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I've been using a variety of "noble" classes over the years and ultimately been unsatisfied with them. They were either too specialized or not specialized enough.
Anyway, here's my attempt at building one:
At the moment, I'm at a loss as to what to use for a capstone ability and inspiration for more "Advanced Talents".
Constructive advice & criticism is appreciated.
Mine seem empty in comparison, well, I don't really know what I am doing... (can't even come up with names)
The (X)
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The (X) can choose any 22 skills + Craft (Int), Perform (Cha) and Profession (Wis) to be class skills.
Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier.
Table: (X)
Level___BAB__________FS____RS____WS_____Special
1st_____+0___________+2____+2____+2_____ Bonus (racial) Feat
2nd_____+1___________+3____+3____+3_____
3rd ____+2___________+3____+3____+3_____
4th_____+3___________+4____+4____+4_____
5th_____+3___________+4____+4____+4_____
6th_____+4___________+5____+5____+5_____
7th_____+5___________+5____+5____+5_____
8th_____+6/+1________+6____+6____+6_____
9th_____+6/+1________+6____+6____+6_____
10th____+7/+2________+7____+7____+7_____
11th____+8/+3________+7____+7____+7_____
12th____+9/+4________+8____+8____+8_____
13th____+9/+4________+8____+8____+8_____
14th____+10/+5_______+9____+9____+9_____
15th____+11/+6/+1____+9____+9____+9_____
16th____+12/+7/+2____+10___+10___+10____
17th____+12/+7/+2____+10___+10___+10____
18th____+13/+8/+3____+11___+11___+11____
19th____+14/+9/+4____+11___+11___+11____
20th____+15/+10/+5___+12___+12___+12____
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the (X).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A (X) is proficient with all simple weapons, all martial weapons and an exotic weapon of her chosing and with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
The (X)
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The (X) can choose any 22 skills + Craft (Int), Perform (Cha) and Profession (Wis) to be class skills.
Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier.
Table: (X)
Level___BAB__________GSS____BS_____Special
1st_____+0___________+2_____+0_____ Bonus Feat, Noble Training, Skill Bonus (x2),
***_____**___________**_____**_____ Chance (1/day), Bloodline Power,
2nd_____+1___________+3_____+0_____ Chance (2/day),
3rd ____+2___________+3_____+1_____ Chance (3/day), Bloodline Power,
4th_____+3___________+4_____+1_____ Chance (4/day),
5th_____+3___________+4_____+1_____ Chance (5/day),
6th_____+4___________+5_____+2_____ Chance (6/day),
7th_____+5___________+5_____+2_____ Chance (7/day),
8th_____+6/+1________+6_____+2_____ Chance (8/day),
9th_____+6/+1________+6_____+3_____ Chance (9/day), Bloodline Power,
10th____+7/+2________+7_____+3_____ Chance (10/day),
11th____+8/+3________+7_____+3_____ Chance (11/day),
12th____+9/+4________+8_____+4_____ Chance (12/day),
13th____+9/+4________+8_____+4_____ Chance (13/day),
14th____+10/+5_______+9_____+4_____ Chance (14/day),
15th____+11/+6/+1____+9_____+5_____ Chance (15/day), Bloodline Power,
16th____+12/+7/+2____+10____+5_____ Chance (16/day),
17th____+12/+7/+2____+10____+5_____ Chance (17/day),
18th____+13/+8/+3____+11____+6_____ Chance (18/day),
19th____+14/+9/+4____+11____+6_____ Chance (19/day),
20th____+15/+10/+5___+12____+6_____ Chance (20/day), Bloodline Power,
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the (X).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A (X) is proficient with all simple weapons, all martial weapons and an exotic weapon of his chosing and with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
Noble Training: As a part of his growth at 1st level, an (X) must decide which two saves will be his good saves, and which one will be his bad save. Once these saves are selected they may not be changed. These saves will progress per level according to the (X) Table.
The (W)
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills
The (W) can choose any 20 skills + Craft (Int), Perform (Cha) and Profession (Wis) to be class skills.
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Table: (W)
Level___BAB_______________FS____RS____WS_____Special
1st_____+1________________+2____+2____+2_____ Bonus (racial?) Feat,
2nd_____+2________________+3____+3____+3_____
3rd ____+3________________+3____+3____+3_____
4th_____+4________________+4____+4____+4_____
5th_____+5________________+4____+4____+4_____
6th_____+6/+1_____________+5____+5____+5_____
7th_____+7/+2_____________+5____+5____+5_____
8th_____+8/+3_____________+6____+6____+6_____
9th_____+9/+4_____________+6____+6____+6_____
10th____+10/+5____________+7____+7____+7_____
11th____+11/+6/+1_________+7____+7____+7_____
12th____+12/+7/+2_________+8____+8____+8_____
13th____+13/+8/+3_________+8____+8____+8_____
14th____+14/+9/+4_________+9____+9____+9_____
15th____+15/+10/+5________+9____+9____+9_____
16th____+16/+11/+6/+1_____+10___+10___+10____
17th____+17/+12/+7/+2_____+10___+10___+10____
18th____+18/+13/+8/+3_____+11___+11___+11____
19th____+19/+14/+9/+4_____+11___+11___+11____
20th____+20/+15/+10/+5____+12___+12___+12____
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the (W).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The (w) is proficient in the use of all simple weapons, all martial weapons and an exotic weapon of his chosing and with all types of armor and shields.
The (W)
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills
The (W) can choose any 20 skills + Craft (Int), Perform (Cha) and Profession (Wis) to be class skills.
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Table: (W)
Level___BAB_______________GSS____BS_____Special
1st_____+1________________+2_____+0_____ Bonus Feat, Noble Training, Skill Bonus,
***_____**________________**_____**_____ Chance (1/day), Bloodline Power,
2nd_____+2________________+3_____+0_____ _____
3rd ____+3________________+3_____+1_____ Chance (2/day), Bloodline Power,
4th_____+4________________+4_____+1_____ _____
5th_____+5________________+4_____+1_____ Chance (3/day),
6th_____+6/+1_____________+5_____+2_____ _____
7th_____+7/+2_____________+5_____+2_____ Chance (4/day),
8th_____+8/+3_____________+6_____+2_____ _____
9th_____+9/+4_____________+6_____+3_____ Chance (5/day), Blooline Power,
10th____+10/+5____________+7_____+3_____ _____
11th____+11/+6/+1_________+7_____+3_____ Chance (6/day),
12th____+12/+7/+2_________+8_____+4_____ _____
13th____+13/+8/+3_________+8_____+4_____ Chance (7/day),
14th____+14/+9/+4_________+9_____+4_____ _____
15th____+15/+10/+5________+9_____+5_____ Chance (8/day), Bloodline Power,
16th____+16/+11/+6/+1_____+10____+5_____ _____
17th____+17/+12/+7/+2_____+10____+5_____ Chance (9/day),
18th____+18/+13/+8/+3_____+11____+6_____ _____
19th____+19/+14/+9/+4_____+11____+6_____ Chance (10/day),
20th____+20/+15/+10/+5____+12____+6_____ Bloodline Power,
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the (W).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The (w) is proficient in the use of all simple weapons, all martial weapons and an exotic weapon of her chosing and with all types of armor and shields.
Noble Training: As a part of her growth at 1st level, an (W) must decide which two saves will be her good saves, and which one will be her bad save. Once these saves are selected they may not be changed. These saves will progress per level according to the (W) Table.
The (Y)
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The (Y) can choose any 12 skills + Craft (Int), Perform (Cha) + Profession (Wis) and bonus skills from her Mystery to be class skills.
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Table: (Y)
Level___BAB__________GSS____BS_____Special
1st_____+0___________+2_____+0_____ Bonus Feat, Noble Training, Curse.
***_____**___________**_____**_____ Mystery, Revelation,
2nd_____+1___________+3_____+0_____ _____
3rd ____+2___________+3_____+1_____ Revelation,
4th_____+3___________+4_____+1_____ _____
5th_____+3___________+4_____+1_____ _____
6th_____+4___________+5_____+2_____ _____
7th_____+5___________+5_____+2_____ Revelation,
8th_____+6/+1________+6_____+2_____ _____
9th_____+6/+1________+6_____+3_____ _____
10th____+7/+2________+7_____+3_____ _____
11th____+8/+3________+7_____+3_____ Revelation,
12th____+9/+4________+8_____+4_____ _____
13th____+9/+4________+8_____+4_____ _____
14th____+10/+5_______+9_____+4_____ _____
15th____+11/+6/+1____+9_____+5_____ Revelation,
16th____+12/+7/+2____+10____+5_____ _____
17th____+12/+7/+2____+10____+5_____ _____
18th____+13/+8/+3____+11____+6_____ _____
19th____+14/+9/+4____+11____+6_____ Revelation,
20th____+15/+10/+5___+12____+6_____ Final Revelation,
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the (Y).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A (Y) is proficient with all simple weapons, all martial weapons and an exotic weapon of her chosing and with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
Noble Training: As a part of her growth at 1st level, an (Y) must decide which two saves will be her good saves, and which one will be her bad save. Once these saves are selected they may not be changed. These saves will progress per level according to the (Y) Table.
I've only skimmed it but I do have a few of comments to add:
First, I'd pull it back to light and medium armor proficiency. While it strikes that the noble is a "lead from the front" kind of guy, he doesn't strike me as the one to take the blows. Seeing as he'd have a bodyguard of sorts and not be ready to "take it in the face" as it were. Perhaps add Heavy Armor proficiency as a talent they can select? Make it a prerequisite for the Armor Training talent. So the progression goes Heavy Armor -> Armor Training -> Advanced Armor Training
Secondly, the Affluent talent is ridiculously good. Take it at level two and you get a "bonus" 156750gp over the course of a noble's career, which is really nothing to sneeze at. That talent is a "must have."
Third, take a look at the Holy Tactician archetype for the paladin, as it has a number of "leadership" type abilities.
Finally, think of an alternative to the Leadership ability (at least offered as an "archetype") as I know a number of GMs that don't like the Leadership feat as it overly complicates already slow combats.
I've only skimmed it but I do have a few of comments to add:
First, I'd pull it back to light and medium armor proficiency. While it strikes that the noble is a "lead from the front" kind of guy, he doesn't strike me as the one to take the blows. Seeing as he'd have a bodyguard of sorts and not be ready to "take it in the face" as it were. Perhaps add Heavy Armor proficiency as a talent they can select? Make it a prerequisite for the Armor Training talent. So the progression goes Heavy Armor -> Armor Training -> Advanced Armor Training
I think you're right. I'll see about adding in that minor revision this evening after a few more reviews are done (easier to revise all at once).
Secondly, the Affluent talent is ridiculously good. Take it at level two and you get a "bonus" 156750gp over the course of a noble's career, which is really nothing to sneeze at. That talent is a "must have."
I kinda feel like an idiot on that one. It's a relic from copy/paste in a note section from the Noble Scion prestige class & the Conan d20 version of the noble. I liked the Prestigious Influence (Ex) class ability enough I intended to replace Affluent/Wealth with it. Thanks for pointing this out.
Third, take a look at the Holy Tactician archetype for the paladin, as it has a number of "leadership" type abilities.
Finally, think of an alternative to the Leadership ability (at least offered as an "archetype") as I know a number of GMs that don't like the Leadership feat as it overly complicates already slow combats.
I'll give that a look over and see if I can find something (hopefully in the archetype you mention) to replace it. We use leadership in my campaigns regularly, but due to the fact we have 8-9 players, my group understands these guys have to stay at home & sometimes get requisitioned by the rulers as part of their obligation, etc.
Tittle: Very minor thing, but I might change the text slightly so it is gender neutral and the fact that these change with culture, while orcs for example do not have nobility as such the son of tribe chieftain could fall in to the class. Like I said very minor and not really an issue as such. Thought to mention it if you care about that sort of stuff.
Thanks for pointing that out; I actually do care, as I prefer to make things more inclusive.
Rallying Presence: I really like the idea of using temporary HP, and with it not stacking should take care of any or at least most problems with it.
It came out on a whim after looking at some other classes. I really like the fact it's a roll and not a flat bonus like some I've seen. I've found stacking temporry hit points problematic.
Noble Talents:
Aristocratic Erudition(Ex): Really like this one fits the theme like a glove.
Armor training(Ex): Not a fan of the fact that you can get this at 2nd level, since fighter get's it at 3rd. Maybe just place some minimum level to it.
Demoralizing Defense(Ex): Sounds a little too good with -4 and immediate action. Perhaps if it required you to declare it before hand and it was limited to once per turn, that might be taking it too far though. Anyways I think slight tweaking might be in order.
Skilled Rider: Not really sure I like one talent giving two feats.
Bolster Ally(Ex): I would take the half damage out of the ability, it would still be very good because of the immediate action. Also it needs use per day limit. As it is, in my opinion it is too good.
I'll have to fix the armor training. A lack of minimum level is definitely an oversight on my part. I'll reduce skilled right to just grant Mounted Combat. I'll drop the 1/2 damage from Bolster.
Demoralizing Defense is an interesting one, in that due to the use of an immediate action, it can only be performed every other round. An immediate action costs you the swift action on your next turn, thus making it not available for use in that turn Immediate Action. With that in mind, does it still seem a bit over the top? I'm not sure on this one, as it may well be.Otherwise I see no problems with anything.
As far as the capstone goes, perhaps remove the limit on Leadership score so it can go above 25.
Only thing that out of the top of my head for the advanced talents, would be ability that allows you to use Aid another action to all allies within 30ft.
Other's have posted while I was writing and I agree with Cavian about Affluent talent, didn't realize the amount since I didn't do the math. It might be okay if it had some heavy restriction on what to use it on.
I removed the Affluent immediately (reasons above). I really like the idea of the Aid Another @ 30' radius. I'll see what I can come up with.
I'll make the changes now that I can quickly.=)
Thanks!
All suggested changes have been made up to this point with the exceptions of Enhanced Leadership, the Title Rewording, & Advanced Talent Suggestion (Aid Another 30 foot radius). They'll take a little more time.
A few notes at a glance:
The noble is described as charismatic character with several abilities based on athletics. I would consider adding Reflex as a good save. Perhaps also give a few more athletic-based skills.
A case could be made about nobles buying goods and hiring performers; craft and perform as class skills stand out as odd skills for a noble. Make 'alchemist' or 'ballroom dancer' into talents if need be.
Several abilities are usable x number of times per day. You could clean it all up by making a pool-based ability from which rallying presence could tap (like inspire courage as use of Bardic Music for example).
question about this this ability:
Aristocratic Erudition (Ex) A noble gains a bonus equal to 1/5 his class level on Diplomacy...
first +1 at level 5th only?
A few notes at a glance:
The noble is described as charismatic character with several abilities based on athletics. I would consider adding Reflex as a good save. Perhaps also give a few more athletic-based skills.
Just to make sure I'm clear, Reflex and Will as good saves or shift the good save from Will to Reflex? My original version (the version before this posted version) had both Reflex and Will as good saves
A case could be made about nobles buying goods and hiring performers; craft and perform as class skills stand out as odd skills for a noble. Make 'alchemist' or 'ballroom dancer' into talents if need be.
Excellent idea!
Several abilities are usable x number of times per day. You could clean it all up by making a pool-based ability from which rallying presence could tap (like inspire courage as use of Bardic Music for example).
I gotcha. Unify the system. I'll work on that this evening, though unlike many of the easy changes, it won't be immediately reflected in the Doc file.
question about this this ability:
Aristocratic Erudition (Ex) A noble gains a bonus equal to 1/5 his class level on Diplomacy...
first +1 at level 5th only?
That was entirely unintentional. I'll shifting the wording to grant +1 upon taking said talent and +1 for every 4 levels thereafter, which should grant the original +5 max bonus I intended. Thanks!
And this is why I love these boards.
A few notes at a glance:
The noble is described as charismatic character with several abilities based on athletics. I would consider adding Reflex as a good save. Perhaps also give a few more athletic-based skills.
A case could be made about nobles buying goods and hiring performers; craft and perform as class skills stand out as odd skills for a noble. Make 'alchemist' or 'ballroom dancer' into talents if need be.
Several abilities are usable x number of times per day. You could clean it all up by making a pool-based ability from which rallying presence could tap (like inspire courage as use of Bardic Music for example).
To be fair, the Aristocrat NPC class has one of the biggest skill list in the game.
I would say the Class could have Archetypes to cover different functions.
Just to make sure I'm clear, Reflex and Will as good saves or shift the good save from Will to Reflex? My original version (the version before this posted version) had both Reflex and Will as good savesA few notes at a glance:
The noble is described as charismatic character with several abilities based on athletics. I would consider adding Reflex as a good save. Perhaps also give a few more athletic-based skills.
I think this version of the noble can afford both good Ref and Will without crying foul. I wouldn't go as far as granting evasion and uncanny dodge; just plain good Ref.
To be fair, the Aristocrat NPC class has one of the biggest skill list in the game.
I would say the Class could have Archetypes to cover different functions.
I'm definitely going to be adding Archetypes for more specialized roles.
Changes:
Added craft (alchemy) to Poison Use, renamed Poison Use as "Poisoner", removed craft as a class skill.
Fixed Aristocratic Erudition (and increased the bonus - now more in line with stern gaze's progression - which may be too much, but it doesn't /seem/ like it will be. Thoughts?).
Removed Perform as a class skill; added "Aristocratic Pursuits" (hunting & the arts) which grants Perform and Survival as class skills on selecting the talent.
Granted 2 good saves (Reflex & Will).
Starting Work on the "Pool" idea. Considering calling it "Savoir-faire".
I'm definitely going to be adding Archetypes for more specialized roles.
Changes:
Added craft (alchemy) to Poison Use, renamed Poison Use as "Poisoner", removed craft as a class skill.
Fixed Aristocratic Erudition (and increased the bonus - now more in line with stern gaze's progression - which may be too much, but it doesn't /seem/ like it will be. Thoughts?).
Removed Perform as a class skill; added "Aristocratic Pursuits" (hunting & the arts) which grants Perform and Survival as class skills on selecting the talent.
Granted 2 good saves (Reflex & Will).
Starting Work on the "Pool" idea. Considering calling it "Savoir-faire".
One 3PP class has this:
Arcane: Knowledge (arcane), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device
Divine: Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (planes), and Spellcraft
Court Trained: Languages, Knowledge (nobility), and Sense Motive
Showmanship: Bluff and Performance (any)
Street Credibility: Appraise, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand
Technical: Disable Device and Use Magic Device
Tricky: Disguise, Escape Artist, and Sleight of Hand
Woodsmen: Handle Animal and Knowledge (nature)
Maybe something like that?
One 3PP class has this:
** spoiler omitted **
Maybe something like that?
That's kinda brilliant. It will allow an individual GM to customize between male & female training depending on culture (or if at all, if a well-integrate/cosmopolitan culture). Thanks!
This is what I have so far for the Noble's "Savoir-faire" Pool. The idea being, as Laurefindel suggested, to use this pool to unify/clean up the X uses/day mechanics in many of the abilities.
Savoir-faire (Ex) At 1st level, a noble gains a pool of Savoir-faire which may be used to power the nobles abilities in a variety of ways. The maximum number of points in the noble's Savoir-faire pool is equal to one-half the noble's level + the noble's Charisma modifier. A noble's Savoir-faire is replenished to maximum every 24 hours, at the same time each day. As long as the noble has at least one point of Savoir-faire, the noble gains a +2 bonus on Charisma-based skill checks.
The 1 point in the pool for the +2 bonus on Charisma-based skill checks was pretty much all I could come up with off the cuff. I looked at several of the other classes with "Pools" and they really didn't stand out as mechanics I could actually use, so I'm still searching for ideas.
Savoir-faire (Ex) At 1st level, a noble gains a pool of Savoir-faire which may be used to power the nobles abilities in a variety of ways. The maximum number of points in the noble's Savoir-faire pool is equal to one-half the noble's level + the noble's Charisma modifier. A noble's Savoir-faire is replenished to maximum every 24 hours, at the same time each day. As long as the noble has at least one point of Savoir-faire, the noble gains a +2 bonus on Charisma-based skill checks.
I approve of the ability's name. It's fitting, descriptive and there's nothing like a bit French for a pedantic feel :) (And I say that as a francophone)
So basically you've got comeliness as a bonus talent as long as you've got one point of savoir-faire. I think it fits (I can see the noble loosing its cool as its resources get low).
You could also have a "falconer" talent in there...
I approve of the ability's name. It's fitting, descriptive and there's nothing like a bit French for a pedantic feel :) (And I say that as a francophone)
My wife is fluent, but I flunked it. I speak English and Bad English (Corbin Dallas [Bruce Willis]). =)
I kinda liked the word, though I did have to look it up to make sure it meant what I thought it meant, haha.
So basically you've got comeliness as a bonus talent as long as you've got one point of savoir-faire. I think it fits (I can see the noble loosing its cool as its resources get low).That's pretty much what I had in mind; I love the cheesy movies where the noble loses it and doesn't act quite so noble. I feel like I should add in something else in the savoir-faire entry for them to spend points on, though that may just stem from all the other examples of the "pools". I'm not sure if it is necessary or not.
You could also have a "falconer" talent in there...
We're definitely on the same page. I've been thinking of how to do something like that since I started work on the class earlier. I've been considering some sort of talent that a) grants the noble an affiliation with some sort of animal such as hunting/war dogs and/or falcons in the form of a bonus; and b) a later talent that allows them to gain a form of animal companion in the form of a hunting/war dog and/or falcon.
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So, I got a little bit inspired this morning and made the following changes:
Notes:
Added Dominion as capstone. Not sure if it's suitable, but seems to be similar to what I had in mind.
Reverted the Noble's Class skill list to the Aristocrats. Added in a Variant Class Skills "package" based on nation/region, and so on.
Removed Enhanced Leadership & added it as a talent with the "optional/GM approval" prerequisite.
Standard Talent: Animal Trainer Anticipate the Move, and Enhanced Leadership (Optional).
Advanced Talents: (I raided my Conan books) Above Suspicion, Expert Trainer, Information Network, Read Between the Lines, Secret, and Trusted Councilor.
Proposed Archetypes: Hunter (animal companion [falcon] or [war/hunting dog(s)] - not using standard animal companion rules), Professional Soldier (?), and others as ideas are presented.
To-Do List (So far)
Title: rewrite to be gender neutral and inclusive of tribes and/or other systems of rulership.
Class Link: The Noble.
Minor thing: when you were reverting back to Aristocrat skills, you missed Linguistics. Aristocrats tended to be the people who knew the largest number of languages next to merchants and mercenaries.
EDIT: Also Disguise and Swim. I understand that Craft and Profession were deliberately removed from the list.
EDIT 2: Savage Nobles have Jump skill which was merged into Acrobatics.
Minor thing: when you were reverting back to Aristocrat skills, you missed Linguistics. Aristocrats tended to be the people who knew the largest number of languages next to merchants and mercenaries.
EDIT: Also Disguise and Swim. I understand that Craft and Profession were deliberately removed from the list.
EDIT 2: Savage Nobles have Jump skill which was merged into Acrobatics.
Thanks! I'll fix that now.
I spent some time reading the list of talents, and was long enough that my eyes were getting tired halfway through. You have a good number of skill related talents and of combat related ones. Thats good. You have quite a bit of disparity between some of them. For example, one gives +2 or +4 to handle animal, but another gives +1/2 level to Diplomacy and two knowledg skills. Here are my thoughts on correcting that.
Standardize the skill bonuses. Make them all +1/2 level, and two skills per talent would be a good compromise. Handle Animal and Ride could go hand in hand. Diplomacy and Bluff, Kn. Nobility and Kn. History, etc.
Another talent lets the character roll twice on Sense Motive by spending 1 point. I think this can be broadened.
Noble Effort: By spending one point when you make a skill check or ability check, you can roll twice and use the better of the two. Each additional time you use this talent per day, it costs one additional point to use.
I spent some time reading the list of talents, and was long enough that my eyes were getting tired halfway through. You have a good number of skill related talents and of combat related ones. Thats good. You have quite a bit of disparity between some of them. For example, one gives +2 or +4 to handle animal, but another gives +1/2 level to Diplomacy and two knowledg skills. Here are my thoughts on correcting that.
Standardize the skill bonuses. Make them all +1/2 level, and two skills per talent would be a good compromise. Handle Animal and Ride could go hand in hand. Diplomacy and Bluff, Kn. Nobility and Kn. History, etc.
Good call. Laurel had to suggest something similar regarding unification - I have a nasty habit of this.
Another talent lets the character roll twice on Sense Motive by spending 1 point. I think this can be broadened.
Noble Effort: By spending one point when you make a skill check or ability check, you can roll twice and use the better of the two. Each additional time you use this talent per day, it costs one additional point to use.
Another good call. I appreciate your suggestions.=)
I'll try to get them in place this evening.
To be honest I do not like dominion, simply because not everybody is going to give a flying monkey's butt about what ever tittle or position they hold. Let's say the adventurer party goes to raid a dragons lair. First they are most likely not part of the culture so the noble has no authority over the dragon and you are attacking it. And to give a more extreme example, the king is fed up with the noble for some reason and decides to attack the character, they would clearly outrank them so their status means absolutely nothing. And then we could go what about people from invading army, heck more than few would especially target the noble since most likely they could be used to get money from ransom.
The original version took all of the things you mention above into consideration, believe it or not. The current version is a thought I had to "fix" the problems I had with the original.
The capstone ability I originally had included the limitations you mentioned above: social standing, criminals not really giving a crap about adding the murder of a noble to the list of their crimes, and so on. The problem I have - and still have apparently - is I honestly cannot figure out a better way to do it. With the limitations in place, the noble's capstone is useful in only very select areas and can be arbitrarily ignore based on a GM's determination for the "targets," which is not the case for other capstone abilities.
Without the limitations in place, it can causes issues of plausibility: Example: Dragon Lair - he gets pissed they're there. The noble uses "dominion" (probably should have named it "Parley?", "Diplomatic Intervention," or "Discretion is the Better Part of Valor" instead of "Dominion", as the connotations end up wrong, as you point out). If he fails his save, why does he care, as in your example? Possibly, the noble is saying just the right thing to allow negotiation to occur - which ends if the noble or his allies attack. It would grant the noble up to 2 minutes to try and plead his case. This could function for the King example as well.
However, I am not so stubborn (or foolish) as to hold onto a mechanic that's not well-supported or just doesn't work thematically. I will gladly accept and consider any suggestions for a better capstone - I'm just at a loss as to a viable alternative.
Made a few more of the suggested changes.
Changes & Notes
Changed Personal Affront - Add a Savoir-faire cost to it.
Unified Skill Bonus: Poisoner, Master Poisoner, Animal Trainer, Expert Trainer
Removed Talents: Artistocratic Pursuits (Standard), Hard to Fool (Standard), Honeyed Words (Standard), and Thoughtful Reexamining (Advanced).
Added (Replacement) Talents: Skill Confidence (Standard), Assured Skill (Advanced).
Base Class: The Noble.
long ago someone wanted PC equivalent of NPC classes.
I appreciate the link. I definitely like some of what I read in there, though that's to be expected considering the author. His noble is not quite what I'm looking for, sadly.
Base Class: The Noble.
I removed Diplomacy from Aristocratic Erudition and used Diplomacy and Bluff for the "Savvy" talent.
Going to try and work on alternate capstone abilities. I actually considered granting them a "Mind Blank" effect, among a few others.
Edit: Rephrased Dominion and shifted it into "The Art of Diplomacy" at 19th level, added in Courtly Masque as the capstone.
I rewrote the Marshall class years ago. For my capstone, I gave them Command as a spell-like ability with DC=10+1/2 level+cha. My idea of a 18-20 level power then isn't quite up to the level of what PF had though.
I rewrote the Marshall class years ago. For my capstone, I gave them Command as a spell-like ability with DC=10+1/2 level+cha. My idea of a 18-20 level power then isn't quite up to the level of what PF had though.
I have a little trouble with things here and there, but either other folks come up with brilliant ideas (like you and Laurel getting me to unify things) or I get inspired on my own. The capstones, regardless of the class I'm toying with, are a mega-pain in the butt for me.
I don't really have anything to add as constructive comments, but I must say that I am excited to see this class finished. I run a lot of games that deal more with social interactions than with combat, so this class would be wonderful for that.
I don't really have anything to add as constructive comments, but I must say that I am excited to see this class finished. I run a lot of games that deal more with social interactions than with combat, so this class would be wonderful for that.
I'm delighted you like it. I have a lot of players (8-9 on any given night) and about 50% of them really enjoy the social settings over combat, while the other half really love the combat with occasional social interaction. We'd used the Conan d20 noble for a few years and though we liked it (just not enough to keep using it), it just did not capture the idea overall.
At this point, I suspect there will only be minor tweaks or the addition of new talents & archetypes.
I'm going begin work on the first Archetype, which will probably be the Huntsman/Huntress (an archetype for falconry/hunting/war dogs with a decidedly real-world Medieval air to it). I really have never liked the animal companion rules, so I'm going to try a slightly different version which I use for mounts and hope it works out the way I want.
The major focus will be on the horse, hound & hawk (or falcon) with an equipment focus of those used by the historical nobility (bow and arrow or crossbow, lance or spear, and sword) and the horn for communication with other hunters.
Just one thing: could you add a couple more choices of groups to the weapon training? Just one or two more, maybe bow and polearms. Maybe it's just me, but I strongly dislike anything that would shoehorn a class into a sigle fighting style.
Just one thing: could you add a couple more choices of groups to the weapon training? Just one or two more, maybe bow and polearms. Maybe it's just me, but I strongly dislike anything that would shoehorn a class into a sigle fighting style.
Yeah, I think that's the one thing I forgot to do. Bigger Club suggested rewriting the title class feature to reflect other cultures and with the other cultures would come different selections of weapons. On top of that, I think I should probably have 1-3 options for each "culture", like for the medieval version a set for blades, polearms, and maybe bows.
I'll see if I can get that started tomorrow.
I really like this. Its bardy without being musicy.
Sorry double post X.X
I really like this. Its bardy without being musicy.
I tried my best to give them nothing but "mundane" abilities, save for the capstone. I'd given some consideration to granting them the ability to select the rogue's magic talents or come up with some really specific to what'd be useful in court life.
I should have another update this evening regarding the weapons mentioned in my previous post. My daughter does not like it when daddy is typing or reading when she's awake.=)
hehe :) I recall there was a Noble class In dragonstar that had something like Noble training there were several levels to it.
Ahh here it is.
https://sites.google.com/site/dragonstarreboot/Home/classes/nobel
Are you planning on sprucing up the other Basic classes like Expert?
hehe :) I recall there was a Noble class In dragonstar that had something like Noble training there were several levels to it.
Ahh here it is.
https://sites.google.com/site/dragonstarreboot/Home/classes/nobel
Are you planning on sprucing up the other Basic classes like Expert
I'd never heard of Dragonstar, but the noble class they present is definitely interesting. I like a lot of it.
I'd given it some consideration at one point - revamping the other NPC classes, until Nutcase linked this Epic Meepo's Archetypes.
While I like my PC-base for the noble, his archetypes for the NPC aristocrat, warrior, expert, and adept are excellent.
hehe :) I recall there was a Noble class In dragonstar that had something like Noble training there were several levels to it.
Ahh here it is.
https://sites.google.com/site/dragonstarreboot/Home/classes/nobel
Are you planning on sprucing up the other Basic classes like Expert?
Seems nice, but it is half-way between DnD 3.5 and Pathfinder (apparently an incomplete conversion).
Yeah, it's neat, but uses some of the mechanics that drove me away from most noble classes. One of the aspects I have hated about noble classes (D&D - Krynn's version, Star Wars Revised [3.5] versions, and many others) are the Coordinate +X, Inspire +X, and so on abilities with tons of dead levels. The Star Wars Saga Edition & Conan d20 versions have been what I've considered the "best". Tried to drawn a lot of inspiration from both.=)
Notes/Updates
Changed the Noble's Weapons training. The noble may select the group he chooses instead of being 1-2 choices only. Ultimately, the martial weapon proficiency covers what the noble would be trained in as a general rule, with Weapons Training representing a more specialized study. Perhaps the noble goes with the weapons favored by his culture, perhaps he studied abroad and learned the techniques of an Eastern series of weapons. I figure, the simpler the better.
The title section was rephrased to be a little more inclusive.
The following link has my first attempt at an archetype for the Noble, based off a suggestion by Laurel, the Falconer. It is a decidedly Western approach, which is intentional.
Archetype: Falconer
Constructive criticism is much appreciated.
So, I had a thought while drinking my coffee this morning regarding the Drow Noble race and some of the other races.
Does anyone see any issues with allowing the races using the "Noble Class" selecting their Racial Feats as Talents, i.e. a talent, selectable multiple times, that would allow them to select their racial feats with the standard prerequisites required by said feat?
Good to have some free noble and falconing stuff out there. ;)