Can the rogue talents that affect sneak attack, also affect the sneak attack from an attack spell (where the talent doesn't specify a specific type of attak like Distracting Attack)?
So would an sneak attack ray of frost be able to apply Bleed Attack, for example, to cause bleed damage, or Befuddling Strike / Offensive Defence to have extra effective AC against the opponent?
What about Underhanded? Is a spell considered "a concealed weapon that the opponent doesn't know about"? What if it was Quickened? Still/Silent?
Can the rogue talents that affect sneak attack, also affect the sneak attack from an attack spell (where the talent doesn't specify a specific type of attak like Distracting Attack)?
Distracting Attack** (Ex): "When she hits a creature with a melee attack..."
Did you hit a creature with a melee attack? If not, it doesn't work.
So would an sneak attack ray of frost be able to apply Bleed Attack, for example, to cause bleed damage, or Befuddling Strike / Offensive Defence to have extra effective AC against the opponent?
Bleeding Attack* (Ex): "A rogue with this ability can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue's sneak attack..."
Did you hit a living opponent with a sneak attack? Then they bleed.
Befuddling Strike** (Ex): "When the rogue deals sneak attack damage against an opponent, that opponent takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls against the rogue for 1d4 rounds."
Did you deal sneak attack damage against an opponent? Then that opponent takes a -2 penalty.
Offensive Defense** (Ex): "When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for 1 round."
Did you hit a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage? If not, no bonus.
What about Underhanded? Is a spell considered "a concealed weapon that the opponent doesn't know about"? What if it was Quickened? Still/Silent?
A ray is a weapon, acid splash is not.
As to whether it's concealed, that's going to have some GM variance. I would say if the foe didn't see it coming, it should be concealed. If they can't see/hear you, or if they failed a (simple) perception check to notice you casting, then I would allow Underhanded to work. Ask your GM first.
Spells cannot be used to deal sneak attack damage (rays as weapons being a likely exception).
This isn't so much spelled out in the sneak attack rules, but is strongly implied through the arcane trickster prestige class. Their crowing ability is the added advantage of being able to deal sneak attack damage with their spells.
The arcane trickster's special ability is to deal sneak attack with spells that do not use an attack roll. Anyone can sneak attack with melee touch and ranged touch spells, or spells that otherwise use an attack roll to hit.
The arcane trickster makes no mention of affecting spells that don't use an attack roll. It states "an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage", the implication being that without the ability spells that do damage cannot add sneak attack damage. But this could simply be my view of RAI on it.
Nope.
It's long been established that this ability is intended to take the limitation off sneak attack that it requires an attack roll.
Interesting. Can you provide a source for that one? Thanks.
EDIT: Nevermind, I found it, its a 3.5 carry over. 3.5 sneak attacks
Can you provide a source for that one?
Sneak Attack: "The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."
Not only is a ray a weapon, but a non-ray that requires an attack roll, like Acid Splash is still an attack, and will deal extra damage any time the target is denied dex (and within 30 feet).
Surprise Spells: "At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed."
Note: Any spell that deals damage, like fireball and magic missile (the examples given in the FAQ, neither of which require attack rolls). Also note the requirement of flat-footed, not denied dex.
Thanks Grick. That's how I was reading it. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.
Regarding Surprise Spells, etc. I was mostly asking about it for levels prior to the AT capstone.
A ray is a weapon, acid splash is not.
What would acid splash be considered then? It has an associated attack roll in order to hit with it and the spell calls it a 'missile' of acid. Is that not considered a weapon (the FAQ seemed to focus on ray spells and a few examples of 'weapon-like' spells)? If acid splash is not, is Acid Arrow considered so, simply because it's an 'arrow of acid'?
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It was also [b]reclarified[\b]that neither Magic Missile or Fireball are valid spells for either sneak attack or this ability. What it actually does is treat the target as a valid target for sneak attack for your spell. It does not allow you to deal sneak attack with something that does not follow the rules for sneak attack (ie Fieball or Magic Missile).
You can not Sneak attack with Fieball because it is an area attack not a targeted one (like a weapon) and you can not sneak attack with Magic Missile because it does not require an attack roll to hit (so can not crit or use precision damage). Even with the talent.
It was also reclarified that neither Magic Missile or Fireball are valid spells for either sneak attack or this ability.
By "this ability" do you mean Surprise Spells? If so, do you have a link to the reclarification? The FAQ explicitly says otherwise.
You can not Sneak attack with Fieball because it is an area attack not a targeted one (like a weapon) and you can not sneak attack with Magic Missile because it does not require an attack roll to hit (so can not crit or use precision damage). Even with the talent.
Not knowing which talent you're talking about, you are correct that a normal rogue cannot sneak attack with a fireball or magic missile.
A 10th-level Arcane Trickster using his Surprise Spells class feature can add her sneak attack damage to a fireball or magic missile if her target is flat-footed.
What would acid splash be considered then?
It's a spell with an attack roll. It's not a weapon-like spell, so it doesn't benefit from Inspire Courage or Arcane Strike, but it's still an attack, so it breaks invisibility and can be used to sneak attack in certain situations.
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Yes, surprize spell. Sorry I am on my phone so screwed up the bold. I honestly cant remember where to look but I want to say it was JJ or JB saying that those two spells where incorrectly mentioned (for the reasons I said). What it actually does is allow the target to be treated as flat footed to allow sneak attack if they would not otherwise be. It does not change what spells can be used with sneak attack in any way.
A weaponlike spell is one that is (a ranged or touch attack) requires an attack roll to hit, deals damage (generally HP damage) and with which you can crit (most spells have a 20/x2 crit unless it says otherwise).
I want to say it was JJ or JB saying that those two spells where incorrectly mentioned (for the reasons I said). What it actually does is allow the target to be treated as flat footed to allow sneak attack if they would not otherwise be. It does not change what spells can be used with sneak attack in any way.
Since that doesn't make any sense at all and conflicts with the RAW as well as what JB and the FAQ say, I'm going to assume you're misremembering.
A weaponlike spell is one that is (a ranged or touch attack) requires an attack roll to hit, deals damage (generally HP damage) and with which you can crit (most spells have a 20/x2 crit unless it says otherwise).
Spells and Critical Hits: "A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit."
FAQ - Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
"Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)
For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
—Sean K Reynolds, 07/29/11"
Weapon-like spells are spells that function exactly as weapons. They allow you to have iterative attacks, etc. They are not the same as spells that require an attack roll.