So I'm going to start running Carrion Crown soon, and a player approached me with an updated Dhampir race he created from the ARG:
Racial Qualities
Type:
Humanoid (0rp)
Size:
Medium (0rp)
Base Speed:
Normal Speed (0rp)
Ability Score Modifier:
Standard (0rp)
+2 Strength, +2 Cha, -2 Con
Language:
Standard (0rp)
Racial Traits:
Defense
Fast Healing 1 (6rp)
Moon-Touched Damage Reduction (3rp)
Resist Level Drain (1rp)
Feat and Skill:
Quick Reactions (2rp)
Magical:
Constant Spell-Like Divination -Detect Undead- (3rp)
Senses:
Darkvision 60ft. (2rp)
Weakness:
Light Blindness (-2rp)
Negative Energy Affinity (-1rp)
None of this really concerns me except for the Constant Spell-like Divination: Detect Undead. I have a feeling this ability could be easily abused in an undead-heavy campaign like Carrion Crown. What do you guys think? Do you think this would possibly derail the campaign or ruin the spooky "dead guy sneaks up behind and grabs you" feel?
It's not nearly as useful or as game-breaking as you fear.
First thing you can do about this: make your player be the one to remember he has this power. Tell him up front that you won't be adding "oh and there are undead auras here, here, and here" to your descriptions. He has to be the one to ask "do I detect undead here?"
Second thing: remember, it takes three rounds to pick out locations.
Third: Dude, this is Ustalav. To play up the spookiness it is within your rights, and I would even recommend doing this, to just have all of Ustalav glowing with a dim aura of undeath. The whole country. Certain spooky areas (Harrowstone prison, Feldgrau, of course Gallowspire, and more) might have stronger auras.
Personally, come the final book I'd say that Detect Undead would be completely useless. Everything glows far too bright as the walls, the land, the atmosphere itself seethes, pulses with undead energy.
Actually, you know what, let the player have this. However, warn your player that you are using that PC's power to YOUR advantage, not theirs. If you can pull it off you'll add a whole new level of sensory terror and now Ustalav itself seems to despise them, work against them, seems to crave the return of the Whispering Tyrant.
Ah, old school Ravenloft style. That's pretty much what I had in mind. I'm glad to hear it's not as terribly over-usable as I thought.
It will not detect haunts before they manifest.
It does not get through line of effect, which is a big issue in the first module.
It usually won't give a PC more than a round at best to notice what's about to happen.
If he lives past the next couple modules with his negative energy affinity (which is a HUGE drawback, unless your party is geared for it), there are other classes that can spam it almost as much. Remember that as written, there are no Inflict Negative Energy potions or wands in the first two modules, so while flavor-wise the Dhampir is neat, survivability is a big issue. Let him do it, and if he lives, kudos.
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Personally I would not allow that race build--many game breaking elements. Fast healing 1 nearly totally negates the penalty of negative energy affinity since you will full heal in between combats. Other stuff about that race build is highly suspect.
It will not detect haunts before they manifest.
It does not get through line of effect, which is a big issue in the first module.
It usually won't give a PC more than a round at best to notice what's about to happen.
If he lives past the next couple modules with his negative energy affinity (which is a HUGE drawback, unless your party is geared for it), there are other classes that can spam it almost as much. Remember that as written, there are no Inflict Negative Energy potions or wands in the first two modules, so while flavor-wise the Dhampir is neat, survivability is a big issue. Let him do it, and if he lives, kudos.
What do you mean "Line of Effect"? As in spell effects and haunts? (still learning the system.)
Also, won't his fast healing 1 kinda negate the lack of needing healing potions?
Personally I would not allow that race build--many game breaking elements. Fast healing 1 nearly totally negates the penalty of negative energy affinity since you will full heal in between combats. Other stuff about that race build is highly suspect.
That's Part Two of what concerns me. I believe he's going hungry ghost monk with this race, and I'm am concerned about fast healing shenanigans.
Plus, the fast healing mixed with the damage reduction would mean that the small damage getting in would be healed up damn fast, correct?
Also, am I correct in thinking that Moon Touched Damage Reduction gives him DR 5/Silver? Does that mean only silver gets past his 5 points of damage reduction?
If so, would it be unfair to ask that it be changed to DR 5/Magic and Silver?
I'm thinking the easiest fix would be to do that, and house rule it so that his Damage Resistance and Fast healing don't work in the daytime. Most of the campaign takes place at night, so it shouldn't be too much of a hindrance, and I think it adds to the "i'm part vampire" race origin, as well as the danger of being an outcast in Carrion Crown.
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Yeah, the fast healing and DR are big problems, the detect undead isn't so much.
ANebulousMistress's suggestions are good. I would suggest that you mention weird, random things unrelated to the plot that just happen to have undead auras:
The back of an old butcher shop - maybe a long-dead former butcher buried some meat there that was a little too..."twitchy" to sell. The rats in an abandoned grain mill - that's how they've survived so long after the grain all ran out. A single bone lying in a garbage heap.
If I were you, I'd add a side-quest in the final chapter to get him a method of actually suppressing that power (like a special item or something), and if he didn't have it suppressed he'd be constantly dazzled, shaken, or sickened by the all-pervading miasma of undeath at Gallowspire.
What do you mean "Line of Effect"? As in spell effects and haunts? (still learning the system.)
Also, won't his fast healing 1 kinda negate the lack of needing healing potions?
I've been running Carrion Crown and am up the Schloss. We have a Dhampir PC in our group, and he has almost died five times. Another PC is an Oracle of Life with the Life-Link ability, effectively giving the Dhampir Fast Healing 5 every turn. It's not enough. The issue isn't healing between combat rounds, it's dealing with large chunks of damage that can be dealt in combat, specifically by enemies in the second module. Fast Healing is no substitution for the raw power of a Channel, Cure Moderate Wounds, or any number of others that are the difference between having enough hit points to soak another hit or not. Heck, there are a few enemies in the first module that could put somebody down pretty quick if they didn't have an effective way to mitigate a freakish critical hit or something else. That's why I don't think the Fast Healing is that big of a deal.
I DO think that the DR is a bit overpowered, especially for the first module. Its one thing to be immune to one encounter, another thing to nerf most of the module unless the enemies can critically hit you.
Fast healing means you never have to waste healing items on topping the player up BETWEEN fights. If anything, it saves you from spending money on CLW wands (which aren't exactly pricey). My party has made it to book 3 without a main healer (wizard, bard, inquisitor, druid, monk makes for three that can use cure wands, one that can self heal, and one that has no business being hit anyway) but I do worry about them in the near future, heh.
DR is far more troubling that Fast Healing. That said, since he can't be healed by normal means may make things a bit easier. It isn't like people are going to be selling wands of cause harm quite as readily as CLW.
I think NebulousMistress nailed how to handle the detect undead, if you allow it.
I'd say "hell no" to the fast healing and DR 5/silver. Especially the damage reduction. I think Broken Moon is the only part of the adventure path where the enemies are equipped to beat to DR/silver.
He's also getting Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Frankly, I'd just make him stick to the actual dhampir that's in the ARG. Having an "updated" dhampir when there's already an official one seems weird.
Had the same problem with a player who had a new PC just prior entering Harrowstone. Nearly at the door entrance, he told me he had the Ghostsight Ravenloft feat (You can see creatures in the Near Ethereal).
It’s not detect undead, but that could have screwed the dungeon, so I thought about it and added these limitations, for your information. Some of this can help you.
1) rule explanation: “As a standard action (“use supernatural ability”), you have to concentrate on this feat to try to see ethereal creatures. It doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.”
As other people said here, it’s something you have to concentrate upon, as a standard action, on your turn. He doesn’t see ghosts (or detect undead) all the time.
That could make an adventure derail if for example, he passes through a city and sees ghost (or detect them in your case). My campaign is free flow enough like this already, so since there are ghosts in every city cities, being able to see them all the time could wreck the adventure if they try to find out about these passing by ghosts.
And indeed, I ruled unmanifested haunts can’t be seen (or detected).
2) a fun thing, straight from the RL feat: “you are strangely attuned to the Ethereal Plane. Ethereal creatures can see you unusually clearly and must succeed at a Spot check at DC 15 to realize that you are not actually in the Near Ethereal as well. These creatures may even be drawn to you out of curiosity, desperation, or malice.”
That can be a serious drawback sometimes, and a caution not to use the feat (or ability) without thinking first.
You could have that damphir having a special aura too?
3) I added: “Sometimes, a ghost can choose to remain unseen from you. When you activate this supernatural ability, you always make a d20 Spot check in case of this situation, plus your usual SPOT bonus, and a + 2 bonus from this supernatural ability. A ghost succeeds to hide from you with a better Hide check.”
I added this as a blunt DM tool, because sometimes a cool DM plot would be exposed flat and not working at all if a PC could find out quickly there is a ghost at work.
Also, as another person said, ghosts can enter walls or floor and remain unseen, since they noticed the PC to be somewhat special (and not a common mortal soul, see point #2).
Joël
But that said, the feat still is a pain in the DM's behind for this specific adventure ;)
Joël
I DO think that the DR is a bit overpowered, especially for the first module. Its one thing to be immune to one encounter, another thing to nerf most of the module unless the enemies can critically hit you.
That is definitely a concern. What do you think of limiting the ability to only working during the night? Daytime weakness, being vampire blooded and all.
Had the same problem with a player who had a new PC just prior entering Harrowstone. Nearly at the door entrance, he told me he had the Ghostsight Ravenloft feat (You can see creatures in the Near Ethereal).
It’s not detect undead, but that could have screwed the dungeon, so I thought about it and added these limitations, for your information. Some of this can help you.
1) rule explanation: “As a standard action (“use supernatural ability”), you have to concentrate on this feat to try to see ethereal creatures. It doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.”
As other people said here, it’s something you have to concentrate upon, as a standard action, on your turn. He doesn’t see ghosts (or detect undead) all the time.
That could make an adventure derail if for example, he passes through a city and sees ghost (or detect them in your case). My campaign is free flow enough like this already, so since there are ghosts in every city cities, being able to see them all the time could wreck the adventure if they try to find out about these passing by ghosts.
And indeed, I ruled unmanifested haunts can’t be seen (or detected).
2) a fun thing, straight from the RL feat: “you are strangely attuned to the Ethereal Plane. Ethereal creatures can see you unusually clearly and must succeed at a Spot check at DC 15 to realize that you are not actually in the Near Ethereal as well. These creatures may even be drawn to you out of curiosity, desperation, or malice.”
That can be a serious drawback sometimes, and a caution not to use the feat (or ability) without thinking first.
You could have that damphir having a special aura too?
3) I added: “Sometimes, a ghost can choose to remain unseen from you. When you activate this supernatural ability, you always make a d20 Spot check in case of this situation, plus your usual SPOT bonus, and a + 2 bonus from this supernatural ability. A ghost succeeds to hide from you with a better Hide check.”
I added this as a blunt DM tool, because sometimes a cool DM...
Nice. Thank you for the explanation and ideas. So it sounds like there are some work-arounds, but that it's still going to be kind of a pain.
I think NebulousMistress nailed how to handle the detect undead, if you allow it.
I'd say "hell no" to the fast healing and DR 5/silver. Especially the damage reduction. I think Broken Moon is the only part of the adventure path where the enemies are equipped to beat to DR/silver.
He's also getting Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Frankly, I'd just make him stick to the actual dhampir that's in the ARG. Having an "updated" dhampir when there's already an official one seems weird.
He wanted to be some kind of hybrid dhampir (think underworld or blade 2), and while I actually like the idea for the race, I almost feel like some of these abilities should be granted down the line, after a few levels like the fetchlings shadow walk ability.
I would not allow a character to play in my carrion crown game with either constant detect undead, or DR/silver.
Also, your change would be DR/ silver OR magic, not silver AND magic. Silver and Magic DR can only be overcome with a magic silver weapon.
I would never allow a player to makes their own customer race from the Race book. If the players wants to play something customer, the DM should create it for him. This kind of powergaming will make the game less fun for everyone else.
Thank you for clarifying that, I rather wondered, hahah. XD
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If you make his powers only work at night, I'll pretty much guarantee you that 100% of the adventuring will happen at night. Unless you somehow *make* them do stuff during the day, they're going to be nocturnal.
That's a classic sort of "drawback that isn't really a drawback" that can cause problems.
I'm worried that the light blindness drawback is likely to result in this, as well.
Really, the problem I'm facing is that for years I've had a very steadfast rule of "I don't control the players, I control the world.", meaning that as long as they played by the rules and stayed in character, I would leave their characters up to them and control the world around them. This dhampir race seems to be made entirely by the rules. (if you consider the ARG a viable source of player options.)
I also control all of the consequences of their choices, and the way the world looks at them for those choices. Metaphorically speaking, you can step in front of that train and punch it if you want to, put that train is going to punch you back pretty damn hard. I take good care to make a living, breathing world,and the denizens of that world will respond as intelligently as they should.
The thing is, that DR 5/silver is going to take everyone by surprise unless I make his dhampir update the status quo for the race, or some such.
The race concept he came up with reminds me a lot of the dhampir main character from the game "DARKWATCH", except minus all the major weaknesses (he's got light sensitivity, but that one has always been kind of meh).
Really, the problem I'm facing is that for years I've had a very steadfast rule of "I don't control the players, I control the world.", meaning that as long as they played by the rules and stayed in character, I would leave their characters up to them and control the world around them. This dhampir race seems to be made entirely by the rules. (if you consider the ARG a viable source of player options.)
While I salute you for taking this approach, sometimes it can bite you in the rear. In this case, it's not a matter of controlling or not controlling the players as long as they play by the rules. In this case, you're letting the player make the rules. Keep in mind not every chapter of every hardcover rulebook is for the players. This is one of the those cases, in my opinion, where the race creation guidelines are mostly there as a toolkit for the GM (in fact, race creation rules are listed under the Gamemastering section of the D20PFSRD). If you want to allow your players access to these rules that's your prerogative but, like any optional rules in the game, if the GM doesn't want it the players aren't simply entitled to it.
So if allowing player-designed custom races (a dangerous precedent) makes you uncomfortable then just ask him nicely to work with the Dhampir material already provided in the ARG. You're already being more than fair by allowing the Dhampir which is an entirely optional non-standard race as it is.
The thing is, that DR 5/silver is going to take everyone by surprise unless I make his dhampir update the status quo for the race, or some such.The race concept he came up with reminds me a lot of the dhampir main character from the game "DARKWATCH", except minus all the major weaknesses (he's got light sensitivity, but that one has always been kind of meh).
If you do go ahead and allow him to use this build then I'll echo the concerns of those above. The DR coupled with Fast Healing sets off alarm bells for me. It's a bit much and I agree that his "balancing" through a couple drawbacks that aren't actually drawbacks makes it worse. His build is basically worth 17 RP. The -3 RP from his drawbacks barely count since the DR and Fast Healing help to mitigate the Negative Energy Affinity and the Light Blindness isn't going to come up much through the course of Carrion Crown. From a points perspective this puts him a fair bit ahead of the standard core races.
Really, the problem I'm facing is that for years I've had a very steadfast rule of "I don't control the players, I control the world.", meaning that as long as they played by the rules and stayed in character, I would leave their characters up to them and control the world around them. This dhampir race seems to be made entirely by the rules. (if you consider the ARG a viable source of player options.)
Two maxims that I use a lot for GMing:
1. Think before you say 'Yes': Consider the implications of allowing something for a player. Balance, setting, etc.
2. Think before you say 'No': Consider the amount of fun and RP opportunities that player will have. Rule of cool essentially.
I agree with the sentiment that making a custom race from the ARG seems way beyond just allowing the PCs to make characters using any published rules. Since you control the world, you -- not the PCs -- control the determination of what races are in it, especially if they are outside the Canon. I also agree with the sentiment that it is silly to make an alternate Dhampir race. I would suggest that he play a regular Dhampir, and tell him you can work with him to allow his player to acquire certain of the abilities he's interested in over time.
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Detect undead would be awesome!
Takes three rounds to detect the location so it will never be useful in pinpointing WHERE the undead is. Just let them know it is somewhere nearby. Book six the character would be in a permant state of STUN due to overwhelming strength of undead (such as the Whispering Tyrant haunts and such) everywhere. Yeah that would be so freaking cool!
But fast healing and DR of any kind is not acceptable as a player race in my opinion, but should hallow it, it will be amazing how many bad guys have +1 silver weapons that only function as magical for them and manage to do even just an extra +1 damage above that each round... That and bleeding that somehow nullifies fast healing...
The fast healing, DR, and drain resistance would be my big concerns. I would balance it out by ruling that he is so close to undead himself that he can be commanded, dominated, and turned as undead. Additionally when the party cleric channels to damage undead he suffers as well unless the cleric specificlly excludes the character. In fact he might even trigger his own Detect Undead...
But as for permanent Detect Undead... Oh heck yeah, in a heart beat I would allow it... Poor sucker! lol
Just let him play a Dhampyr as per ARG.
You are ultimately running the game and you can say what is and isn't allowed.
If you allow this (IMO cheese) to slip in then you are opening up a can of worms... next will be modified humans, modified elves...
nip it in the bud and say no now, it will save you a headache later.
As an aside: I always notice on these boards that players always seem to come up with the most beneficial "adjustments" when making their custom race and never seem to build in any draw backs. If they do they are very minor and have some cheesy explanation as why they can circumnavigate it. As a GM you are under no obligation to allow anything in the game. People seem to forget that.
EDIT: I bet the player has sunglasses down on his equipment list to get around the light blindness...
Good lord, that thing is pretty broken. I'm all for homebrews and houserules and such, but this player looks like a munchkin to me.
Just checked...
A regular Dhampyr has 11 RP
The Cheese Dhampyr has 17 RP! oh wait 14 RP with the really easy to get around disadvantages...
Say no...please...for the love of Jebus!
If he uses that Inquisitor archetype made for Dhampirs (Kinslayer was the name), then he'll get the Detect Undead ability he wants with upgrades at a certain level. He might as well drop his racial Detect Undead and replace it with an alternate racial from the ARG if he goes down that route. The only real weaknesses that the normal Dhampir has are the penalty to Constitution and the way it interacts with Negative Energy, so making it stronger makes little to no sense.
Regarding Ghostsight, some ghosts appear much as they did in life, with no obvious death wounds. So someone with ghostsight might see a ghost and not realize it's a ghost, rather just somebody alive in their normal vision.
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Really, the problem I'm facing is that for years I've had a very steadfast rule of "I don't control the players, I control the world.", meaning that as long as they played by the rules and stayed in character, I would leave their characters up to them and control the world around them. This dhampir race seems to be made entirely by the rules. (if you consider the ARG a viable source of player options.)
It's worth pointing out that this player has added several Advanced and Monstrous traits to the race, which normally shouldn't be available unless you (the GM) are allowing him to build an Advanced or Monstrous race.
There are three power levels: standard, advanced, and monstrous. Standard races can only take standard racial traits, while advanced races can take both standard and advanced racial traits, and monstrous races can take standard, advanced, and monstrous racial traits. Table 4–1 summarizes the number of RP you can spend as well as the maximum number of traits per racial trait category you can take based on your power level.
So really, no, he hasn't made this race by the rules, even if you're allowing him to use the Race Builder. If the rest of the party is playing standard races, you should limit him to the Standard race traits.
That rule about certain racials limited to certain "levels" is stupid.
Then again, I think most of the Race Builder can be described as such.
Thanks for sharing your opinion. :DThat rule about certain racials limited to certain "levels" is stupid.
Then again, I think most of the Race Builder can be described as such.
And I apologize for the lack of elaboration on said opinion.
Regarding Ghostsight, some ghosts appear much as they did in life, with no obvious death wounds. So someone with ghostsight might see a ghost and not realize it's a ghost, rather just somebody alive in their normal vision.
Indeed! Or might have a morphing appearance - normal, then horrible when they attack. That could cause a horror or insanity check, whatever you use in your campaign.
And the reverse: some ghost might think the PC is one of them.
Or I could do a Sixth Sense movie trick ;)
Well the first thing i noticed was that fast healing is considered a monstrous trait and since your power level is advanced it is not allowed by the pathfinder rules.
The main thing that would worry me about running this is what would stop the rest of the group you play with from doing the exact thing because what class wouldn't benefit from this built
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As far as the fast healing, i suggest the following I got from a PF compatable pdf.
Quick Healer (Su): You can use fast healing 1 for a number of
rounds per day equal to your character level + your Charisma
modifier. Activating or suppressing this ability is a swift action.
This ability automatically activates if you fall below 0 hit points
but are not killed (if you not used all your available rounds for
the day). At 10th level, this improves to fast healing 2. At 20th
level, this improves to fast healing 5. These rounds do not have
to consecutive.
Hrm... after all I've read and checked up in the race building I would say to have all your players stick with the pre-built ones in the ARG, and not allow them to use the race builder.
I know as a DM you want them to build whatever character they want and you make the world, but that's just the thing, the race builder is for you, not them really. It is a tool for you to ad new and exotic races to your world, not for PCs to custom make a race that gains what takes classes many lvls to obtain.
It's too easy to exploit (and yes, your PC is trying to pull a fast one on you) and there are already sensible ways to customize any races in the ARG with the listed racial traits that you can swap out.
If you allow your PC the ability to get both that DR 5/silver and fast healing it could very easily undermine the entire atmosphere of the campaign.
It's you call, but i would have a second look at what your PC is doing and how easy it is to make your own extremely overpowered race who will essentially be unable to kill unless both the dice and DM decide your time is up.