Yep.
That's issue #2.
The first issue, of course, being that the wording in Vivisectionist's sneak attack is open enough to include PrC's, because they are "Classes that grant sneak attack"
Ergo, fullcircle, Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack needs to be rewritten ^_^
So, I'm going to go with the "Prestige Class is not Class, and vice-versa" route, and I'll cite Prerequesite Requirements as my reason why.
Regardless, this discussion brings up an interesting thought: How does a Viv/Rog SA stack with a Class that doesn't have full SA advancement (such as the Ranger archetype that offers 1d6 Sneak Attack damage every 4 levels instead of every 2)?
Before saying anything further, would you kindly point out which archetype that'd be?
I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out exactly what the problem was that Bane Wraith was trying to describe in his original post. The issue he describes is one of RAW vs. RAI. He makes that plain, but his reasoning doesn’t come across as well as it should.
Rules as Intended(?) It is understood that Bill, a Rogue 8, Master Spy 10, Vivisectionist 1, should have a total Sneak Attack Bonus of +10d6, the same as a Rogue 19. There seems to be plenty of agreement on that point, even from me. Sam, a Rogue 8, Assassin 10, Vivisectionist 1, should have the same +10d6.
The argument comes into play when one reads the Vivisectionist’s rules for Sneak Attack Damage Bonus specifically as it is written.
The PRD states:
Sneak Attack: At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack's extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on). This ability replaces bomb.
This rule very plainly states that the levels of vivisectionist stack with levels of rogue (or some other class) to determine the equivalent levels of rogue the character would have for Sneak Attack Bonus. It does not at any point state that the vivisectionist level grants +1d6 to the Sneak Attack bonus. It does in fact Declare the exact opposite through its illustration of the A) Rogue1, Alchemist 1 versus B) Rouge 1, Alchemist 2. One could assume from the wording that a Rogue 2, Alchemist 1 would have the same Sneak Attack bonus as Rogue 3 (+2d6). In short, the rule says that Vivisectionist levels are added to (Sneak Attack granting class) levels to determine rogue-equivalent levels for determining the characters Sneak Attack bonus.
The example is very specific about how the math works there.
Rogues and Vivisectionists both use the rogues +1d6 cumulative every odd level up to +10d6 @ 19th. The rule makes it so that each vivisectionist levels stacks with any class that grants Sneak Attack, not the Sneak Attack Bonuses form those classes stacking. The Alc 1, Rog 1 = 2 levels rogue-equivalent for +1d6 SA bonus, not Alc 1 (+1d6), Rog 1 (+1d6)= + 2d6 SA bonus.
The problem lies with Prestige Classes, or more appropriately, how the rule for the vivisectionist’s Sneak Attack does not lay down some more specific rules regarding how it interacts with Prestige Classes.
Arcane Trickster adds +1d6 to SA @ 2nd, +2d6 @ 4th, +3d6 @ 6th, +4d6 @ 8th, and +5d6 @10th.
Assassin adds +1d6 to SA @ 1st, +2d6 @ 3rd , +3d6 @ 5th, +4d6 @ 7th, and +5d6 @ 9th.
Aspis Agent, Bellflower Tiller, and Shackles Pirate all add +1d6 @ 3rd , +2d6 @ 6th , and +3d6 @ 9th.
Inner Sea Pirate, Master Spy, Red Mantis Assassin, and Sleepless Detective all add +1d6 @ 1st, +2d6 @ 4th, +3d6 @ 7th, and +4d6 @ 10th.
Gray Gardener adds +1d6 @ 1st, +2d6 @ 5th, and +3d6 @9th.
Lion Blade adds +1d6 @ 2nd, +2d6 @ 6th, and +3d6 @ 10th.
Daggermark Poisoner adds +1d6 @ 5th, and +2d6 @ 10th.
Low Templar adds +1d6 @ 3rd and +2d6 @ 8th.
Halfling Opportunist and Pain Taster add +1d6 @ 2nd and +2d6 @ 4th.
All of the Sneak Attack Bonuses from each of these Prestige Classes stack with any other source of Sneak Attack Bonus damage.
If the vivisectionist’s rule essentially creates a new base Sneak Attack Bonus, which it appears to do by adding all Sneak Attack granting class levels to the vivisectionist levels and then lumping them together as Rogue-equivalent to find the Sneak Attack Bonus on the Rogue’s table, then it does not factor in any of the Sneak Attack bonuses for any of those classes. So where do the bonuses go?
At low levels, especially the first five, the math works beautifully. There are no Prestige Classes to work around available at those levels. At least none that I personally am aware of.
Bill, a young and disturbed brilliant mind in the local thieves guild, begins as a Rogue, discovers a fascination with anatomy and the neat things one can do with it. (Rog 1, Alc 1= +1d6 Sneak Attack bonus)
Time passes and Bill’s duties to the guild teach him much of the thief’s art. (Rog 5, Alc 1= +3d6 SA bonus)
Bill develops a taste for murder and is picked up by the darker and more secretive branch of the thieves guild: the Assassin’s guild. (Rog 5, Alc 1, Assn 1= +4d6 SA bonus) 6 levels in Sneak Attack granting classes + 1 level Vivisectionist= 7 levels rogue for Sneak Attack bonus determination. So does +3d6 (Rog 5) + 1d6 (Assn 1) with the one level of vivosectionist not actually giving a +1d6 to anything, because that’s not what it does.
More time passes in the big bad city and Bill has learned more of not only the arts of the thief, but has also become a name unto itself as a ruthless and terrible slayer. (Rog 8, Alc 1, Assn 10= +??d6 SA bonus) This example brings up the math problem. The vivisectionist rule uses the number of levels granting Sneak Attack, so 8 + 10 + 1 = 19 for 10d6. If you take the actual Sneak Attack bonuses from those classes that grant one and add them together it goes as follows Rog 8 (+4d6) + Alc 1 (none) + Assn 10 (+5d6)= +9d6.
Why doesn’t this add up?
The vivisectionist rule adds one effective level of Rogue to the calculation (per level of Vivisectionist), thus making the effective Rogue contribution +5d6, not +4d6 in this case.
Let’s step back a level or two in Bill’s dark career and see what we have.
At Rog 6(+3d6), Alc 1, Assn 4(+2d6), Bill has that pesky invisible rogue level form the vivisectionist adding to his effective Rogue level , now (Rog 7- +4d6) + (Assn 4- +2d6) = +6d6, still just like a level 11 Rogue [(6+1) + 4]= 11. Not too complicated.
At the next level, Rog 6, Alc 1, Assn 5, Bill now has +4d6 form Rog/Alc levels and +3d6 from his Assn levels for a total of +7d6, right? Apparently not if you follow the vivisectionist’s rule that only adds the total number of class levels that grant Sneak Attack. Where does the bonus for leveling as an Assassin go?
Nowhere does it say that it is subsumed by the vivisectionist rule. If the bonus damages stack from any class that grants Sneak Attack as it says in each of the Prestige classes noted, what happens to those bonuses.
I think, logically following the path of reasoning, would allow a late comer to the vivisectionist’s art to have a massive increase to his Sneak Attack bonus damage. If Bill hadn’t discovered he like jacking with bodies so early, he may have been Rog 8, Assn 10 (thus having +9d6 SA bonus) before he got the first level of vivisectionist. Now since the vivisectionist adds all of the Sneak Attack granting class levels together to arrive at the rogue-equivalent level, in this case 19, and never mentions the bonuses form any class, Prestige or other wise, then those extra bonuses should get to add on after the level-equivalent calculation is made.
Thus, 19 rogue-equivalent levels for +10d6 + Assassin’s bonus of +5d6 = +15d6 Sneak Attack bonus damage.
Now take a quick look at Hassim, a wholly different killer. Hassim has taken the path of the Poisoner Rogue archetype and also been selected by the Assassin’s guild. (Poisoner 5, Assn 1, for +4d6 SA bonus) Later in his career he starts looking harder at what he does to the bodies he poisons. (Poisoner 6, Assn 3, Viv 1 for +6d6 SA bonus [(Rog6+Viv1= Rog7 for +4d6 + Assn 3 (+2d6) for a total of +6d6] or is it actually only Rogue-equivalent levels (from those that grant Sneak Attack bonuses)= 10, so SA bonus is +5d6 on Rogue’s table or is it (+5d6) from Rogue-equivalent levels + (+2d6) form the Assassin Prestige class for a total of +7d6?
The lack of language outlining precisely how the vivisectionist rule relates to the actual bonuses form the Sneak Attack granting classes, Prestige and otherwise, does leave room for the final determination for Hassim and Bill.
Don’t forget Kayla the Killer… Halfling Rogue 5, Halfling Opportunist 4, Assassin 9, Viv 1.… (+3d6, +2d6, +5d6) for +10d6 as a level 19 character, or is it rogue-equivalent levels 19 for the same measly +10d6, totally ignoring any of the extra training she went through or is it actually +10d6 (Eff-Rog) +2d6 +5d6 for a whopping total of +17d6? That certainly sounds more like the super deadly training she’s been putting herself through all these years is paying off.
Before saying anything further, would you kindly point out which archetype that'd be?
It's in an issue of Kobold Quarterly I believe (kind of a predecessor of the Skirmisher archetype.)
I know it's a spell-less Ranger, but I'm not positive it was 1d6/4 levels (it might be slower than that). My current group's Ranger is using it, so I know it exists!Regardless, it doesn't have to be a Ranger archetype. It can be anything that adds a Sneak Attack option at a slower than level/2 option. How does that stack with Viv, which has it's specific rules about how class stacking works for it's SA?
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@Loja
A nice post, describing what I've been trying to, through story and elaborate form.
I must make a few small statements in addition, if you don't mind.
Firstly, nothing in the vvisectionist's sneak attack states that it removes the Sneak Attack bonus damage from other classes, be them prestige or not. It simply Counts those classes, in order to determine the effective rogue level as described in its entry
Therefore, it's important to note that because the Sneak Attack from the Prestige classes Stack with those from all other sources, they're being granted in Addition. Prestige classes with the sneak attack class feature both count towards the Vivisectionist's prescribed Effective Rogue Level, As well as add their own sneak attack damage. This would technically lead to a Rogue 9 / Viv 1 / Assassin 10 having 15d6, not 10d6.
I didn't want to say the following, because it's most definitely *Not* within the Rules as Intended...
But even though the Vivisectionist Sneak Attack class feature shows multiple examples of it stacking with rogue levels to determine one combined effective rogue level... Nowhere in the text does it actually say that that effective rogue level Replaces the damage granted from levels in rogue. The examples are clear. The rules, not so much.
Again. The above is definitely *Not* Rules as Intended, just something else I find to be a little confusingly worded. I also didn't want to say much because the Rogue's Sneak Attack doesn't say in itself that it stacks with the Sneak Attack damage granted by other sources. The Prestige classes do, instead, to make sure they cleanly stack. Because the rogue's doesn't, the math probably all works out in the end anyways.
Truly, I'm beginning to feel the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack class feature needs to be scrapped and rewritten entirely, to properly reflect the rules as intended.
It's in an issue of Kobold Quarterly I believe (kind of a predecessor of the Skirmisher archetype.)
I know it's a spell-less Ranger, but I'm not positive it was 1d6/4 levels (it might be slower than that). My current group's Ranger is using it, so I know it exists!Regardless, it doesn't have to be a Ranger archetype. It can be anything that adds a Sneak Attack option at a slower than level/2 option. How does that stack with Viv, which has it's specific rules about how class stacking works for it's SA?
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure, because I don't recall any other non-prestige class granting sneak attack at this time... Except Ninja, but that's an Alternate class of rogue.
I would say that, if they grant sneak attack, they'll be counted towards the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack class feature's calculation for an "Effective Rogue Level", and therefore use the rogue's typical +1d6 per 2 levels...
However, since they're probably not worded like the Prestige Classes, which say they stack with the SA of other sources, there wouldn't be the issue of it being granted a second time on top of that.
Examining some more Prestige classes and the way they work with the vivisectionist rules is also very fun.
Take Mercutio, a ruthless cut-throat out on the seas. Well into his career he has managed to become Rogue 5, Vivisectionist 1, and Inner Seas Pirate 4.
Method A: using only the Sneak Attack Bonuses from the classes: 3d6 + (no change with the vivsectionist) + 2d6= +5d6 Sneak Attack bonus damage, same as a 9th or 10th level rogue (which coincidentally equals Method B).
Method B: Each of these classes grants Sneak Attack so they all each level stacks together for a rogue-equivalent of 10, granting +5d6 just as the vivisectionist rules only would indicate. But where does the actual bonus damage coming from the Prestige class go off to? It is not addressed by the rule, only the number of levels from a Sneak Attack granting class.
If Mercutio gains another level of Inner Sea Pirate (now he’s Rog 5, Viv 1, ISP 5) the math goes haywire. All these levels are from classes that grant Sneak Attack so the number of levels stacks to determine the equivalent rogue level… 5+ 1 + 5= 11. So now Mercutio has the Sneak Attack Bonus of an 11th level rogue, which is +6d6. Wait… he got no extra bonuses from anywhere, only a rogue-equivalent level due to the vivisectionists Sneak Attack rule. So how is this justified?
Method C: for those hard core killers… Take Mercutio back to (Rog 5, Viv 1, ISP 4). He has 10 levels in Sneak Attack granting classes, so his base Sneak Attack is going to be that of a 10th level Rogue : +5d6. His Prestige Class adds +2d6 to the actual bonus damage during a Sneak Attack, so he has +7d6 Sneak Attack bonus damage, the same as a 13th level rogue.
Even later in his career, Mercutio (Rog5, Viv1, ISP10) would have +7d6 using Method A, +8 d6 using Method B, and a beautiful +12d6 using Method C.
Method C does add power to the Sneak Attack very quickly, doesn’t it? Since the current written rules for the vivisectionist does not call out any sort of method for dealing with the actual damage bonuses from Sneak Attack classes, Prestige or otherwise, that all of these may be viewed as viable methods.
Method A leaves a Rog8, Master Spy10, Viv1 with only +9d6 Sneak Attack bonus damage even if you add the one Viv level as an effective rogue level instead of simply counting all the levels as effective rogue levels.
Is it the intent of the designers to not count the levels of a class that don’t actually give the increase in Sneak Attack bonus damage? I’d have to say the example given by the rules would not indicate that. It would also be rather silly as, in this case poor Mercutio would now have now have only 6 levels (3 from Rogue, one from Viv, and 2 from Inner Sea Pirate) that would count to his rogue-equivalent levels… giving him a lousy +3d6 to Sneak Attack bonus damage. Utterly not worth considering.
Method B gives mystery bonuses with some combinations and actually takes away what should be there in others. Case in point: (Rog 6, Alc 1, Assn 5), which under Method B gives Sneak Attack bonus of +6d6, instead of +7d6 you’d get from the actual Rog 6+ Viv1(+4d6) + Assn5 (+3d6). So where does the bonus from the new Assassin level fall away to and why?
Method C can create havoc pretty quickly, but there is no reason why someone who has spent the time training to be a better back-stabber shouldn’t have a better bonus to the damage than the ‘standard’ rogue who gets the bonus as a caveat of sorts with the whole package.
Personally, I think Method A is quite sound., though it does not follow the vivisectionist’s rule as written.
Method B is extremely limiting and really takes away from the desire to branch out into the Sneak Attack Prestige classes and potentially multi-classing into any other Sneak Attack granting class.
Method C is a logical mathematical reward for those who play the roles properly. I see nothing wrong with it and will probably actually use it in my own campaigns, even if the game-makers rule otherwise.
Which is apparently what Bane Wraith is saying, except the part about not using it because it appears to be way outside the RAI.
I personally wonder if it is RAI or actually is working as intended. If my Method C, the method Bane Wraith seems to agree the rules are pointing to is how it is supposed to work, the hooray, we now have good reason for people to multi-class and follow Prestige classes for actual benefit.
To give one more odd example:
Vonnegut (Ftr 3, Rog 2, Viv 1, Low Templar 10) would have a very disappointing +4d6 to his SA if you only added up the Bonus from the classes that deal Sneak Attack (method A), or he would have +7d6 when you add up only the levels of classes that give Sneak Attack bonuses and consult the Rogue’s chart (Method B, apparent RAI), or he has +9d6 using Method C which adds the levels, for effective Rogue level to determine Base Sneak Attack bonus and then adds the Templar’s +2d6 bonus damage on Sneak Attacks thus giving a level 16 character the equivalent Sneak Attack bonus of a level 17 Rogue. Interesting, but not actually broken, considering all the Rogue skills and talents that this particular character would miss out on.
Now, Vonnegut is a real twisted mister and finishes his career with 4 levels of Pain Taster, which at first glance doesn’t seem to have Sneak Attack, but oh, yes it does. The text for Cruelty specifically states it is the Sneak Attack ability.
D20PFSRD quotes Pathfinder 15: The Armageddon Echo. Copyright 2009, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: Jason Bulmahn
Cruelty (Ex)
At 2nd level, a pain taster gains the sneak attack ability, but only when using slashing weapons. This additional damage stacks with any sneak attack damage he may possess from other classes.
A pain taster is particularly adept at delivering cruelty damage with a whip. As long as he chooses to inflict lethal damage with his whip, he inflicts cruelty damage on every strike. If he has sneak attack as well, the additional sneak attack damage only applies if the conditions for a successful sneak attack are met as well. When attacking with a whip using cruelty, the pain taster ignores the restriction on damaging creatures with high armor or natural armor bonuses.
At 4th level, the pain taster inflicts +2d6 points of damage whenever he strikes with cruelty.
So now V is Ftr 3, Rog 2, Viv 1, Low Templar 10, Pain Taster 4... (how utterly sordid that story must be, I have to write it one of these days.)
Method A: +6d6... As a 20th level character… bleh.
Method B: +8d6. Not too bad, but not really showing all that hard-won training is he since he’s now 20th Level with only a 15-16th level Sneak Attack ability.
Method C: +12d6.. Now that is worth getting cut the heck up for. Slightly better than the Rogue, but far less of the rogue’s skills and Talents again.
Remember that the rogue is a skill based class that uses Sneak Attack to strike Smarter, not Harder. Fighters and Barbarians can do all that. Beat down stuff. It makes sense that prestige classes, representing highly specialized training can surpass a base class in some specific ability, but it certainly pays for it by losing a great deal of all the other base class’s abilities.
I really don’t think +15d6 for the Rog8, Assn10, Viv1 is all that far out of line for Rules as Intended. I just agree that the rule-writers need to make certain that thre is a clear salient point that defines how to utilize the vivsectionist's ability and Prestige classes bonuses together to determine the final bonuses to a character's Sneak Attack.
I also could not find anything from Paizo as far as a non-Prestige class that offers Sneak Attack as an ability other than Ninja, which as an alternate class, would have to have one hell of a story to justify multiclassing from rogue (think "Shogun" or "The Last Samurai", with a thief going through the serious culture shock instead of a merchant marine or a U.S. Calvarymen circa mid-to-late 1800's.)
Wow, I started this journey more than 8 hours ago...
I love these brain crushing exercises.
I now have at least 5 new NPC's to work on to torture... um, pit against my players.
I also have several short stories and perhaps one novella or full blown novel to write.
I do so enjoy this game. For now I must retire, for I have only 4-1/2 houras before I am supposed to be awake to see the boy off to school.
Good Night all.
Happy gaming.
Consider the following arrangement:
4 Rogue + 1 Vivisectionist = +3d6
9 Assassin = +5d6
1 Red Mantis Assassin = +1d6
1 Sleepless Detective = +1d6
1 Inner Sea Pirate = +1d6
1 Master Spy = +1d6
2 Halfling Opportunity = +1d6
This is a horrible, horrible character. However, it is a legal build (as far as I can tell), and it achieves:
+13d6 , if the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack class feature is limited to stacking only with Rogue. (THIS is what I assume to be RAI)
+10d6 , if the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack class feature also includes Prestige Classes, and those prestige classes do not grant SA damage in addition.
+20d6 , if the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack class feature also includes Prestige Classes, and those prestige classes grant SA damage that stacks with all other sources. (Interpreted RAW)
I don't think that taking a single level in a base class archetype should be granting up to a mind boggling +8d6, thanks to "Method C" in your post. (taking all the above except Vivisectionist = 12d6)
I think many of us would smack a player over the head for proposing such, rather than congratulate them on taking advantage of ambiguous writing in the rules.
Therefore *At Best*, the ability can be interpreted to include PrC and Replace the SA damage dice from those class levels with the rogues +1d6 per 2 level progression rate. The maximum benefit from Method B would be shown below:
Consider this build:
4 Rogue + 1 Vivisectionist = +3d6
10 Low Templar = +2d6
5 Lion Blade = +1d6
A Unique build. It achieves:
+6d6 , if the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack class feature is limited to stacking only with Rogue. (Assumed RAI)
+10d6 , if the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack class feature also includes Prestige Classes, and those prestige classes do not grant SA damage in addition.
+13d6 , if the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack class feature also includes Prestige Classes, and those prestige classes grant SA damage that stacks with all other sources. (Interpreted RAW)
Virtually the same story. Method C more than doubles the number of sneak attack dice. The point was simply to show that the second option can be both both detrimental and beneficial.
The first method, the assumed RAI, is how it seems the Vivisectionist's Sneak Attack class feature should be used. Although the ambiguous wording currently does not properly limit the ability to Non-prestige classes, it obviously shows the most consistency and "fairness".
Looking at it any other way can make huge differences that depend not on levels in vivisectionist, but how the character selects prestige classes, and probably should not be a possible outcome. However, the wording does not restrict it from happening.
I agree with you on what I'm calling Method C leading to some stunningly huge bonuses.
I also agree that there needs to be a serious look by the Guru Group to figure out if this should be a legitimate usage of the rules.
I also believe that if there is a player building a 19 or 20 level character, there had better be a huge amount of DM involvment, because that DM most certainly has some kind of plan that can go awary quite quickly.
If a character evolves to this point, the DM would have to adjudicate how the vivsectionist Sneak Attack rule works for his campaign, at least until there is some definite decison from the developers.
I personally think that if the campaign has been developing along the lines that several of the absolutely vile characters we have used as examples would definitely be unique and superbly rich in story and detail.
Having the vivsectionist SA rule stack only with Rogue levels is rather an impediment in some circumstances.
Jarond, who starts as a Fighter, becomes an Assassin, and then moves on to become Duke Evilsmile's torturer as a Vivisectionist. (Ftr5, Assn9, Viv1) Does this mean that he now has only the one level of Vivisectionist to determine his base SA and then adds those form the Assassin? (for a total of +6d6)
Mathematically, its the same as using the 10 levels of Assassin + the 1 level of Vivisection = 11 levels of Rogue which has +6d6 for SA Bonus damage.
The issue seems to be when there actually is Rogue levels and Vivisectionist levels along with the Prestige class that adds to Sneak Attack bonuses.
Hence my agreement that clarification from developers would be excellent.
I just can't see any good mechanical reason to disallow what would be Method C. Story reasons are perfectly acceptable.
Bane Wraith's example:
4 Rogue + 1 Vivisectionist = +3d6
9 Assassin = +5d6
1 Red Mantis Assassin = +1d6
1 Sleepless Detective = +1d6
1 Inner Sea Pirate = +1d6
1 Master Spy = +1d6
2 Halfling Opportunity = +1d6
... is mechanically viable, but would definitely have one very difficult story to get through, considering all the various requisites for each of the Prestige classes. A DM would be insane to write it and a player would definitely be a powergaming geek-gakker. In such an unreal campaign, I would expect to see an such unreal character. A character who manages to get access to that number of prestige classes has a push-over for a Pathmaster or there is a heck of a high-powered game going on.
Basically, I ask the developers: "How is this really supposed to be used?", just as the title of the board asks.
If Bane Wraith and I have hit on the actual method intended (method C), then that's cool with me too.
I don't see where the mechanics should limit the rule from that extent, but I do agree that there certainly should be story limits expressed by the Pathmaster during the campaign.
As useful as story is to demonstrate the mechanics of the game in work, I'm only interested in the rules at this moment. The examples given were for no other purpose than to demonstrate the possible extreme contrasts.
Power-gaming wise, I'm not even sure it'd be a problem; At the most one would throw on Sap Adept and Sap Master, and in the end build a level 20 character that can deal +40d6+40 (average +160)damage under the right circumstances... But, explore the forums a little and there are certainly better characters than that.
The Sandman Bard's sneak attack... is interesting. Since it's a Class that Grants Sneak Attack, it'd count towards the vivisectionist's Effective Rogue Level... but it never states that it'd stack with other sources so the math would be just fine; The rules would work as intended for that class.
What I find strange is that the Sandman's Sneak attack never states that it's Precision damage. It never states that it's actually like the Rogue's. It's just untyped damage. Maybe, then it *WOULD* stack, and then it'd have the same problem as the Vivisectionist does with Prestige Classes.
ANYWAYS.
Back to the Vivisectionist.
So, should we start flagging the original post for FAQ?
edit: wouldn't it be ironic if the sandman's sneak attack is the only type that no creature is immune to, since it's not Precision Damage?
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Before saying anything further, would you kindly point out which archetype that'd be?It's in an issue of Kobold Quarterly I believe (kind of a predecessor of the Skirmisher archetype.)
I know it's a spell-less Ranger, but I'm not positive it was 1d6/4 levels (it might be slower than that). My current group's Ranger is using it, so I know it exists!
Just jumping in here ... :)
The Spell-less Ranger does indeed exist! The class originally appeared back in issue 11 of Kobold Quarterly. It has more recently been expanded and updated - you can check the class out if you like :)