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The 10th level builds.
10th level Fighter
** spoiler omitted **10th level Monk.
** spoiler omitted **...Your Fighter has Improved Critical. Your Monk has ... Mobility and Acrobatic Steps. Why no IC on the Monk?
You didn't take Crane Style, which is the best style feat chain out there. At this level you can take Crane Wing, you know. Poor T-Rexes and all those dozens of one-attack-per-round monsters.
What was said about Vicious Stomp above.
I have a feeling that you're trying to hardball the Fighter build and softball the Monk build.
Unless the monk spends his 10th level bonus feat on Improved Critical, he doesn't have the BAB to qualify for it until 11th level. However, he instead took Improved Trip (6th) and Improved Disarm (10th). Even so, Improved critical would only increase DPR to 28.875, just about 10 below the fighter.
MA
MA
That's 10 DPR less vs. better saves (most importantly, the "screw you" aka Will save) and movement
I'd go with the Monk, personally :)
You know that every true Monk fan knows that Monk bonus feats ignore prerequisites, right? :)The 10th level builds.
10th level Fighter
** spoiler omitted **10th level Monk.
** spoiler omitted **...Your Fighter has Improved Critical. Your Monk has ... Mobility and Acrobatic Steps. Why no IC on the Monk?
You didn't take Crane Style, which is the best style feat chain out there. At this level you can take Crane Wing, you know. Poor T-Rexes and all those dozens of one-attack-per-round monsters.
What was said about Vicious Stomp above.
I have a feeling that you're trying to hardball the Fighter build and softball the Monk build.
Unless the monk spends his 10th level bonus feat on Improved Critical, he doesn't have the BAB to qualify for it until 11th level. However, he instead took Improved Trip (6th) and Improved Disarm (10th). Even so, Improved critical would only increase DPR to 28.875, just about 10 below the fighter.
MA
Yep. The bolded section.
MA
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I would make the following edit:
BAB: +7
Standard Attack: +15 (1d10+7)
Full Attack: +15/+10 (1d10+7)
Full Attack (TWF): +16/+16/+11/+11 (1d10+7)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Stunning Fist (B), Weapon Focus, Toughness, Combat Reflexes (B), Dodge (B), Mobility, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (B), Spring Attack, Greater Trip, Medusa's Wrath (B)
Equipment (62,000 gp): amulet of mighty fists +1 (5,000 gp); belt of physical might (str/con) +2 (10,000 gp), bracers of armor +5 (25,000 gp), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp); ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp); handy haversack (2,000 gp), headband of inspired wisdom +2 (4,000 gp); 4,000 gp remaining for consumables and misc equipment.
AC: 25 (60’ movement); (flat-footed 22, touch 20)
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +12
Hit Points: 88 (including favored class bonus)
This further highlights options that the monk will have and the fighter will not. I realized looking through both builds that power attack is largely unnecessary overall, but instead simply nice to have. The monk in this case can trip as his first attack, at +4 over his normal bonus, and if he succeeds, gain an attack with the prone bonus, making up much of the disparity between the two in the to-hit department. Medusa's Wrath can be just as easily replaced with Improved Critical for more theoretical damage in a vacuum, but I think that it will likely lead to more practical damage, though it's harder to plug into a calculator. I have also shuffled some things around for Spring Attack; This is largely because in skirmishing situations, this monk can avoid most damage if he can land a trip, and at the very least have the ability to disable his opponent with (if it succeeds) little chance for retribution.
Furthermore, with Stunning Fist not taking up an action, you have the potential to 10 times per day enable your own medusa's wrath (I would use it on the attack of opportunity after the trip attempt personally) with either sickened (since it lasts 10 rounds if it lands; though it doesn't enable wrath, it makes stun more likely) or stunned. At 12th you will also be able to stagger, which combined with a trip makes it highly unlikely your opponent will be able to retaliate against you.
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You two are forgetting this isn't a monk thread, it's an AMF thread. Compare that fist fighter to a weapon using fighter of the same level. Or any class but monk really. Monk has complicating elements.
Except that a monk's core mechanic (unarmed strike/flurry) is the only class feature that has no other equivalent way to enhance its effectiveness than AMF when compared to weapon wielding fighters, spellcasters with natural attacks (synthesist/druid/etc). Given the number of times SKR has stated that AMF is the cost that it is because of monks this becomes a monk thread.
With that, comparing monk to weapon-fighter the monk will lose every time. The point is that monk pales even against a fist fighter in core.
dabbler wrote
If drawing weapons was a regular issue, every PC with one would have Quickdraw as a feat. They don't, because it isn't.
and when is my rogue suppose to pay a feat for quickdraw? I am having to spend all my feats for weapon finesse, imp two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting etc?
I don't think you realize how feat intensive other classes are since monks get the equivalent abilities for free. Monks may have enough spare feats to think quickdraw would be valid---others need to use feats to get stuff monks get for free.
I also cant buy one item to get plusses to both hands. I also can be disarmed
maybe give monks fistwraps that can be plussed up--just like weapons---but if you dont buy one for both hands--you cant flurry with it. and the handwraps could be greased off. and you can't flurry if your hands are not free--ie no head hits etc----then monks would understand the limitations hand held weapons have also.
monks could have one silver and one cold iron studded hand wrap if they want---one to plus 3 cold iron and one to plus 1 silver--same as others with weapons, BUT if a mob could only be hit with the cold iron---they get half thier flurry---same as a rogue would only be hitting with one weapon.
it is like others have said---every other class has to buy two weapons to TWF, have to spend 5 feats to equal it, dont have as good in saves or movement etc.
maybe a total remake of the monk is in order---give them what they want--but take away some of their benefits. drop their saves down to fighter. they dont flurry--now they can buy the feats just like everyone else---hey they claim not having to buy them is no big deal---so let them buy them.
I have generally found that when someone is quick to dismiss thier advantages---start taking away those advantages as part of the rebalancing----you will quickly find out how much they do value them.
saves not important--fine trade them in
move not important--fine trade them in
you think spending 5 feats and plussing up two weapons is better than flurry and aomf----fine set them up with the same system---get rid of flurry and have them buy two fist wraps and buy the feats.
That is for a pure Strength-based monk build, which just seems so wrong Evil Lincoln. I mean, a monk having more Strength than an Ogre? Does that really seem like a monk to you? In the Bruce Lee/Jackie Chan/Chuck Norris style? Being able to bench press 520 lbs doesn't strike you as . . . odd for a character in that theme?
I'm not sure quite what you mean, though. To me, Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and Chuck Norris would all have very different stats in the Pathfinder system. Chan focuses a lot more on mobility, and in fact his "fighting style" as it were really closely fits the monk — he misses. He's generally ineffective, outmatched, and almost always on the run, and he relies on luck and environmental factors to take down enemies more physically powerful than himself.
But anyhow, the question I have is, what does the monk trade the missing hits for? Saves? Mobility? That's not such a bad trade. In my personal experience, it doesn't do quite enough to make them an automatic mage hunter, but it does flip some of the inherent limitations of the fighter (saves and mobility) in favor of mage-hunting. I'm not an expert on monks, but I am actually okay (on the face of it) with them being a defensive class with one or two very worthy applications (they can run away and they can tie up mages). Someone's bound to point out how I'm wrong about this, and that's fine, let's hear it.
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dabbler wrote
If drawing weapons was a regular issue, every PC with one would have Quickdraw as a feat. They don't, because it isn't.
and when is my rogue suppose to pay a feat for quickdraw? I am having to spend all my feats for weapon finesse, imp two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting etc?
I don't think you realize how feat intensive other classes are since monks get the equivalent abilities for free. Monks may have enough spare feats to think quickdraw would be valid---others need to use feats to get stuff monks get for free.
I also cant buy one item to get plusses to both hands. I also can be disarmed
maybe give monks fistwraps that can be plussed up--just like weapons---but if you dont buy one for both hands--you cant flurry with it. and the handwraps could be greased off. and you can't flurry if your hands are not free--ie no head hits etc----then monks would understand the limitations hand held weapons have also.
monks could have one silver and one cold iron studded hand wrap if they want---one to plus 3 cold iron and one to plus 1 silver--same as others with weapons, BUT if a mob could only be hit with the cold iron---they get half thier flurry---same as a rogue would only be hitting with one weapon.
it is like others have said---every other class has to buy two weapons to TWF, have to spend 5 feats to equal it, dont have as good in saves or movement etc.
maybe a total remake of the monk is in order---give them what they want--but take away some of their benefits. drop their saves down to fighter. they dont flurry--now they can buy the feats just like everyone else---hey they claim not having to buy them is no big deal---so let them buy them.
I have generally found that when someone is quick to dismiss thier advantages---start taking away those advantages as part of the rebalancing----you will quickly find out how much they do value them.
saves not important--fine trade them in
move not important--fine trade them in
you think spending 5 feats...
You get sneak attack (your damage class feature is not restricted by fighting style OR weapon type), 8+INT per level, rogue talents that are feat-equivalent or better every other level, and both uncanny dodges. Your argument is invalid. Your class is so good you don't even have an archetype worth taking because your class features are better than anything you'd get with very, very small exception (usually the "selfish" rogues like dagger master, or thug-cleric torture domain/sap master build pre-nerf). Monk on the other hand gets none of the improvements on the scale that either fighters or rogues saw, while being put in a position where every forum nerf puts them back towards their (unimpressive) 3.5 showing. Your damage never runs out (unlike our ki which we have to spend for our extra attacks which do less damage than you), and you can inflict status effects almost as well as we can (and when you consider ninja tricks like pressure points, as well).
Heck, you even have a way to guarantee your damage against all but other rogues (ifrit + Fire sight/sylph + mist sight; smoke cloud/obscuring mist major magic rogue talent + sniper goggles + ranged weapon (or two weapon fighting with shuriken))
The 15th level builds.
15th level Fighter
Ability Scores: Str 21 (25), Dex 15 (19), Con 14 (18), Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7. (12th level bump in Str)
BAB: +15
Standard Attack: +31 (1d3+18; 19-20/x2)
Full Attack: +31/+26/+21 (1d3+18; 19-20/x2)
Full Attack (TWF): +29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19 (1d3+18; 19-20/x2)
Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Defense, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Toughness, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Two-Weapon Rend, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Specialization, Penetrating Strike, Dodge
Weapon Training: Close (+3), Bows (+2), Light Blades (+1)
Equipment (240,000 gp): amulet of mighty fists +4 (80,000 gp), +5 breastplate (25,350 gp), belt of physical perfection +4 (64,000 gp), boots of striding and springing (5,500 gp), cloak of resistance +5 (25,000 gp), gloves of arrow snaring (4,000 gp), ring of force shield (8,500 gp), ring of protection +3 (18,000 gp); 9,650 gp remaining for consumables and misc equipment.
AC: 31 (40’ movement); 32 when Two-Weapon Fighting (flat-footed 26, touch 19)
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +14, Will +13
Hit Points: 177 (including favored class bonus)
10th level Monk.
Ability Scores: Str 21 (25), Dex 14 (18), Con 14 (18), Int 10, Wis 14 (18), Cha 7. (12th level bump in Str)
BAB: +11
Standard Attack: +23 (2d6+11; 19-20/x2)
Full Attack: +23/+18/+13 (2d6+11; 19-20/x2)
Full Attack (TWF): +25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15 (2d6+11; 19-20)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Stunning Fist (B), Weapon Focus, Deflect Arrows, Combat Reflexes, Toughness, Dodge, Mobility, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Nimble Moves, Acrobatic Steps, Improved Critical, Medusa’s Wrath, Spring Attack, Improved Grapple
Equipment (240,000 gp): amulet of mighty fists +4 (80,000 gp); belt of physical perfection +4 (64,000 gp), bracers of armor +7 (49,000 gp), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp); ring of protection +3 (18,000 gp); handy haversack (2,000 gp), headband of inspired wisdom +4 (16,000 gp); 7,000 gp remaining for consumables and misc equipment.
AC: 31 (80’ movement); (flat-footed 27, touch 24)
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +15, Will +15
Hit Points: 161 (including favored class bonus)
15th level and the fighter stays in command. His attack bonus is between +4 and +8 higher, with an average damage of 20 points per hit. Standard AC is the same as the monk (but when TWF fighting it is 1 higher than the monk), flat-footed is only 1 point lower, although the monk is much higher on touch (5 points). The fighter has more hit points and a higher fortitude save, although the monk outscores the fighter on Reflex (+1) and Will (+2). Monk does an average of 18 points per hit (thanks to that 2d6 damage die).
Figuring DPR versus an AC of 30 (standard for CR 15 critters), the fighter has a value of 96.8, not including Two-Weapon Rend, which deals another 1d10+10 (average 15.5) once per round if both the primary and off-hand strike the target, which brings the total DPR to 111.525. Impressive.
The monk has a value of 65.34. A difference of 31.46 before Two-Weapon Rend. If the monk spends ki, he gains another attack at his highest attack bonus, which raises him to 81.18 . . . which is still 15.62 behind the fighter before the Two Weapon Rend.
Do we really need to go on? Now, imagine if we allowed non-Core items. The fighter can afford to lose 1 point of AC for the brawling property, which adds another +2 bonus to hit and +2 bonus to damage . . . and stacks with everything. He can drop the AoMF to a +3 in order to buy gloves of dueling, for another +2 bonus to hit and +2 bonus to damage that stacks with everything.
And all of this was without power attack. Add that in, and the fighter, with his extra bonuses on attack rolls, quickly reaches twice the damage per round of the monk.
Look, we monk fans don’t want to compete with the fighter in DPR, but we would like to be able to hit almost as much. This was a Strength-focused monk build. Which is something that I never play. In an actual game, the monk is likely to have a higher Dex and Wis and not as much raw Strength.
MA
But anyhow, the question I have is, what does the monk trade the missing hits for? Saves? Mobility? That's not such a bad trade.
My build had to give up high saves and AC in order to stay competitive with the fist-fighter above. His AC and his saves are not much better than a standard fighter. Sure, you can play with the build and adjust things a bit . . . and will wind up reducing his hitting and his damage while doing so. It is a trade-off. The high AC, good save monk hits a LOT weaker than even this fighter. And this build is nothing compared to a real fighter who uses a weapon.
MA
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I agree with you that Flurry needs a buff, not that it "Sucks to be a monk." My point was that monks are entirely designed around Flurry/TWF. The class isn't intended to be a 2H or Sword and Board, or archer(I know there's the stupid zen archer thing, but I'm being a purist here)
I see your point now, and yes I kind of agree - but FoB is not what the monk is all about, they are also all about mobility...and you cannot combine the two.
Well, I'm doing my best to keep the comparisons as close as possible. I mean, if you're going to compare a monk to a fighter dual wielding wakizashi's that crit on a 15-20, you might as well just throw the whole damn thing out the window and compare it to paladin's smiting and druids transforming into Allosaures that have 5 natural attacks and pounce.
I was trying to find a comparison as close to the monk as possible.
The problem with this is that the other classes have these options, and they will use them. A TWFing fighter is close to a monk yes, but frankly it's the weakest fighter build for damage output.
You may as well pull out the unarmed/brawler fighter archetype, which sadly beats the socks off the monk.
Well again, that's not what I was comparing. I was comparing an unarmed fighter to an unarmed monk. Yeah the fighter has better options, I understand that wholly, but like I said, you might as well compare Paladins as well for what it's worth.
Actually we did a lot of work comparing the monk to the paladin yes - assuming that the paladin was not smiting.
Well, I'm assuming you're not just running in shouting "STUNNING FIST HO!" but rather waiting for things like Prayer and Sicken to hurt the dragon's save (Extra points if you have a witch).
This assumes that those options are available, and that the spells have not already been cast if they were prepared at all. I also stated that the first job will be negating the dragon's buffs. Again, if you need to have buffs (or debuffs) to take on a CR appropriate threat, then something is wrong.
My monk I was referring to was (still is) in a party with an oracle, paladin and magus. Strong builds but short on buffs and debuffs, frankly, save the magus who often casts haste but otherwise is more interested in enhancing himself rather than everyone else.
Yeah...just ignore that, hahaha. I was going back and forth between the succubus and Green dragon and for some reason I read it as the succubus have DR magic. I don't know why, just chalk it up to being really tired as I wrote it, and as I write this.
I was basically trying to illustrate a point that at lower levels not every creature has a baller fort save like they do at higher levels (which I find somewhat problematic). Just screwed up the example royally cause I'm tired. My bad.
Yeah, I do that too sometimes!
Well, look at it this way:
Many CR 1's have a +3 to hit, that means for them to have 5% chance to hit, I need an AC of 23.
Now CR 5's range between +10 and +14, so lets split the difference and say +12 for a CR 5. That means I need an AC of 32 to have a 5% chance of being hit.
Now CR 10's we're looking at something closer to a 17, which means I need an AC of 37 to have a 5% miss chance.
CR 15's, about 25, so we need an AC of 45 to maintain that 5% miss.
It just becomes so hard to keep up your AC. I typically don't make any effort to increase my AC beyond 30, I just don't find it cost effective compared to increasing my damage or finding ways to mitigate damage.
Horses for courses - I find that AC can be very effective indeed, if you play it right. You are assuming, I see, that the ideal AC leaves the target only able to hit you on a 20. That's not necessarily the case. Let me explain how I figure it:
If at 1st level you are fighting a CR 1 with +3 to hit, an AC of 14 allows it to hit you 50% of the time. If it takes you two rounds to take it down, it will on average hit you once. However, if you have an AC of 19, it will hit you once in four rounds and in that two round fight it therefore only hits you half the time. 5 points of AC halved your damage taken.
As you go up levels, you run into more creatures with high threat ranges, you run into creatures with iterative attacks. Every point of AC reduces the damage you take over the duration of an encounter by an average 5%, provided your AC is high enough to make them roll more than a '2' to hit in the first place. It means threats can fail to confirm.
High AC seldom protects you completely in boss-fights, I will agree, but it can reduce the damage you take in mook-fights to nothing.
Right now my current monk is 12th level with an AC of 31, 35 if she spends ki. A high attack in a CR12 will hit her 50% of the time, but if she didn't bother with AC and they hit her 75% of the time, that's an extra hit per attack over a four-round encounter, and that can be a LOT of damage. If she boosts AC, then she is only hit 30% of the time per attack. With Snake Fang, each miss is an AoO for her to hit back in addition.
You seem to have trouble getting through DR and I'm not sure why. My monks always come out of the gate dealing 1d6 + 5 at level one, which is enough to get through DR 5, and by the time you start running into DR 10 magic, you will have an amulet of mighty fists. Yeah there are those DR 10 Silver or Alignment fights, but you just gotta accept that those aren't going to be your fights and do your best with what you got. Hopefully, your GM will not consistently throw things at you that denigrate your class.
Let me guess, you go for strength-monks, while I build for dex and skills. That said I have cranked up damage reasonably well with my monks.
However, my current monk didn't fight anything with DR until 10th level (he was carrying silver & cold iron kama just in case, though). When he did it shut him down, the first fight I have been in where I was utterly irrelevant.
He gets armor, just as bracers. I don't like the constant parroting of 3/4 BAB because I feel like if you are attacking at a 3/4 BAB more than once or twice an encounter, you're doing something wrong.
There are DMs that say that if you allow a PC to get a full-attack in, then THEY are doing something wrong.
I'm not really familiar with this feat tax for dimension door that you're talking about, could you elaborate? If it's not in the Core book, I've probably never heard of it.
It's Dimensional Agility - without it, any use of dimension door ends your round. Now as abundant step only transports the monk, it's not much use generally for the party. The best use is to use it to bypass mooks and lieutenants and get to grips with a BBEG and tie him down so he cannot disturb the rest of the party while they chew up the afore-mentioned mooks and lieutenants. Only you can't because if you use it to get behind him, he has a full round to deal with you before you can act again. Nor can you teleport above the flying creature and grapple it - round ended, you just fall.
The only thing abundant step is good for other than fleeing the TPK, and it's a feat-tax to use.
As for the SR, so you lower your SR before combat to get your buffs.
If you get the chance to. What if the party is surprised? Many buffs have a duration measured in rounds, so buffing well in advance is not often an option.
Let me phrase this another way?
You know how many of my monks have been dominated? None. Fighters? All of them (twice resulting in TPKs).
High saves and other defences are good, but they do not beat the enemy, they just free you up to do that with your other abilities. If those are weak, then you can still lose. Or to put is another way, if you want a fighter that cannot be dominated, paladin is the way to go - they have a good margin over the monk for saves and immunities.
To be honest, I don't typically worry too much about the loss of the neck slot, because the only other decent neck slot items are amulet of Natural Armor, which is nice, but not awful to not have, and Necklace of Adaptation, which is awesome, but situational.
Up to +5 AC, when you can't use a shield or armour and still have to front-ine is not to be sneezed at.
So ultimately, here's the thing. I agree with you that Monks trail behind the other classes. But I think that this is largely the fault of power creep from the books that expand upon the core rules. I think the problem is that there have been many new items, feats and spells that allow other classes to now really outshine the monk, while the monk has received little to boost it's power in comparison.
The monk's loss of enhancement, MAD issues etc are all core. Monks actually gained a lot through the style feats in Ultimate Combat, although they didn't address the main issue.
You are correct in that many items (brass knuckles, body wraps, brawling armour) that have come out to make other classes even better than the monk at fighting unarmed, and many have been designd specifically (or else nerfed) to exclude the monk from gaining their advantages, which makes as much sense as a chocolate tea-pot to me.
I do NOT however believe that AoMF is the solution to this problem, or that the fact that AoMF costing more than what other classes have to pay is what's holding back the monk.
To be honest, I agree. Making the supposedly weapon-independent monk even more dependent on one item instead is crazy. I think the monk's unarmed strike should carry an enhancement bonus to hit (not damage) and they need a ki ability to bypass DR - any DR - to make them relevant and useful as combatants in a party.
To put it another way: Complaining about the cost of AoMF as a monk is sort of like complaining that your car gets poor gas mileage as you careen down the highway at 90 miles an hour with no breaks. Your statement is technically true, but you have bigger problems to deal with.
Yep, in agreement here as well!
I guess I am wary of analysis that puts so much emphasis on DPR. I'm not sure the monk is some great mage-hunter melee combatant, but I am pretty sure that an AC of 24 is high-ish for casters who rely on maneuverability (and mirror image, etc) — give me low damage, high saves and a grappled caster over a DPR monster turned to stone any day...
There's a tradeoff there, and maybe the Monk isn't getting a full return for what he gave up... but I think that the monk putting up fighter numbers for direct damage would be a little strange.
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Since when is this just about the monk? Anyone fighting without weapons uses AMF.
Now why would they do that when they can enhance all their iterative attacks with body-wraps (the monk cannot), or just pick up some brass knuckles?
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I guess I am wary of analysis that puts so much emphasis on DPR. I'm not sure the monk is some great mage-hunter melee combatant, but I am pretty sure that an AC of 24 is high-ish for casters who rely on maneuverability (and mirror image, etc) — give me low damage, high saves and a grappled caster over a DPR monster turned to stone any day...
There's a tradeoff there, and maybe the Monk isn't getting a full return for what he gave up... but I think that the monk putting up fighter numbers for direct damage would be a little strange.
The best anti-caster is another caster. Any martial character who gets within arm's reach of a caster can go to town. If the caster isn't flying, invisible, displaced, protected by mirror image, has stone-skin cast upon him, or any of the many other defensive spells that most arcane casters have at their disposal.
Can a monk see that flying, invisible caster? No more than the switch-hitter ranger can . . . but that ranger's animal companion can at least smell him.
If a monk manages to get his arms on an unprepared sorcerer, witch, or wizard, you are right. It's game over. But the same thing applies to a fighter, ranger, paladin, samurai, cavalier, or barbarian!
It's like all those Gotham villians whose plans begin with "first, kill the Batman." Well, first you've got to get to the caster, and that is easier said than done.
MA
saves not important--fine trade them in
move not important--fine trade them in
you think spending 5 feats you think spending 5 feats and plussing up two weapons is better than flurry and aomf----fine set them up with the same system---get rid of flurry and have them buy two fist wraps and buy the feats.If I could play a monk who traded monk saves for paladin saves; flurry of blows for a d10 Hit Die, full base attack bonus, and weapon-like hand wraps; and fast movement for divine bond and spells... I'd do that every time I played a monk, hands down, no contest. Drop any of the three items on that list and I'd still do it without batting an eyelash.
I'd also play a monk who traded monk saves for ranger saves; flurry of blows for a d10 Hit Die, full base attack bonus, and weapon-like hand wraps; and fast movement for hunter's bond and spells. Again, drop any of the three items on that list and I'd still do it without batting an eyelash.
and I have no problem with monks like you then. so long as the monk is willing to trade off what his advantages are in a rebalance OR to at least acknowledge their advantages fine. It is the monks saying---what we have is unimportant but insist on keeping their advantages while wanting what other classes have--that bother me.
every class has its own weakness and its own strength. to try to keep all your strengths while getting another classes strengths to cancel your weaknesses is lame. A fighter due to weak will saves can actually be more of a danger to a party than a help. I have played more than a few times where charm or even worse dominate person turns that fighter around and sics him on the party. A dominate person controlled high dpr fighter can TPK the party. The monk will more likely make that will save----so archer fighter kills clerics and mages will zen archer keeps attacking BBEG.
Heck playiing a cleric I could complain about all the things a druid or oracle get over me---oracle of life even gets channels like I do--and they get one more dump stat than me--not needing wis. but I have domains. Every class can put on blinders and look where their class is weak compared to another---are you willing to take off the blinders and look where your class is strong vs that other?
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saves not important--fine trade them in
move not important--fine trade them in
you think spending 5 feats you think spending 5 feats and plussing up two weapons is better than flurry and aomf----fine set them up with the same system---get rid of flurry and have them buy two fist wraps and buy the feats.If I could play a monk who traded monk saves for paladin saves; flurry of blows for a d10 Hit Die, full base attack bonus, and weapon-like hand wraps; and fast movement for divine bond and spells... I'd do that every time I played a monk, hands down, no contest. Drop any of the three items on that list and I'd still do it without batting an eyelash.
I'd also play a monk who traded monk saves for ranger saves; flurry of blows for a d10 Hit Die, full base attack bonus, and weapon-like hand wraps; and fast movement for hunter's bond and spells. Again, drop any of the three items on that list and I'd still do it without batting an eyelash.
That sounds like we need some paladin/ranger archetyping! Holy Fist and Temple Guide will now be brainstormed.
I think the only reason an Amulet of Mighty Fists is so expensive is because if you put it on monster with a ton of natural attacks it applies to all of them. Take a Dragon with a bite, 2 claw, 2 wings and a tail slap. An amulet of mighty fists applies to all those attacks. What if you had monster with 7 arms and claws for each arms. Say it's Edilon, that only takes 15 evolution points and you need to 19th level for 7 attacks. An amulet of Mighty Fists on that Edilon would be a cheap investment.
every class has its own weakness and its own strength. to try to keep all your strengths while getting another classes strengths to cancel your weaknesses is lame.
While I agree with you in principal, you are assuming every character class is, as current, perfectly balanced with one another, and from what I can see they are not.
The rogue and the monk in particular are underpowered compared to other classes, for very different reasons. The monk is defensively very good, I will agree, but the paladin is better, and has better offensive ability. I do not want the monk to be offensively as good as the paladin, not by any stretch. But I do want them to be relevant in a situation where offence is called for, because they are a combat class. Their current defences are adequate rather than outstanding, I agree the saves are good, but they are no be-all and end-all.
The rogue is weak because other classes can do his role - scouting - as well as he can, and do pother stuff too. He needs more flexibility, and more defences, in order to be a great choice for the party scout. Less work has been done on the rogue because he can still be a very good scout - he just doesn't have the extra stuff some other classes have.
Both the monk and the rogue need a solid power-up in some way.
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I personally would be more than willing to take away a monk's advantages in lew of buffs.
-Flat movement bonus: It has out right crappy synergy with a flurrying monk. Sure this means the monk has a harder time moving to hit people in the back, or jumping, but at the same time I can't even carry anyone away from combat with this because I loose my speed with a medium load.
-Slow Fall: Really? I've used this maybe, twice as a monk. When I intentionally triggered it just to show the damn thing off. And can be "bought" as a ring.
-Tongue of the Sun and Moon: Uselessly late ability
-Purity of Body & Diamon Body: Let the saves do the work. Like seriously, except in highly situational scenarios do these make the difference when a monk already has all strong saves.
-Diamond Soul: Spell Resistance is a clunky mechanic that hurts as much as it helps. Again, let the saves do the work.
-Still Mind: Yet again, LET THE SAVES DO THE WORK. WIS is presumably high with all good saves, a +2 means little.
-Wholeness of Body: Does less than a potion, and takes a standard action, and 2 of my already precious ki.
-Empty Body: 3 Ki for 1 minute Only yourself? At level 19? Really Mediocre imo. Totally worth trading.
-Timeless Body: How often in a game do you age enough to have this come into effect? Trade.
-Abundant Step: Oh right, the ability that sucks unless you spend a feat tax for the Dimensional Agility. And it costs another 2 Ki. Totally trade.
So yeah, I'll trade away a lot of what the monk has for what I want in a monk. Probably why the Martial Artist is my favorite Monk Archetype. I wouldn't trade Flurry though, since that's sorta their thing short of making it more like the old FoB. Also, Rangers get their TWFing style feats at a similar rate the monk's FoB's changes, we just don't get the feats.
every class has its own weakness and its own strength. to try to keep all your strengths while getting another classes strengths to cancel your weaknesses is lame.While I agree with you in principal, you are assuming every character class is, as current, perfectly balanced with one another, and from what I can see they are not.
The rogue and the monk in particular are underpowered compared to other classes, for very different reasons. The monk is defensively very good, I will agree, but the paladin is better, and has better offensive ability. I do not want the monk to be offensively as good as the paladin, not by any stretch. But I do want them to be relevant in a situation where offence is called for, because they are a combat class. Their current defences are adequate rather than outstanding, I agree the saves are good, but they are no be-all and end-all.
The rogue is weak because other classes can do his role - scouting - as well as he can, and do pother stuff too. He needs more flexibility, and more defences, in order to be a great choice for the party scout. Less work has been done on the rogue because he can still be a very good scout - he just doesn't have the extra stuff some other classes have.
Both the monk and the rogue need a solid power-up in some way.
aye you and I have agreed on this before Dabbler. But it is like I said on that post, there is a way to approach this arguement to get more people like me who are in the middle to accept what you say.
You don't say "fighters have all of this that they do better than us--we want that" YOu say "fighters have these benefits and we have these. we recognize our benefits and so are not asking for everythign the fighter can do, but we do think it should be closer"
the two points of view will come off totally different to most of us.
One seems to dismiss the monk strengths and just want to be fighter pluss's.
the other recognizes the monks strengths, points out the fighter should still have an advantage BUT points out the gap is currently too much.
The problem is too few of the monks take the reasoned mid ground approach you do. recognizing your weaknesses AND strengths vs the other class strength and weakness. The poster who is honest enough to admit that they do have strengths that others may envy also is more likely to receive a receptive audience. The reasoned thought out---this is our strengths/weaknesss and this is X classes strengths/weaknesses and this is the gap between them comes across much better than---they are better than us at X---we want that. (which refuse to point out that you are better at Y-(even if Y is not as important)
just be honest and admit that monks do have things fighters dont--and therefore shouldnt be AS powerful--but the gap needs to close----it will probably go over better.
take the example of the topic here--AoMF? so should it be the same price as a weapon? so for 50K the monk attacks with both hands, knees, head etc at +5---while a TWF (whether ranger, rogue, figher or barbarian has to spend 100K to attack with two hands--and not get kicks, head butts etc?
what is the fair price for making every part of your body a magic attack that can't be disarmed? that you don't have to take off when walking into the opera, dining place, nobles hall or BBEGs lair for a meeting?
currently a AoMF is 1.25 times the price of two weapons plussed the same. The rogue can be asked to leave the weapons outside right before meeting the BBEG oro going into a nice opera---would the monk be taking off the AMoF? a monk is ALWAYS armed, my characters are often not--due to not having drawn yet or being in a place where weapons were not allowed.
so for the topic--what is a fair price? I do recognize the slot issue--therefore I think that the AoMF should actually be increased in price and only used for ACs or edielons or druids in wild shape. ie natural attacks
monks should be able to choose monk weapons like brass knuckles and use them. but to flurry you would need TWO of them just like any other class would need two weapons to TWF--same would go for plussing them up---only one plussed? only half of flurry benefits.
monks still get the benefit of skipping 5 feats. and that is a huge benefit. but fighters have more feats to take--so cancels out.
but AoMF for the price of one magic weapon?--do you really think that is fair? I know many monks would say yes---I ask Dabbler cause he has shown he will look at both sides.
No, Hakken, I think the AoMF is fairly priced for what it does. What it does includes enhancing all the natural attacks of a creature with any number of claws, teeth, pincers, tentacles and whatnot. It is NOT fairly priced as an enhancement option for the monk, and it's cap is too low, but there aren't any real alternatives and Paizo don't want to render it obsolete for that purpose, which I can understand.
The concept of giving the monk his own enhancement through ki-strike appeals to me as the next best option. You could limit it to just hitting, scale it with level, cap it at +5 and then stack it with the enhancement to damage and special properties of the AoMF. Best of all it's more conceptually satisfying given the monk's flavour. Given the bladebound magus it can't be argued as broken.
Why not just rework the monk's robes? Currently, monk's robes boost a monk's unarmed strike damage and class AC bonus by letting them pretend they are 5 levels higher than they are; oh, and they add 1 additional stunning attempt per day, if you have the Stunning Fist feat. So scrap that concept, rename the amulet of mighty fists as the amulet of natural attacks and make it apply only to natural weapons.
Monk's Robe
Aura: Faint evocation
Caster Level: 5th
Slot: Body
Price: 3,000 gp (+1), 12,000 gp (+2), 27,000 gp (+3), 48,000 gp (+4), 75,000 gp (+5)
Weight: 1 lb.
Description: When worn, these robes grant an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes, as well as combat maneuver checks made to grapple and all combat maneuvers performed with the wearer's unarmed strikes.
The enhancement bonus granted by the monk's robes allows the wearer's unarmed strikes to bypasses damage reduction as if the wearer were wielding a weapon with the same enhancement bonus (i.e., +1 bypasses DR/magic, +3 bypasses DR/magic, cold iron, and silver, +4 bypasses DR/magic, cold iron, silver, and adamantine, +5 bypasses DR/magic, cold iron, silver, adamantine, and all alignment based DRs. Being able to bypass adamatine DR does not grant the ability to ignore hardness in the manner of an actual adamantine weapon).
These robes cannot grant weapon special abilities to the wearer's unarmed strikes; they only grant enhancement bonuses on attack rolls and damage rolls.
The wearer of these robes still provokes an attack of opportunity for using unarmed strikes, unless he also possesses a feat or class ability that keeps him from provoking attacks of opportunity. Similarly, his unarmed strikes continue to deal non-lethal damage, unless the wearer of these robes already possesses the ability to inflict lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Construction Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, greater magic fang or greater magic weapon, caster's level must be at least three times the bonus granted by the robes.
Construction Cost: 1,500 gp (+1), 6,000 gp (+2), 13,500 gp (+3), 24,000 gp (+4), 37,500 gp (+5)
This is the type of item we have asked for, Hakken. Yes, it should cost more than a single weapon to reflect that it cannot be disarmed, sundered, or stolen. I do not hold with the idea of flurry = TWF, however; I believe unarmed strikes are a single weapon, and the different limbs to attack with is only descriptive fluff. Nothing more.
MA
MA: I think the Monk's robes should stay as is.
At least now most of us seem to agree that its ok for the boxer (unarmed fighter) to hit harder and better then the tai chi guy (monk) as long as the distance between them isn't huge. (And as a Mixed Martial artist who has taken both styles (and been hit by both!) a boxer can hit harder and faster then almost any other martial art out there!). The AoMF is not the answer to that problem. The Monk people (including me) want something that works just for the monk that lets us at least be at the baseline necessary.
The thing the object must do:
* He should be able to flurry with it (aka TWF!)
* The Monk is a TWF (even if a subpar one). So it should cost the same as enchanting two weapons.
* It should work just for monks.
* It should be able to be disarmed, greased, sundered, etc. just like any other class's weapon to be fair.
My suggestion, and the item is a little wonky but I like it, is the following:
Slot: Hands, Wrist, Torso, Feet, or Headband
Price: 4,000 (+1), 16,000 (+2), 36,000 (+3), 64,000 (+4), 100,000 (+5), 144,000 (+6), 186,000 (+7)
Weight:1lb
Description: These wraps grant an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes as long as the wielder has a ki pool. Alternatively, these wraps can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed strikes although the total bonus can not exceed +7. They count as a weapon for the purposes of spells and combat maneuvers and give off all the cosmetic signs of the same (a +1 flaming ki wrap will look to be one fire!)
These pair of silk wraps can be placed anywhere on the body. When worn on the specific location they grant that area of the body the enhancement bonus (hands=fist, wrists=elbow/arms, torso=body/shoulder feet=knee/kicks, Headband=headbut). They require a standard action to place or take off any specific location although the Quick Draw feat reduces the action to a move action.
The item only lets people with a ki pool use them (so our bastard child with the rogue, the ninja, can use them too), they can NOT be used by the natural attackers, they work just like a weapon so DMs can sunder, grease and disarm to their hearts content, give a reason for quickdraw, and keeps the monk even with other 3/4 BAB TWF because the Monk has to buy the full enhancement for "both" while the other 3/4 BAB can pick and choose giving them more versatility, lets different style of flavor attacks be viable without giving a overpowered mechanic, any enhancement that give a cosmetic effect will be noticed (so the king's guard WILL ask you take your wraps off).
Also to the argument that the newcomer only using Core won't know about this cool item in Book Z and buys the AoMF the same rule would apply to all the other classes and builds so I don't feel that such an argument is valid (plus there is the PFSRD!)
Now the boxer and monk can hit a wall and the boxer will still have a slightly bigger hole but the monk can them run up the wall and do it again and feel cool.
Now the fighter and monk can walk up to the wizard and the beginning of the dungeon and beg together for him to touch their weapons with GMW. Then the paladin will smite something and they can run off and complain together that they don't get to smite!
Sorry for the long a** post!
12th Monk (Sacred Mountain)
15 Point Buy
Average HP
Dwarf Monk
Lawful Good Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init: +0; Senses: Dark-vision 60ft; Perception +20
AC: 27 (+3 natural, +3 armor, +3 monk, +5 wisdom, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
Touch: 21; Flat-footed: 18
HP: 111 (12 HD)
Fort: +12, Ref: +10, Will: +15 (+4 against spells/spell-like abilities, +2 against Enchantment spells and effects, +2 against poison/sleep/paralysis/stunning effects)
Damage Reduction: 2/-
Defensive Abilities:
Defensive Training: Dwarves gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant subtype.
Bastion Stance (Ex)
At 4th level, a monk of the sacred mountain becomes like stone, nearly impossible to move when he stands his ground. If the monk starts and ends his turn in the same space, he cannot be knocked prone or forcibly moved until the start of his next turn, except by mind-affecting or teleportation effects.
Iron Limb Defense (Ex)
At 5th level, a monk of the sacred mountain can deflect blows with an active defense that complements his bastion stance. If the monk starts and ends his turn in the same space, he gains a +2 shield bonus to AC and CMD until the start of his next turn. As a swift action, he can spend 1 ki point to increase this bonus to +4.
Adamantine Monk (Ex)
At 9th level, a monk of the sacred mountain has muscles so strong and skin so resilient that he gains DR 1/—. This DR increases by 1 for every three levels thereafter. As a swift action, the monk can spend 1 ki point to double his DR until the beginning of his next turn.
Immune: Poison, Disease,
Speed: 60ft
Melee: Unarmed +19/+14 (2d6+12/19-20x2) or
Temple Sword +19/+14 (1d8+9/19-20x2)
Flurry: Unarmed +20/+15/+10 (2d6+12/19-20x2) and
Temple Sword +20/+15 (1d8+9/19-20x2)
Ki Point: Unarmed Strike +20 (2d6+12/19-20x2)
1st Unarmed Strike each round gains +3 damage.
Ranged: Shuriken +10/+5 (1d2+9/20x2) 10ft
Flurry: Shuriken +11/+11/+6/+6/+1 (1d2+9/20x2) 10ft
Special Attacks:
Dragon Style (You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round)
Dragon Ferocity (While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.
Stunning Fist (12/Day; Fort DC 21; Choose: Stunned 1 round, fatigued, sickened 1 minute, staggered 1d6+1 round; Usable once per round.)
Medusa's Wrath (Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.)
Giant Hunter: Dwarves with this racial trait gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoids with the giant subtype. Furthermore, they gain a +2 bonus on Survival checks to find and follow tracks made by humanoids with the giant subtype.
Str 22 (+6)
Dex 10 (+0)
Con 15 (+2)
Int 12 (+1)
Wis 20 (+5)
Cha 5 (-3)
Base Attack: +9
CMB: +18 (+2 Trip, +2 Trip when using Temple Sword)
CMD: 36 (+4 against Bull Rush/Trip when standing on ground)
Feats: Steel Soul, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Dodge, Deflect Arrows, Toughness, Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus(Temple Sword), Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike), Medusa's Wrath, Improved Critical(Unarmed Strike),
Skills: Climb +19, Perception +20, Sense Motive +20, Swim +19, Knowledge(History) +9, Knowledge(Religion) +9, Acrobatics +9,
Languages: Common, Dwarven, Giant,
SQ: Stone-cunning, Greed, Stability, Fast Movement(+40ft), Maneuver Training, Still Mind, Purity of Body, Diamond Body, Vow of Silence(+2 Ki),
Wholeness of Body (Su)
At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a standard action. He can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to his monk level by using 2 points from his ki pool.
Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. He cannot take other creatures with him when he uses this ability.
Ki Pool (Magic, Lawful; 13 points)
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can do one of the following:
Make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack, or
increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round, or
give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A monk gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
Gear: +3 Adamantine Temple Sword, Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes (+3), Belt of Giant Strength (+4), Bracers of Armor (+3), Headband of Inspired Wisdom (+4), Cloak of Resistance (+2), Ring of Protection (+2), Amulet of Natural Armor(+2), (20) Masterwork Shuriken,
You know I find it amazing that after Paizo (via the devs) have said again and again that they will not replace the AoMF, and an item fix will not be considered, people still propose them.
I guess...
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Yeah I know they have said it...we just wish they would change their minds. Most people believe it would be easier then doing MORE changes to the Monk class itself and we do not want to REPLACE the AoMF since it is fine for natural attackers...just get something that will work just for unarmed strikes.
You know I find it amazing that after Paizo (via the devs) have said again and again that they will not replace the AoMF, and an item fix will not be considered, people still propose them.Just give use an item that only effects unarmed strikes or a single natural weapon.
Boom. Both AoMF and whatever the new item is are both viable for separate builds (AoMF for something with multiple natural weapons, new item for Monks).
I keep saying that an allying weapon is 100% legit for this very purpose.
In the end, an allying weapon + AoMF is cheaper than a +10 weapon. You win some and you lose some.
What, I suggest going for non EB on your AoMF, so that it stacks with your allying weapon EB. You effectively get the +10 (+5 EB, +5 other stuff) weapon that everyone wants for 3k less.
I agree, being forced to jump through hoops is silly (see my fix for how to deal with the "necessity to attack"), but I also want monk players to realize all the options they have, one of which is an +5 allying cestus on each fist. Very thematically appropriate, in my opinion.
I agree, being forced to jump through hoops is silly (see my fix for how to deal with the "necessity to attack"), but I also want monk players to realize all the options they have, one of which is an +5 allying cestus on each fist. Very thematically appropriate, in my opinion.
But a cestus does not deal unarmed strike damage....
If your flurrying duexhero then your using at least 2 unarmed strikes which means you need 2 allying weapons to make the both +5.