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Part of movement is checking, at the end of movement, whether the character is in a legal space. Are you ok with a character air walking up through the center of a room without some means of doing so? If not, then why is it ok when followed by an attack? Sounds to me like the character ended his movement in an illegal space.
The acrobatics skill allows a character to do so. Make your skill check and the action happens. Landing is part of the skill check. Tthere is no mention in the rules of jump height being limited by remaining movement. I am just as legal to jump at the end of my movement as the begining, in or out of combat.
If the flyer is stupid enough to remain that low, it deserves to get hit.
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I think the answers here are common sense and work well. I seem to recall, however, that if your jump check exceeds your movement that your jump is split between two rounds.
I don't think this should be seen as being frozen in the air, that is just what it looks like because we are talking about a round based game not a real time one. Just like a fighter does not freeze after his attack and sit there while a monster bites him. He is assumed to be weaving and parrying.
I handle this like a flyby attack. The characters jump divided into two rounds. If he attacks in the first he does not get an attack on the same target in the second as he is flying (jumping) by. He could get an attack on a different target in his path, however.
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The acrobatics skill allows a character to do so. Make your skill check and the action happens. Landing is part of the skill check. There is no mention in the rules of jump height being limited by remaining movement. I am just as legal to jump at the end of my movement as the beginning, in or out of combat.
If the flyer is stupid enough to remain that low, it deserves to get hit.
Landing is part of the skill check - I agree, but would say, if you have the movement to make the jump. When you run out of movement in a jump, you fall.
"Jumping is a part of movement" from: James Jacobs (Creative Director) Apr 5, 2010, 01:31 PM. Thus you can not jump more than your allowed movement.
Part of movement is checking, at the end of movement, whether the character is in a legal space. Are you ok with a character air walking up through the center of a room without some means of doing so? If not, then why is it ok when followed by an attack? Sounds to me like the character ended his movement in an illegal space.The acrobatics skill allows a character to do so. Make your skill check and the action happens. Landing is part of the skill check. Tthere is no mention in the rules of jump height being limited by remaining movement. I am just as legal to jump at the end of my movement as the begining, in or out of combat.
If the flyer is stupid enough to remain that low, it deserves to get hit.
Right except the acrobatics check is part of a move action which is a discrete action while the attack is a standard action another discrete action. You certainly could jump up within range of the target and then land safely, however the issue becomes when you stop your move action to start your standard action. If you allow the person to jump up (move), attack (standard) and then land safely (move) you are simulating Spring Attack. However if you let them jump up (move), attack (standard) and then fall down (no action) that follows the action economy rules and then allows players with Spring Attack to do something cooler which is what feats are all about. Now that may be totally fine in your book, just don't be surprised when an enterprising character takes that to mean acrobatics lets you spring attack and he decides to jump over an enemy attack them and then land well beyond them.
Again like Movement:
Your Movement ends once you do an attack.
So you would jump (acrobatics roll to make sure you reach the flyer) to the square adjacent the flyer, the standard action to attack, your round would end, and you would fall, rolling an acrobatic check for damage (if high enough) and landing on your feet.
You would land on the square adjacent to the flyer, not underneath by game mechanics (you cannot continue moving).
Right except the acrobatics check is part of a move action which is a discrete action while the attack is a standard action another discrete action. You certainly could jump up within range of the target and then land safely, however the issue becomes when you stop your move action to start your standard action. If you allow the person to jump up (move), attack (standard) and then land safely (move) you are simulating Spring Attack. However if you let them jump up (move), attack (standard) and then fall down (no action) that follows the action economy rules and then allows players with Spring Attack to do something cooler which is what feats are all about. Now that may be totally fine in your book, just don't be surprised when an enterprising character takes that to mean acrobatics lets you spring attack and he decides to jump over an enemy attack them and then land well beyond them.Part of movement is checking, at the end of movement, whether the character is in a legal space. Are you ok with a character air walking up through the center of a room without some means of doing so? If not, then why is it ok when followed by an attack? Sounds to me like the character ended his movement in an illegal space.The acrobatics skill allows a character to do so. Make your skill check and the action happens. Landing is part of the skill check. Tthere is no mention in the rules of jump height being limited by remaining movement. I am just as legal to jump at the end of my movement as the begining, in or out of combat.
If the flyer is stupid enough to remain that low, it deserves to get hit.
It isn't simulating the benefits of Spring Attack. Unlike Spring Attack, you are still going to provoke when you jump up. Furthermore, this is for such a specific situation that I think it's okay for them to jump, attack, and land. How often do people go against flying creatures that are within their reach?
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Right except the acrobatics check is part of a move action which is a discrete action while the attack is a standard action another discrete action. You certainly could jump up within range of the target and then land safely, however the issue becomes when you stop your move action to start your standard action. If you allow the person to jump up (move), attack (standard) and then land safely (move) you are simulating Spring Attack. However if you let them jump up (move), attack (standard) and then fall down (no action) that follows the action economy rules and then allows players with Spring Attack to do something cooler which is what feats are all about. Now that may be totally fine in your book, just don't be surprised when an enterprising character takes that to mean acrobatics lets you spring attack and he decides to jump over an enemy attack them and then land well beyond them.
Good point... We need could really use a FAQ on this. I don't know if I've ever seen so many different views on a topic in so few posts.
On a related note. If a character walks to a cliff and falls, how many rounds does it take for her to reach the ground.
Let's say a 300ft fall.
Does she immediatly fall to the ground, since falling is a free action?
Does she fall slower if she uses a standard action mid-air?
Does she fall slower if she jumps down, because jumping is a move action, and she can only make up to two of those per round?
What if she has Feather Fall or Slow Fall?
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OK, I updated it a bit from comments.
Melee Attacking flying creature:
Make acrobatics check as part of move action Success means you can reach the flying creature to attack it and Failure means you cannot reach the flying creature.
If deemed you can reach the flying creature you may attack and land within the movement allowed, but still provoke an AoO for moving, attacking and moving, unless you have spring attack. Additionally you can add long jumping distance to your overall high/long jump you may land beyond the flying creature.
If the distance required to land it greater than your allowed movement you immediately fall to the ground adjacent to the flying creature, which would require you to make a (free action) acrobatics check or fall prone and take appropriate damage.
In either case (unless you have spring attack), because you continue to move you would provoke an AoO. If you begin falling after attack the flying creature the creature attack your flatfooted AC.
Charge applies normally +2 to attack -2 to AC.
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On a related note. If a character walks to a cliff and falls, how many rounds does it take for her to reach the ground.
Let's say a 300ft fall.
Does she immediatly fall to the ground, since falling is a free action?
Does she fall slower if she uses a standard action mid-air?
Does she fall slower if she jumps down, because jumping is a move action, and she can only make up to two of those per round?
What if she has Feather Fall or Slow Fall?
500 ft in the first round, and 1500 ft for each subsequent round (terminal velocity).
On a related note. If a character walks to a cliff and falls, how many rounds does it take for her to reach the ground.
Let's say a 300ft fall.
Does she immediatly fall to the ground, since falling is a free action?
Does she fall slower if she uses a standard action mid-air?
Does she fall slower if she jumps down, because jumping is a move action, and she can only make up to two of those per round?
What if she has Feather Fall or Slow Fall?
I forget where I read it but I think you immediately fall up to 500 feet then 1000 feet per round there after.
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500 ft in the first round, and 1500 ft for each subsequent round (terminal velocity).On a related note. If a character walks to a cliff and falls, how many rounds does it take for her to reach the ground.
Let's say a 300ft fall.
Does she immediatly fall to the ground, since falling is a free action?
Does she fall slower if she uses a standard action mid-air?
Does she fall slower if she jumps down, because jumping is a move action, and she can only make up to two of those per round?
What if she has Feather Fall or Slow Fall?
Okay, so if a character jumps up to her movement (or twice his movement speed, if we consider a charge) and then uses a standard action to attack a creature, doesn't it make sense that she would immediatly fall up to 500ft afterwards?
Jump 60ft (move action), hit dragons (standard action), fall 60ft (free action).
In one round you're up in the air and back to the ground. Seems simple enough.
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Again like Movement:
Your Movement ends once you do an attack.
So you would jump (acrobatics roll to make sure you reach the flyer) to the square adjacent the flyer, the standard action to attack, your round would end, and you would fall, rolling an acrobatic check for damage (if high enough) and landing on your feet.
This falling bit at the end: I've seen it talked about in this thread either as a non-action or as a free action. If a character moves, he cannot thereafter make a 5-foot-step in conjunction. That 5-step is a non-action. Here, the character is being described as intentionally making a move action that includes a jump, then a standard action, then an additional action of some sort that could be 2 feet...or 100 feet; with that last part being ok in the same situation as he could not take a 5-foot-step. The action-economy is completely broken in this situation. Give the jumping character a fly speed, and he can't take the indicated action sequence.
BTW, the acrobatics check to reduce damage only accompanies a deliberate jump. "When you deliberately fall any distance, even as a result of a missed jump, a DC 15 Acrobatics skill check allows you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen, although you still end up prone if you take damage from a fall. See the falling rules for further details."
The rules seem to generate a condition that people don't like. I don't like the result that I've described. How it is then best handled is a house-rule matter. Feat, Skill, CMD...could see lots of ways to handle this.
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I've never agreed with the notion that falling should count against your movement. The rule I quoted before about fly check for taking damage to avoid falling 10 ft yet no mention of it cutting into your speed for the next round goes completely against this notion, too. By that ruling, someone freefalling can't take actions (other than free/swift/immediate), because he has to devote his move action and standard action (ie, double move) to falling. Since he obviously can't say, "You know what? I want my full round action this turn, I choose to stop falling."
On another note, why do so many people think that someone jumping off the ground, and landing...on the ground... should be taking falling damage? That's completely unrealistic and a crazy nerf to melee. What is the reasoning here? Does melee having the ability to strike at creatures hovering over there heads instead of being worthless take a back seat in priority to validating the Spring Attack feat's existence? Seriously?
Again, very simple. You have the height you can reach vertically. You have the height you can jump vertically based on the jump check result. You add these 2 numbers together. Then you land. It's simple, realistic, and fun!
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500 ft in the first round, and 1500 ft for each subsequent round (terminal velocity).On a related note. If a character walks to a cliff and falls, how many rounds does it take for her to reach the ground.
Let's say a 300ft fall.
Does she immediatly fall to the ground, since falling is a free action?
Does she fall slower if she uses a standard action mid-air?
Does she fall slower if she jumps down, because jumping is a move action, and she can only make up to two of those per round?
What if she has Feather Fall or Slow Fall?
Okay, so if a character jumps up to her movement (or twice his movement speed, if we consider a charge) and then uses a standard action to attack a creature, doesn't it make sense that she would immediatly fall up to 500ft afterwards?
Jump 60ft (move action), hit dragons (standard action), fall 60ft (free action).
In one round you're up in the air and back to the ground. Seems simple enough.
Yea, that works but you would provoke and since your falling you would be flat footed.
Thus +2 attack (charge) and -2 AC (charge) + flatfooted for dragon AoO. Still no problem that you would be allowed to try it if you could jump 60' high or out over a 60' cliff.
The advantage is in grappling a flying creature. Well not a dragon, but perhaps a Harpy and try and drag it down.
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I've never agreed with the notion that falling should count against your movement. The rule I quoted before about fly check for taking damage to avoid falling 10 ft yet no mention of it cutting into your speed for the next round goes completely against this notion, too. By that ruling, someone freefalling can't take actions (other than free/swift/immediate), because he has to devote his move action and standard action (ie, double move) to falling. Since he obviously can't say, "You know what? I want my full round action this turn, I choose to stop falling."
On another note, why do so many people think that someone jumping off the ground, and landing...on the ground... should be taking falling damage? That's completely unrealistic and a crazy nerf to melee. What is the reasoning here? Does melee having the ability to strike at creatures hovering over there heads instead of being worthless take a back seat in priority to validating the Spring Attack feat's existence? Seriously?
Again, very simple. You have the height you can reach vertically. You have the height you can jump vertically based on the jump check result. You add these 2 numbers together. Then you land. It's simple, realistic, and fun!
We think that a person jumping 10 feet + requires an acrobatics check to avoid landing prone and taking damage because it specifically says so under the acrobatics skill. Everything I've posted in this thread has come directly out of the book.
I would probably rule it like Howie: Spring Attack would be required to perform such a "feat".
I've never agreed with the notion that falling should count against your movement. The rule I quoted before about fly check for taking damage to avoid falling 10 ft yet no mention of it cutting into your speed for the next round goes completely against this notion, too. By that ruling, someone freefalling can't take actions (other than free/swift/immediate), because he has to devote his move action and standard action (ie, double move) to falling. Since he obviously can't say, "You know what? I want my full round action this turn, I choose to stop falling."
Exactly. It's not like the character is acting or choosing to fall. It's as if gravity were bull-rushing the character and overcoming her CMB every time. I called it a free-action, but in retrospective, it's not even that, since it's not the character's decision or actions that make her fall.
On another note, why do so many people think that someone jumping off the ground, and landing...on the ground... should be taking falling damage? That's completely unrealistic and a crazy nerf to melee. What is the reasoning here? Does melee having the ability to strike at creatures hovering over there heads instead of being worthless take a back seat in priority to validating the Spring Attack feat's existence? Seriously?
It could make sense that the guy takes damage when falling. Maybe she has very powerful legs, but is not very coordinated, so she doesn't fall on her feet. That's why I'd maybe call an (easy) Acrobatics check. But then again, my priority is for the character to do something cool so the player can have fun, Spring Attack be damned. That is why I'd rule that Jumpy does not provoke AoO from the flying creature (although I'd make her provoke from any creature who happens to be threatening her square when she jumped).
Again, very simple. You have the height you can reach vertically. You have the height you can jump vertically based on the jump check result. You add these 2 numbers together. Then you land. It's´simple, realistic, and fun!
Agreed. Bolded for emphasis, (realism is not a issue, IMO).
We think that a person jumping 10 feet + requires an acrobatics check to avoid landing prone and taking damage because it specifically says so under the acrobatics skill. Everything I've posted in this thread has come directly out of the book.I've never agreed with the notion that falling should count against your movement. The rule I quoted before about fly check for taking damage to avoid falling 10 ft yet no mention of it cutting into your speed for the next round goes completely against this notion, too. By that ruling, someone freefalling can't take actions (other than free/swift/immediate), because he has to devote his move action and standard action (ie, double move) to falling. Since he obviously can't say, "You know what? I want my full round action this turn, I choose to stop falling."
On another note, why do so many people think that someone jumping off the ground, and landing...on the ground... should be taking falling damage? That's completely unrealistic and a crazy nerf to melee. What is the reasoning here? Does melee having the ability to strike at creatures hovering over there heads instead of being worthless take a back seat in priority to validating the Spring Attack feat's existence? Seriously?
Again, very simple. You have the height you can reach vertically. You have the height you can jump vertically based on the jump check result. You add these 2 numbers together. Then you land. It's simple, realistic, and fun!
That's only when you fail the initial acrobatics jump or deliberately fall, not when you pass your Acrobatics check. And no, I don't think the drop down after you reach the apex of your jump is considered "deliberately falling".
Finally, you can use the Acrobatics skill to make jumps or to soften a fall. The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical). These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start. The only Acrobatics modifiers that apply are those concerning the surface you are jumping from. If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump. If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to make the jump and fall (or land prone, in the case of a vertical jump).
Faster Base Movement: Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet. No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.
Running Jump: For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land.
Falling: When you deliberately fall any distance, even as a result of a missed jump, a DC 15 Acrobatics skill check allows you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen, although you still end up prone if you take damage from a fall. See Falling Damage for more details.)
I've never agreed with the notion that falling should count against your movement. The rule I quoted before about fly check for taking damage to avoid falling 10 ft yet no mention of it cutting into your speed for the next round goes completely against this notion, too. By that ruling, someone freefalling can't take actions (other than free/swift/immediate), because he has to devote his move action and standard action (ie, double move) to falling. Since he obviously can't say, "You know what? I want my full round action this turn, I choose to stop falling."
On another note, why do so many people think that someone jumping off the ground, and landing...on the ground... should be taking falling damage? That's completely unrealistic and a crazy nerf to melee. What is the reasoning here? Does melee having the ability to strike at creatures hovering over there heads instead of being worthless take a back seat in priority to validating the Spring Attack feat's existence? Seriously?
Again, very simple. You have the height you can reach vertically. You have the height you can jump vertically based on the jump check result. You add these 2 numbers together. Then you land. It's simple, realistic, and fun!
Ive said I would allow it, I just prefer using the rules that already exist to figure out how it works. If you want to house rule it go for it, but like I said before don't be surprised when someone takes that ruling and tries to do something else you didn't necessarily intend with it. Given that this is the Rules section answering questions using the actual rules seems proper.
In regards to jumping off the ground and landing without taking falling damage that is totally doable with a move action, however you can't stop your move action mid move and attack someone and then continue your move, that is what Spring Attack is for. Most of the time the person jumping up will have the Acrobatics to negate the falling damage as it will likely not be more than 10 feet (that is already a DC 40 acrobatics test). So most of the time it would work out with the person jumping up, attacking, and then falling and landing safely, but in some circumstances the person could jump high enough to possibly take some damage as they have basically sold out on jumping high enough to hit the target and then suffer the consequences.
Realistically the most a person could take under this circumstance is like 2d6 which is 20 feet of falling and a DC 80 acrobatics test. I think you are freaking out over something that isn't really an issue, people are just explaining how a person would do this using the rules of the game which is what the rules forum is for.
I've never agreed with the notion that falling should count against your movement. The rule I quoted before about fly check for taking damage to avoid falling 10 ft yet no mention of it cutting into your speed for the next round goes completely against this notion, too. By that ruling, someone freefalling can't take actions (other than free/swift/immediate), because he has to devote his move action and standard action (ie, double move) to falling. Since he obviously can't say, "You know what? I want my full round action this turn, I choose to stop falling."
On another note, why do so many people think that someone jumping off the ground, and landing...on the ground... should be taking falling damage? That's completely unrealistic and a crazy nerf to melee. What is the reasoning here? Does melee having the ability to strike at creatures hovering over there heads instead of being worthless take a back seat in priority to validating the Spring Attack feat's existence? Seriously?
Again, very simple. You have the height you can reach vertically. You have the height you can jump vertically based on the jump check result. You add these 2 numbers together. Then you land. It's simple, realistic, and fun!
Ive said I would allow it, I just prefer using the rules that already exist to figure out how it works. If you want to house rule it go for it, but like I said before don't be surprised when someone takes that ruling and tries to do something else you didn't necessarily intend with it. Given that this is the Rules section answering questions using the actual rules seems proper.
In regards to jumping off the ground and landing without taking falling damage that is totally doable with a move action, however you can't stop your move action mid move and attack someone and then continue your move, that is what Spring Attack is for. Most of the time the person jumping up will have the Acrobatics to negate the falling damage as it will likely not be more than 10...
There is no falling damage when you jump successfully. None. You only incur it when you fail the Acrobatics check by 5 or more. Then you "fail to make the jump and fall prone".
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Needs a jump check appropriate to the DC, but I would say it doesn't have to be a charge (but needs a clear line of movement to make a running jump anyway, though some classes have ways around this running start). People could make a standing high jump to do this (easier if hasted) but it would be a DC 40 instead of DC 20.
He can make the attack and then provoke an AoO when falling away; I don't think there's any situation where falling does not provoke? He can also make an acrobatics test to avoid the falling damage as he's falling from jumping not straight out falling.
Several people have referred to the landing of their jump as being on the ground. If you plan on attacking the creature in the air the "landing" of your jump has to be in mid air otherwise you cannot make an attack as you have to complete your move action before doing your standard action. You will end up back on the ground as you can't end your turn in mid air so you will fall, acrobatics can help mitigate the effects of this by negating the first 10 feet of falling damage. If you have Spring Attack then you can jump up attack then continue the jump down, its almost like Spring Attack is a feat that allows a character extra maneuverability or something.
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@Odraude
You have jumped 10+ feet in the air. You have deliberately put yourself there, so you are deliberately falling. Your argument is silly, it's like saying "I walked off that cliff, but I'm not deliberately falling, gravity just jumped up and surprised me!"
"Falling: When you deliberately fall any distance, even as a result of a missed jump, a DC 15 Acrobatics skill check allows you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen, although you still end up prone if you take damage from a fall. See Falling Damage for more details.)"
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@Odraude
You have jumped 10+ feet in the air. You have deliberately put yourself there, so you are deliberately falling. Your argument is silly, it's like saying "I walked off that cliff, but I'm not deliberately falling, gravity just jumped up and surprised me!"
"Falling: When you deliberately fall any distance, even as a result of a missed jump, a DC 15 Acrobatics skill check allows you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen, although you still end up prone if you take damage from a fall. See Falling Damage for more details.)"
You're deliberately jumping, not falling. Deliberately falling would be going off a collapsing bridge into a river, or going out of a building into a cart of hay to escape. The rules already cover failed jumps and successful jumps and you only take that fall damage when you fail. And you fall prone.
And hell, if it's silly for me to not punish my players for succeeding in a freaking Jump check, then I'll go ahead and keep on being silly.
We think that a person jumping 10 feet + requires an acrobatics check to avoid landing prone and taking damage because it specifically says so under the acrobatics skill. Everything I've posted in this thread has come directly out of the book.
You should read those rules again then. The rules talking about deliberately falling (as in stepping off the edge of a cliff, down into a pit, etc) is not the same as jumping into the air then falling back to the earth. That is called.... jumping (and landing from a jump), and is fully covered in the description for acrobatics. A successful jump check, by its very nature in the rules, indicates a successful landing on your feet. A failed jump check (if failed by 5 or more), by its very nature results in landing prone. Deliberately falling has its own separate paragraph for reducing damage from falling 10'.
Now if you are coming from the perspective of move action to get into the air, standard action to attack, fall action as free action cause you can't do anything else, then you can talk about reducing the damage from a 10'+ fall.
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@Odraude
You have jumped 10+ feet in the air. You have deliberately put yourself there, so you are deliberately falling. Your argument is silly, it's like saying "I walked off that cliff, but I'm not deliberately falling, gravity just jumped up and surprised me!"
"Falling: When you deliberately fall any distance, even as a result of a missed jump, a DC 15 Acrobatics skill check allows you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen, although you still end up prone if you take damage from a fall. See Falling Damage for more details.)"
You're deliberately jumping, not falling. Deliberately falling would be going off a collapsing bridge into a river, or going out of a building into a cart of hay to escape. The rules already cover failed jumps and successful jumps and you only take that fall damage when you fail. And you fall prone.
And hell, if it's silly for me to not punish my players for succeeding in a freaking Jump check, then I'll go ahead and keep on being silly.
You misunderstand the target of the jump. If the target for your jump is to land on the ground then you can do that without taking falling damage, however you cannot attack mid move without Spring Attack period cannot do it. So if you want to attack the target of your jump has to be up in the air, which would cause you then to fall not because of a failed acrobatics test but from ending your move mid air exactly like if your character walked off a cliff with their movement to swing at a monster hovering just off the edge of the cliff.
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You misunderstand the target of the jump. If the target for your jump is to land on the ground then you can do that without taking falling damage, however you cannot attack mid move without Spring Attack period cannot do it. So if you want to attack the target of your jump has to be up in the air, which would cause you then to fall not because of a failed acrobatics test but from ending your move mid air exactly like if your character walked off a cliff with their movement to swing at a monster hovering just off the edge of the cliff.@Odraude
You have jumped 10+ feet in the air. You have deliberately put yourself there, so you are deliberately falling. Your argument is silly, it's like saying "I walked off that cliff, but I'm not deliberately falling, gravity just jumped up and surprised me!"
"Falling: When you deliberately fall any distance, even as a result of a missed jump, a DC 15 Acrobatics skill check allows you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen, although you still end up prone if you take damage from a fall. See Falling Damage for more details.)"
You're deliberately jumping, not falling. Deliberately falling would be going off a collapsing bridge into a river, or going out of a building into a cart of hay to escape. The rules already cover failed jumps and successful jumps and you only take that fall damage when you fail. And you fall prone.
And hell, if it's silly for me to not punish my players for succeeding in a freaking Jump check, then I'll go ahead and keep on being silly.
THANK YOU!!!! I'm glad someone else is seeing this.
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What if I jump up and attempt to grapple? Are you going to say that's impossible, too? Because by the strict "move action must be completed before the standard action can start" being used to stop the guy swinging his sword, I don't see how it would be legal to grapple, either.
There has to be some level of intelligence applied when reading the rules. Otherwise hovering 1/2" above the reach of a fighter renders you just as un-hittable with a melee weapon as hovering 25' up.
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What if I jump up and attempt to grapple? Are you going to say that's impossible, too? Because by the strict "move action must be completed before the standard action can start" being used to stop the guy swinging his sword, I don't see how it would be legal to grapple, either.There has to be some level of intelligence applied when reading the rules. Otherwise hovering 1/2" above the reach of a fighter renders you just as un-hittable with a melee weapon as hovering 25' up.
No one is saying you can't jump and attack. At least I am not. We are saying that unless you have Spring Attack, you can't move, hit, and then continue your movement. So if you jumped up and grappled successfully either
A) You and your target fall, both taking appropriate damageor
B)Your target maintains flight with you wrapped around it.
Since it can't move while grappled it's going to need to make Fly checks to stay airborne, so most critters/people will probably just choose to fall.
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Okay, with this "spring attack required" ruling, it would mean any falling counts against movement.
This means if my dwarf falls 40ft, he can take no action, as he has moved double his speed.
In fact, that means your land speed determines how far you can fall, and have the possibility to move in one turn.
There is no logical reasoning to this, in physics, RAW, or RAI.
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No one is saying you can't jump and attack. At least I am not.
Some people are, though; they say the move action must be completely resolved (including the issues raised by stopping in an illegal square) before it is possible to make an attack.
We are saying that unless you have Spring Attack, you can't move, hit, and then continue your movement.
It's more 'continue in motion' than 'continue your move action' - you don't really have much control over what happens once you kick off.
So if you jumped up and grappled successfully either
A) You and your target fall, both taking appropriate damageor
B)Your target maintains flight with you wrapped around it.
Since it can't move while grappled it's going to need to make Fly checks to stay airborne, so most critters/people will probably just choose to fall.
What happens if I fail my grapple roll? Do I slam into the target, bounce off, and fall to the ground?
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Okay, with this "spring attack required" ruling, it would mean any falling counts against movement.
This means if my dwarf falls 40ft, he can take no action, as he has moved double his speed.
In fact, that means your land speed determines how far you can fall, and have the possibility to move in one turn.
There is no logical reasoning to this, in physics, RAW, or RAI.
You are completely misreading what is happening. You need Spring Attack to hit, and continue a controlled movement. For everyone else, you can jump, then attack, at which point you begin falling and have to make an acrobatics check to not take damage and fall prone. Spring Attack is only required if you want to make an acrobatics check to jump as part of a move, hit an enemy at the apex of your jump, and then continue in a controlled arc to a safe landing in a square of your choice.
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Okay, with this "spring attack required" ruling, it would mean any falling counts against movement.
This means if my dwarf falls 40ft, he can take no action, as he has moved double his speed.
In fact, that means your land speed determines how far you can fall, and have the possibility to move in one turn.
There is no logical reasoning to this, in physics, RAW, or RAI.
Are you just not reading what we are posting or deliberately being obtuse?
Here is the way things would work.
Under normal rules without having a feat. Move action to jump up next to the target (end move action). Attack creature (standard action). Fall back to the ground as you have ended your turn in mid air (illegal space). Could then use Acrobatics to mitigate falling damage per normal rules.
With Spring Attack. Move action to jump up next to the target and then attack and continue the jump down to the landing (Spring Attack).
How is that so hard to understand? Who said anything about falling taking movement? Falling has nothing to do with your move it is what happens as a result of you jumping up to a spot in mid air.
What has no logical reasoning or support by RAW is your insistence that you can take a standard action during a move action without having Spring Attack. If you want to house rule that you can fine, but it has no bearing on a discussion in the rules forum.
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No one is saying you can't jump and attack. At least I am not.Some people are, though; they say the move action must be completely resolved (including the issues raised by stopping in an illegal square) before it is possible to make an attack.
We are saying that unless you have Spring Attack, you can't move, hit, and then continue your movement.It's more 'continue in motion' than 'continue your move action' - you don't really have much control over what happens once you kick off.
What happens if I fail my grapple roll? Do I slam into the target, bounce off, and fall to the ground?So if you jumped up and grappled successfully either
A) You and your target fall, both taking appropriate damageor
B)Your target maintains flight with you wrapped around it.
Since it can't move while grappled it's going to need to make Fly checks to stay airborne, so most critters/people will probably just choose to fall.
1) I see no reason you couldn't jump up attack, and then fall. It seems well supported in the rules
2)If you have Spring Attack, you could hit the target and then make a controlled landing on the opposite side using your original Acrobatics check to jump. Without Spring Attack, you can't move, attack, and then finish your movement, so the best you could do is jump adjacent, swing, and fall3)If you fail your grapple check, yeah, you miss your grab and have to make an acrobatics check to not fall flat on your face.
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Some are saying that you cannot even perform the task (jump, attack, fall) without spring attack.
I am disagreeing with that.
I am not being willfully obtuse.
I have read previous posts.
I am not too stupid to understand what is being said.
We clear?
Maybe I deserve a bit more insults?
Maybe I deserve them.
Some are saying that you cannot even perform the task (jump, attack, fall) without spring attack.
I am disagreeing with that.
I am not being willfully obtuse.
I have read previous posts.
I am not too stupid to understand what is being said.
We clear?
Maybe I deserve a bit more insults?
Maybe I deserve them.
I apologize if your comments (which were rude) were not directed at me, but seeing as I originated the "spring attack required" ruling and you directly quoted that before making said comments I took that to be referring to me.
My stance is that it is possible to do with or without Spring Attack it is just without Spring Attack your risk falling damage and possibly an attack of opportunity.
I don't think I have seen anyone past the 3rd or 4th post say they flat out wouldn't allow it.
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Some are saying that you cannot even perform the task (jump, attack, fall) without spring attack.
I am disagreeing with that.
I am not being willfully obtuse.
I have read previous posts.
I am not too stupid to understand what is being said.
We clear?
Maybe I deserve a bit more insults?
Maybe I deserve them.
Sorry BBT, but it's easy to see how Biggdawg might have thought you were addressing either him or myself since no one in the last 47 posts has tried to say you need Spring Attack just to jump and attack. I think several people are a little confused about exactly what people are trying to say in this thread...
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Let me break down my view on this so we're all perfectly clear:
1) I see no reason a person can't jump into the air with the appropriate acrobatics check and attack a target.
2) If you do not have Spring Attack, you cannot attack and continue your movement, so, if you don't have Spring Attack, your jump must terminate in the air in a space adjacent to your opponent (this can be 3D adjacent, so it could be the square directly below them, diagonally below them, etc.) make your attack, and then commence falling forcing you to make the appropriate acrobatics check for the distance fallen to avoid taking damage and landing prone.
3) If you do have Spring Attack, you may make a single Acrobatics check to jump as part of a move, strike your enemy in the middle of said move, and then continue your arc to safely land in a square of your choice within your available movement range without having to make a second Acrobatics check.
4) Falling from an adjacent square does not cost you movement, as you are not expending any particular effort to propel yourself, but it does count as deliberately falling since you chose to end your movement in an illegal square (i.e. in the air)
5) Since you are leaving a threatened square when you fall, if you do not have Spring Attack, which specifically prevents the attack of opportunity you might provoke from your target, you may provoke an AoO from your target when you leave the threatened square you attacked from.
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THANK YOU!!!! I'm glad someone else is seeing this.You misunderstand the target of the jump. If the target for your jump is to land on the ground then you can do that without taking falling damage, however you cannot attack mid move without Spring Attack period cannot do it. So if you want to attack the target of your jump has to be up in the air, which would cause you then to fall not because of a failed acrobatics test but from ending your move mid air exactly like if your character walked off a cliff with their movement to swing at a monster hovering just off the edge of the cliff.@Odraude
You have jumped 10+ feet in the air. You have deliberately put yourself there, so you are deliberately falling. Your argument is silly, it's like saying "I walked off that cliff, but I'm not deliberately falling, gravity just jumped up and surprised me!"
"Falling: When you deliberately fall any distance, even as a result of a missed jump, a DC 15 Acrobatics skill check allows you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen, although you still end up prone if you take damage from a fall. See Falling Damage for more details.)"
You're deliberately jumping, not falling. Deliberately falling would be going off a collapsing bridge into a river, or going out of a building into a cart of hay to escape. The rules already cover failed jumps and successful jumps and you only take that fall damage when you fail. And you fall prone.
And hell, if it's silly for me to not punish my players for succeeding in a freaking Jump check, then I'll go ahead and keep on being silly.
OK, Dose this cover the fact that you can't move, attack and move with out spring attack?
Melee attacking flying creature:
Make an acrobatics (jump) check as part of your move action. Success means you can reach the flying creature to melee attack it and failure means you cannot reach the creature in flight.
If deemed you can reach the flying creature you may attack but your move and standard actions ends after your attack, Because you immediately fall after your attack you still provoke an AoO for moving, attacking and moving/falling, unless you have spring attack.
When falling make a free action acrobatics check to avoid falling damage and landing prone.
Since you begin falling after attacking and thus provok an AoO the flying creature will be able to attack attack your flatfooted AC.
Charge applies normally +2 to attack -2 to AC.
(it's actually getting simpler)
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I think BBT's response is to my position, which IS that you would need Spring Attack to jump-then-attack-while-mid-air-then-keep-moving. Not sure how many posts ago it was, I'm not keeping count. I think that the rules do not support a mid-air attack.
People are envisioning the jump-attack as a single swing at the apex of the jump. The D&D family of games has a tradition, in some editions more clearly stated than others, that an attack roll doesn't represent every instance that the creature attempted to make contact. Rather, it is the opportunity within a series or sequence of feints, blocked thrusts, etc. The standard action attack at the end of the jump-attack isn't a single motion.
Everyone can charge: this is a coordinated movement and attack.
Everyone can move and then attack.
Some people can Spring Attack: this is a coordinated movement, attack, and subsequent movement.
Some people can fly in to engage a baddie, and subsequently full attack (by having the ability to fly and make necessary Fly skill checks to hover).
Some people can fly-attack-and-then-move-again. They have the ability to fly and Fly-By Attack.
Some people can ride a flying mount, charge, and continue to move. They have a flying mount and Ride-by Attack.
For most people posting in this thread, jumping and then making an attack at the apex that is coordinated with that jump, then falling/moving after is something that merely requires an Acrobatics check.
One of these things is not like the other.
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The rules doesn't deal with this well, at least not how people want to see it work. This is what I'm pointing out. Either the action economy has a jumping character ending the jump mid-air (an illegal space), or it has them moving again after the jump (Spring Attack). The characterization of the movement after the attack as involuntary movement is disingenuous.
Should a character be able to make a Hail Mary type attack at the apex of a jump? Yes, I agree this should be possible. I also think it is in the realm of house rules rather than covered within the rules. If we want to talk about possible resolutions for house rules, I'll be happy to talk about it in those forums. Anyone adopting the Acrobatics check on the jump as the sole mechanism here is already discussing it....they're doing so here in the rules forum.
@stjstone
That is how I would rule it and seems to be as close to the rules as you can get.
@blackbloodtroll
I apologize again, I grew frustrated over the course of the thread and took it out on you, regardless of whether your comments were directed at me or not I over reacted, I am sorry for that.
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@stj
I'm going to repost this since it may have been lost in the flurry of discussion there and it has bearing on your question:
Let me break down my view on this so we're all perfectly clear:
1) I see no reason a person can't jump into the air with the appropriate acrobatics check and attack a target.
2) If you do not have Spring Attack, you cannot attack and continue your movement, so, if you don't have Spring Attack, your jump must terminate in the air in a space adjacent to your opponent (this can be 3D adjacent, so it could be the square directly below them, diagonally below them, etc.) make your attack, and then commence falling forcing you to make the appropriate acrobatics check for the distance fallen to avoid taking damage and landing prone.
3) If you do have Spring Attack, you may make a single Acrobatics check to jump as part of a move, strike your enemy in the middle of said move, and then continue your arc to safely land in a square of your choice within your available movement range without having to make a second Acrobatics check.
4) Falling from an adjacent square does not cost you movement, as you are not expending any particular effort to propel yourself, but it does count as deliberately falling since you chose to end your movement in an illegal square (i.e. in the air)
5) Since you are leaving a threatened square when you fall, if you do not have Spring Attack, which specifically prevents the attack of opportunity you might provoke from your target, you may provoke an AoO from your target when you leave the threatened square you attacked from.
To everyone else:
Remember, we're a community of people with shared interests. Let's all try not to get too wound up when people disagree with us on either front and focus on the fact that we're all here to help and share our love of the game :)
(cue Saturday morning Fox Kids music)
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@stj
I'm going to repost this since it may have been lost in the flurry of discussion there and it has bearing on your question:
Let me break down my view on this so we're all perfectly clear:
1) I see no reason a person can't jump into the air with the appropriate acrobatics check and attack a target.2) If you do not have Spring Attack, you cannot attack and continue your movement, so, if you don't have Spring Attack, your jump must terminate in the air in a space adjacent to your opponent (this can be 3D adjacent, so it could be the square directly below them, diagonally below them, etc.) make your attack, and then commence falling forcing you to make the appropriate acrobatics check for the distance fallen to avoid taking damage and landing prone.
3) If you do have Spring Attack, you may make a single Acrobatics check to jump as part of a move, strike your enemy in the middle of said move, and then continue your arc to safely land in a square of your choice within your available movement range without having to make a second Acrobatics check.
4) Falling from an adjacent square does not cost you movement, as you are not expending any particular effort to propel yourself, but it does count as deliberately falling since you chose to end your movement in an illegal square (i.e. in the air)
5) Since you are leaving a threatened square when you fall, if you do not have Spring Attack, which specifically prevents the attack of opportunity you might provoke from your target, you may provoke an AoO from your target when you leave the threatened square you attacked from.
To everyone else:
Remember, we're a community of people with shared interests. Let's all try not to get too wound up when people disagree with us on either front and focus on the fact that we're all here to help and share our love of the game :)
(cue Saturday morning Fox Kids music)
Ssalarn,
I would only add to #5 that when you provoke an AoO from falling that you would at that time be flat-footed.
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Well, you can find JJ's opinion on falling here.
Take that as you will.