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The Core Rulebook clearly states that multiple doses of poison in the same round increases the DC of the poison by +2 for each dose of poison.
I have two questions regarding this:
1: Assume that a PC has been exposed to 4 doses of poison in one round. This would increase the DC +6. Assume that the PC has a miracle fort save and saves. Next round, the PC is exposed to another 4 doses. Does the DC stay at +6, having reset at the end of the round, or is the DC now +14, including the 4 doses from the previous round.
2: Assume that the PC failed his +6 increased DC save and is now poisoned. Before he gets his next save, he's exposed to another 4 doses of the poison. Now that he is already poisoned, do the new doses of the poison increase his save, or do they have no affect since he is already poisoned?
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Poor fellow, taking 8 different hits worth of damage. He may be dead before the save is even needing to be rolled ;)
Poor fellow, taking 8 different hits worth of damage. He may be dead before the save is even needing to be rolled ;)
Quite possible, unless they were all coming from a hand crossbow.
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There's a very nice clarification block at the end of this page.
two things:
A: That explanation directly contradicts the example in the Rulebook:
When you are initially exposed to a poison (whether during your action or someone else's), you must make a save to avoid being poisoned.
-Success You resist being poisoned. You do not suffer any ill effects and you need not make any further saves.
-Failure You are poisoned and immediately suffer the listed effect. You will need to make further saves to avoid more damage and cure the poison.
Exception If the poison has an onset period, failing the initial check does NOT cause you to suffer any effects.If you are exposed to more of the same poison at any point while you are poisoned, you need to make a new initial save at +2 DC.
-Success You resist the new dose and carry on as if it never happened (this success does not count toward the requisite "consecutive saves" for curing any poison that is already in your system)
-Failure The DC for all subsequent checks are increased by 2 and the duration of the poison is increased by half of the listed value. (eg if you are poisoned with a poison with a DC 11, being exposed again forces you to make a save at DC 13. If you fail this, all your future checks to cure the poison, avoid damage, or resist being poisoned again are at DC 13 - and the duration is increased by half. If you are exposed for a third time, you would need to save at DC 15 against the new dose, etc)
Here is the example in the book
For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.
Under the rules explanation you posted, the DC to resist a poison only increases if you are exposed to multiple doses while already poisoned. Therefore, the character in the example would have to make 3 saves. The 1st would be at a DC 14. If he fails, then he makes another with a DC 16 and if he fails, he makes another at a DC 18. But if he succeeds on the 1st save, he makes another save at a DC 14 and if he succeeds again, he makes another save at a DC 14. But that seems to contradict the example from the Core Rulebook and I have never seen anyone apply the rules that way.
B: It doesn't really answer my 1st question. If a character receives multiple doses of poison in a round and resists them all, does the increased DC persist to the next round, or does it reset?
If it is a one save poison then it is done. If it is a two save poison then you are assumed to still be poisoned, so it persist.
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Let me phrase it another way:
My understand of the rules is this:
Say I get shot with 4 crossbow bolts in a round. Each bolt has got a dose of Drow Sleep poison on it.
My understanding is that I have to make 4 saves
1st save at 13 (the DC of the poison)
2nd save at 15 (DC +2)
3rd save at 17 (DC +4)
4th save at 19 (DC +6)
Now lets say I am a baller and make all those saves. Next round, nasty McDrowbag shoots me 4 more times
My understanding is that I would have to make ANOTHER 4 saves.
1st save at 21(DC +8)
2nd save at 23(DC +10)
3rd save at 25(DC +12)
4th save at 27(DC +14)
now my understanding is also that once I am poisoned, I must make all subsequent saves at the DC at which I am poisoned.
My understanding is also that once I am poisoned, if future applications are applied, I must make another save at the DC at which I was poisoned +2. If I fail, then my new DC is the old DC +2.
Is That Correct?
I'm aware that the example in the book is different, but to be honest, the example in the book doesn't make sense given PF's own rules on poison saves: i.e., you make one every time you are exposed to poison (and a successful save means you weren't poisoned, period, end of story) not 1 save on your initiative count for all exposures over the past round.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Let me phrase it another way:
My understand of the rules is this:
Say I get shot with 4 crossbow bolts in a round. Each bolt has got a dose of Drow Sleep poison on it.
My understanding is that I have to make 4 saves
1st save at 13 (the DC of the poison)
2nd save at 15 (DC +2)
3rd save at 17 (DC +4)
4th save at 19 (DC +6)Now lets say I am a baller and make all those saves.
Keep in mind that if you make the initial save against a poison, you don't get poisoned at all.
So the first bolt hits you, and you have to make a DC 13 fort save. If you make it, then you're not poisoned and the second bolt's poison DC is still 13. It's only if you fail and actually get poisoned that the next dose is at an increased DC.
Next round, nasty McDrowbag shoots me 4 more times
My understanding is that I would have to make ANOTHER 4 saves.
1st save at 21(DC +8)
2nd save at 23(DC +10)
3rd save at 25(DC +12)
4th save at 27(DC +14)now my understanding is also that once I am poisoned, I must make all subsequent saves at the DC at which I am poisoned.
Also be aware (can't tell if you are from your posts) that no matter how many doses you manage to get coursing through your veins, you still only make one save at each interval frequency. So if you failed your save against (say) five of the drow's bolts, you'll have five doses of poison active, but only make one save per round (at a heightened DC, and for an increased duration).
Is that helpful at all?
Let me phrase it another way:
My understand of the rules is this:
Say I get shot with 4 crossbow bolts in a round. Each bolt has got a dose of Drow Sleep poison on it.
My understanding is that I have to make 4 saves
1st save at 13 (the DC of the poison)
2nd save at 15 (DC +2)
3rd save at 17 (DC +4)
4th save at 19 (DC +6)Now lets say I am a baller and make all those saves. Next round, nasty McDrowbag shoots me 4 more times
My understanding is that I would have to make ANOTHER 4 saves.
1st save at 21(DC +8)
2nd save at 23(DC +10)
3rd save at 25(DC +12)
4th save at 27(DC +14)now my understanding is also that once I am poisoned, I must make all subsequent saves at the DC at which I am poisoned.
My understanding is also that once I am poisoned, if future applications are applied, I must make another save at the DC at which I was poisoned +2. If I fail, then my new DC is the old DC +2.
Is That Correct?
No sir. You make the save upon being poisoned, and you make the saves again at the start of you initiative.
2. The saving throw DC is increased by +2 for every active dose currently affecting the character. Poisons that were cured, have run through their entire frequency, or were negated with a successful initial saving throw do not increase the DC.
That is why I said earlier that once you make the save the poison is gone, assuming it is a one save poison
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Ok, I think I understand, the problem is that the way we have always done it is how the book describes: Every time you take a dose of poison, the DC increases by +2.
How we have always done it:
Bob takes a dose of poison (DC 15 save) and saves.
Bob takes another dose of poison (DC 17) and saves.
Bob takes a third dose of poison (DC 19) and fails, taking a round of poison damage.
Bob gets another save next round (DC 19) and fails, taking another round of poison damage. Meanwhile Bob is bitten again (DC 21) and saves, so the DC stays the same.
Bob gets another save next round (DC 19) and fails, taking another round of poison damage. Meanwhile Bob is bitten again (DC 21) and fails, so the DC goes up to 21.
Bob gets another save next round and saves (DC 21) and cures himself of the poison.
Next round Bob gets bitten again (DC 15) and saves.
So my understand from what you all have described is that instead it should be like this:
Bob takes a dose of poison (DC 15 save) and saves.
Bob takes another dose of poison (DC 15) and saves.
Bob takes a third dose of poison (DC 15) and fails, taking a round of poison damage.
Bob gets another save next round (DC 15) and fails, taking another round of poison damage. Meanwhile Bob is bitten again (DC 17) and saves, so the DC stays the same.
Bob gets another save next round (DC 15) and fails, taking another round of poison damage. Meanwhile Bob is bitten again (DC 17) and fails, so the DC goes up to 17.
Bob gets another save next round and saves (DC 17) and cures himself of the poison.
Next round Bob gets bitten again (DC 15) and saves.
Is that correct? And if so, why does the book describe a different scenario in the poison section of the glossary? Because my understand was that the point of poison was that the DC stacks so that if you take enough doses, failure is inevitable.
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Well that's good to know, but if that's the case, then why is the book's description so screwy and why are poisons so difficult to use? My understand was that poison use is so difficult because the poison DC's stacked on every application.
EDIT: It also bothers me that we've been doing it wrong for YEARS based on the book's rules.
It's anyone's guess, but I believe that what the Devs had originally intended was for poison stacking to operate in the way that is described in the erroneous spider example, but they realized that poison is generally a GM tool: the prices (mainly) and stigma generally make poison unattractive to players. As you have astutely said, poison stacking in that manner makes it incredibly difficult to save against, given enough applications in a round, and can easily get out of hand and create almost always TPK situations.
EDIT: I also agree that Jiggy's interpretation is a possibility, and that the scenario was just poorly worded.
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It was hard for a lot of us to understand until the poison Blog came out.
That is where I got the answers to your questions from. I have the blog listed in my wishlist section, and since I like to use poison in games I know the rules pretty well also. :)
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Well thanks for your help guys! Normally this doesn't come up much, but I had been playing around with a poison based alchemist and while doing some playtesting and realized that the rules we've been using for the past few years would allow me to murder things with poison DC's in the 30's.
EDIT: That blog is very helpful. I'm definitely a player who learns by example and those scenarios help a lot.