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Some are saying you keep the penalties from common nonmagical armor.
That's absurd.
Edit with rules quote so that I don't get smacked down:
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
bolded by me, obviously.
"Items that provide constant bonuses... continue to function when melded... with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function."
1. The exception to the general rule is that any item that provides an armor or shield bonus ceases to function when it melds into the new form.
2. This means that armor or shields cease to function. Period. CEASE TO FUNCTION. That means no bonuses, no penalties.
3. Consequently, any other magic item that provides an armor or shield bonus would cease to function (like a Robe of the Archmagi). I thought that was an interesting little side-effect there.
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Even without Wild armor, you only lose the "armor bonus", I think the enhancement bonus stays.
I'm amazed that this discussion is continuing. There really is only one way to read the rules without adding your own interpretation into it.1. Wild shaping while wearing normal armor melds the armor into your new form with no benefits OR penalties from that armor.
2. Wild armor states that you keep the armor bonus (including any enhancement bonus to armor bonus) when wild shaped. It does NOT state that you keep the penalties associated with the armor.
I... what?? No, you don't keep the enhancement bonus to your Armor Bonus. Armor bonuses go away when polymorphed. I JUST QUOTED THE RULE THAT SAYS SO.
The armor and shield bonuses cease to function. It says nothing about anything else.Hmmm. I assumed that meant the specific "Armor bonus" and "Shield bonus", ie the base increase to AC from the type of armor or shield you're using. Are other people reading that as "any bonus from armor or shields, including the base protection, but also any enchantment or other properties"?
I would assume that the armor and shield cease to function, period. That should include any magical enhancement to the armor or shield bonuses and any other properties of the armor.
I say it makes the armor wild shape along with you into barding. A druid wearing wild armor shapeshifts into a polar bear with the same armor changed into barding. Like the intelligent polar bears in The Golden Compass.
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Except it doesn't say that. It saysI would assume that the armor and shield cease to function, period. That should include any magical enhancement to the armor or shield bonuses and any other properties of the armor.
The armor and shield bonuses cease to function. It says nothing about anything else.Hmmm. I assumed that meant the specific "Armor bonus" and "Shield bonus", ie the base increase to AC from the type of armor or shield you're using. Are other people reading that as "any bonus from armor or shields, including the base protection, but also any enchantment or other properties"?
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).So you assume that "armor and shield bonuses" is a generic term referring to anything coming from the armor or shield, not the specific typed armor bonus and shield bonus?
I can see that and it kind of makes sense. I think my reading make sense too, though a closer look at the enhancement bonus suggests that it effectively increase the armor bonus, so it might be included, even under the narrower reading.
If you're right, I really wish they wouldn't use technical terms in non-technical ways.
Correct, Enhancement bonuses are not a type of bonus that inceases AC in and of itself. You get Enhancement bonuses to Armor bonus, Shield bonus, etc. So, the enhancement bonus on your armor increases its armor bonus, and then that is negated when it melds forms.
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I say it makes the armor wild shape along with you into barding. A druid wearing wild armor shapeshifts into a polar bear with the same armor changed into barding. Like the intelligent polar bears in The Golden Compass.
That is absolutely not what the Wild enhancement does. Look at this line:
"The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen."
That means that the armor still melds with you, it just keeps providing its armor bonus.
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cartmanbeck,
I agree with you about how this should be ruled, but the text you quote is causing confusion for good reason. Following proper grammatical format, this:
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
means that armor and shield bonuses cease to function, and doesn't specify the items themselves.
An annoying nitpick, but that's the nature of the beast.
Melissa, I'm pretty sure your post has a contradiction: you said that armor bonuses include magical qualities like light fortification, but then disallows the other magical qualities.
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cartmanbeck,
I agree with you about how this should be ruled, but the text you quote is causing confusion for good reason. Following proper grammatical format, this:
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).means that armor and shield bonuses cease to function, and doesn't specify the items themselves.
An annoying nitpick, but that's the nature of the beast.
Melissa, I'm pretty sure your post has a contradiction: you said that armor bonuses include magical qualities like light fortification, but then disallows the other magical qualities.
I can see it being a little confusing there, but it still seems extremely obvious to me that RAW works the way I stated.
LazarX, if a PC is carrying 200 lbs. of gear in a backpack and pouches and such, and they polymorph into a form that melds said baggage/gear, would you still count it against their encumbrance?
You don't get the penalties, but you don't get any of the special armor abilities either.
If that armor has an energy resistance ability, it will not apply whilst wildshaped.
In the end, it's a +3 ability, and you get one thing from it, that's it.
I disagree. You keep all ongoing abilities of magic items that are not armor or shield bonuses. Seeing as Energy Resistance is an ongoing benefit, you keep it when melded, even if you are not wearing wild armor.
I can see it being a little confusing there, but it still seems extremely obvious to me that RAW works the way I stated.
I agree with you, however we're interrupting the rules two different ways. With Polymorph we're saying that it is absorbed, and bonuses go away, so the penalites must too even though it doesn't say they do. Then when we look at Wild we say it's aborbed and the bonuses come back, but since it doesn't say the penalties come back they must not.
In one, nothing says the penalites go away we just assume they do. In the other it doesn't say the penalties come back so we assume they don't. It's the same issue in both cases but we're reading the rules differently.
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I say it makes the armor wild shape along with you into barding. A druid wearing wild armor shapeshifts into a polar bear with the same armor changed into barding. Like the intelligent polar bears in The Golden Compass.
That might be a cool special effect of a suit of armor, but if I made armor that would do that, I might call it Morphic and peg it at no more than a +1 equivalent or maybe a flat charge to the armor. A power like that, that bards the form (and has its own attendant penalties), is not worth the +3 bonus equivalency.
I agree with you, however we're interrupting the rules two different ways. With Polymorph we're saying that it is absorbed, and bonuses go away, so the penalites must too even though it doesn't say they do. Then when we look at Wild we say it's aborbed and the bonuses come back, but since it doesn't say the penalties come back they must not.In one, nothing says the penalites go away we just assume they do. In the other it doesn't say the penalties come back so we assume they don't. It's the same issue in both cases but we're reading the rules differently.
This is really not a problem. They don't need to spell everything out if we can reasonably make the right inferences - such as armor that's absorbed in a polymorphic effect has no appreciable effect on the creature in the new form. The inapplicability of the armor/shield bonus is expressly called out (which wouldn't be necessary at all if they didn't also specify that items with constant bonuses items still work) but we can assume that anything absorbed into the form isn't hindering it like it would be if it were worn.
On the other hand, the wild property establishes a specific exception to the armor being absorbed - part of it still has an effect - the armor/shield bonus. Since the armor isn't suddenly being worn by the transformed creature, we can't assume any other effects of the armor apply.
Here's the problem.
Wild Shape says nothing about the Wild armor enhancement.
What the Wild Enhancement says about the armor and wild shape is not complete. What we don't have is an answer about the Wild Enhancement that is not based on reading the wild shape power backwards. The complete answer on how the Wild Enchantment works on armor and wildshape should be contained totally within the description for the enhancement. Unfortunately it's not.
It is. You gain the armor/shield/enhancement bonuses. There you go. Why isn't that complete?
Because it says nothing about the rest of the package. That's not complete. Armor bonuses do not exist separately from the armor.It is. You gain the armor/shield/enhancement bonuses. There you go. Why isn't that complete?Here's the problem.
Wild Shape says nothing about the Wild armor enhancement.
What the Wild Enhancement says about the armor and wild shape is not complete. What we don't have is an answer about the Wild Enhancement that is not based on reading the wild shape power backwards. The complete answer on how the Wild Enchantment works on armor and wildshape should be contained totally within the description for the enhancement. Unfortunately it's not.
So what you're saying is that it is complete, but you just don't like the answer. The RAW doesn't say what you think it should say, ergo the RAW must be wrong.
Yeah, that's not how it works.
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You only get rid of armor and shield bonuses from armor and shields according to the polymorph rules. Static effects like slick or energy resistances from armor would remain, like effects from rings and amulets and headbands.
Armor bonuses from bracers of armor or Mage armor spell would persist in wild shaped form
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You only get rid of armor and shield bonuses from armor and shields according to the polymorph rules. Static effects like slick or energy resistances from armor would remain, like effects from rings and amulets and headbands.
Armor bonuses from bracers of armor or Mage armor spell would persist in wild shaped form
Actually, it says that all armor and shield bonuses go away. I agree that spells like mage armor would stick around, because you are still the target, so the spell would just affect your new form, but I don't think that bracers of armor would keep working, the way it's written.
Wow. Lack of inclusion doesn't mean exclusion. You could fill an encyclopedia with things the rules don't specifically say. You have to assume some common sense on the part of the reader otherwise the Core book would be 10,000 pages long trying to cover every little caveat. I don't see the point in trying to nitpick away a major bonus on a major item.
With a bad mindeset and poor preconceptions, I can go into the rulebook and say that things don't work the way they do by referencing other parts of the book too. I'd still be wrong though. I can't believe the designers intended the effect to be so complicated with so much cross-referincing needed for it to make sense.
Play the game however you want but don't try to tell me that a "j" isn't a "j" because someone left out the dot and no one specifically said it was a "j".
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An armor bonus and a shield bonus are codified terms in pathfinder rules. They refer to the bonus derived from armor/shield to your AC. E.g. +3 from studded leather is the armor's "armor bonus".
That and enhancement bonuses to it, is what disappears.
Other static enchantments like slick are not lumped into a category of bonuses and shut down because you consider them a bonus tied to armor. Especially not when static bonuses that do not require activation are called out as remaining.
And Bracers of armor would definitely still function. They can be worn after the transformation the same way your party could help you into barding after turning into a horse.
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Seraphimpunk,
It appears to me that you are reading selectively.
I am not "lumping" static enchantments into a category of bonuses, I am saying they are not bonuses with the exception of a few, i.e. Armor, Sacred, Luck, etc.
That hardly matters, because in my interpretation the melded items that usually provide those effects are not considered 'worn' and are thus not providing the possessor anything. Polymorph then goes on to say that you still retain bonuses from melded items except for two types of bonuses, Armor and Shield.
I support the idea of puting on Bracers of Armor after being polymorphed. They would not be 'melded' inside the PC and would function normally.
Good god this thing is still going on? This thread was done a page or so ago. This is the rules forum. You'd think once the rules were shown on the matter the thread would end, not turn into "My little D&D the way I wish it would be". ^~^