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I just hit 3rd level, and (as is often the case for me) I'm suffering from severe indecision regarding what feat to take.
To see my current build (complete up to 3rd level, sans the feat in question), click my name. Additionally, I plan to bump CON at 4th, and around that time get a +2 WIS headband, and then bump WIS at 8th. I also have spent (and will continue to spend) all my FCBs on the alternate for tiefling clerics in the ARG (+1 per FCB versus SR of outsiders).
Current contenders for a feat are as follows:
• Toughness
• Combat Casting
• Improved Initiative
• Weapon Focus (longsword)
• Fiend Sight (but only if I take it twice)
• Extra Channel
So, what's good right now? What can wait? What's a trap option? Did I miss anything?
Please note that this is a PFS character, so keep PFS's level range and source legality in mind when making suggestions. Thanks!
I like Power Attack, though that would mean no shield use.
It depends on how fast your group progresses and how many levels you will play. In my experience after level 6 it is very hard to be/stay a decent melee cleric. But a lot depends on the GM. If you stay in low levels long enough all your suggestions make sense (I don't know fiend sight, so no opinion on that one).
Extra Channel is not a trap in my experience. It is at least valid till level 12 or even later. Again, it is a question of play style.
I'd rather say Bear's Endurance is a trap. (Where are my hitpoints, dude?)
Improved Initiative is considered one of the best feats all over the boards by optimizers. If a combat lasts about three rounds, you will act three times, your opponent only two times. That's a big benefit.
It's also a question of your preference. If you like fighting, go for Wpn Focus. I would do it (although it might not be the best option)
The only way to make a decent fighting cleric imho at the time is to have a passable strength but at the same time shoot wisdom through the roof and take the feats channel smite and guided hand early on. This will get you a good atack roll, high save DCs, extra spells and keep your cleric relevant all the time. I know that is not a possibility in your case, I just wanted to mention it.
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@BBT: I guess you could say I'm something of a generalist. In these early levels, I can contribute to combat simply by virtue of my AC and attacking with 16 STR. As I level, I'll of course be doing more and more spellcasting. There will be some buffing involved (both self and group), but also with a focus on "problem-solving" spells like silence to shut down a caster, protection from evil to deal with mind control, invisibility purge to do the obvious, my 8th level Sun domain power to hose spammers of deeper darkness, etc.
Does that answer your question? And if so, do you have a snazzy and generally-accepted title for that role that I can use from now on? :P
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It depends on how fast your group progresses and how many levels you will play. In my experience after level 6 it is very hard to be/stay a decent melee cleric. But a lot depends on the GM. If you stay in low levels long enough all your suggestions make sense (I don't know fiend sight, so no opinion on that one).
Extra Channel is not a trap in my experience. It is at least valid till level 12 or even later. Again, it is a question of play style.
Like I said in the OP, this is a PFS character. Thus, the following is true:
• Scenarios are pre-written
• Gain a level every 3 sessions
• Never know what my party will be for the day
• Scenarios don't go past 12th level
Yes I read your OP. I am sorry, I did not know the regularities of PFS. There is no such thing in Germany. Nevertheless, my post stays valid.
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Okay.
Get your self a Consecrated Weapon, and a shield.
This will allow you to sword and board, while still being able to cast spells.
Combat Casting is a choice feat. Channel Smite is a trap feat, as you can do the same with the Consecrated weapon.
By the way, a Consecrated weapon is type of Channel Foci, you can find it here.
From the armor class, I'm assuming you're using a heavy shield ("+ 2shield"). How are you casting spells with somatic components or touch attack spells such as Cure Light Wounds or other support spells if you're holding a sword?
Do you just drop/sheathe the sword and pick it back up/draw it out afterwards? Maybe Quick Draw would be useful.
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From the armor class, I'm assuming you're using a heavy shield ("+ 2shield"). How are you casting spells with somatic components or touch attack spells such as Cure Light Wounds or other support spells if you're holding a sword?
Do you just drop/sheathe the sword and pick it back up/draw it out afterwards?
Actually, it's a +1 buckler.
EDIT: If you'd like more of a breakdown, I have a +1 buckler and a +1 chain shirt. I was fortunate enough to survive playing up twice with this character, so I have a slight head start on wealth (it'll be irrelevant in a few levels, but for now it sure is nice).
Actually we don't play with the rule that you can not cast while wearing a shield. It is assumed that you loosen your grip on the shield (while it is still attached with a leather cord to your shield arm) and take your weapon in your shield hand, both as free actions. You are then free to cast and after this ready sword and board as a free action.
Hmm.. written down that looks like a lot of free actions in one turn...
Sorry, for derailing the thread.
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What do you need the hand for?
Your Consecrated Longsword counts as a Holy Symbol.
Later, you can nab the Grasping Tail feat to cut down on action economy, and hold your shield/sword when you need a free hand.
So... You're picturing this?
Swift action: grab sword with tail, freeing up a hand.
Standard action: cast spell.
Move action: grab sword back into my hand.
So you want me to spend a feat and some extra actions just so I can get +1 AC? No.
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Well, the Grasping Tail feat is good nontheless.
BTW, I may have forgotten to record that I already have the Prehensile Tail alternate racial trait...
Also, you don't need a move action to grab the sword from your tail.
The "switching grips" action is a free action.
I agree when it's just your hands, but... It would explicitly be a swift action to move the sword from my hand to my tail, so why would moving it from my tail to my hand take less effort?
Ah a buckler. Excellent. Pardon my hasty assumption.
Hmm, since you intend to be more casty in the future, but not now, I'd say Improved Initiative from your current list. At level 3 you can continue to buff before your party engages monsters in melee or help avoid being flat-footed by simply acting lot earlier than most.
Level 5, Combat Casting, since you get some decent level 3 spells by then.
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Given that many GMs won't even accept hand-switching as a free action (after all, it's not actually in the rules anywhere), trying to assert that moving an item back and forth between hands and tail is also a free action is stretching to the point that half the time I'm going to find myself unable to cast.
If I want to spend a feat on Grasping Tail, I could drop my sword as a free action, cast, and then pick it up again as a swift action. But at that point, I may as well have kept my buckler and taken Dodge, and I'd have the advantage of the +1 AC applying to Touch and CMD.
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Combat Casting is strong option.
Here's the thing: I have a trait giving me a +2 to all Concentration checks. Does that mean I want Combat Casting so I can be uber-reliable? Or does it mean I can afford to spend the feat elsewhere instead? On that point I'm torn.
Heavy Armor Proficiency is another very good option.
Gives you much more than the +1 AC.
Haha, true. However, for this particular character I want to have my full movement. Also, let's assume for this thread that I'm not interested in spending any feats on getting higher AC.
Power Attack.
Now is the time that you qualify for it. Might as well ditch the shield altogether. Focus on being a secondary meleer if you're not going the full beatdown package. Sadly the sun domain is a touch useless to you since you have no charisma bonus (yet).
I'd myself would switch to a long spear since you want to take advantage of the reach. If too many foes or if closequarters makes that hard I'd still have the longsword as back up.
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Power Attack.
Now is the time that you qualify for it. Might as well ditch the shield altogether. Focus on being a secondary meleer if you're not going the full beatdown package.
No thanks; I don't like PA with 3/4 BAB. I'd like to hit once in a while.
Sadly the sun domain is a touch useless to you since you have no charisma bonus (yet).
Unless of course you also have the Glory domain, which boosts the save DC by 2. Between that the fact that undead don't get their Channel Resistance on their saves against me, I'm channeling like I've got 14-20 CHA while adding my level to damage.
And besides that, the light ability at 8th for the Sun domain also hoses dark stalkers and whatnot, which is fantastic all by itself. Daylight as Su (not dispellable) that auto-dispels all darkness in the radius? Yes please.
Scribe scroll. It's an amazing feat that lets you have a stack of paper with every situational spell you need so you can use your daily spells to buff your offense and defense capabilities. Plus, very cheap (12.5 gp to craft a cure light wounds scroll). You'll never come up against "Well, I can cast Remove Disease, but I don't have it memorized".
This thread doesn't feel like it's been very helpful. Half the answers to "what feat should I take?" have been gear or playstyles instead of feats.
Most of the play-styles/gear options have had feats suggested with them as well. Since we don't know exactly how you plan on playing your char, you're bound to get some play-style suggestions to go with feat choices. You seem to be (unless I'm just imagining it) rudely dismissive of peoples suggestions. I'll just assume it's not your intention or that I'm imagining it.
For my suggestions. Based on the list of feats you provided, and your concern over the 3/4 BAB class, I'd probably go Weapon Focus. I would normally go Combat Casting out of that list, but as you said, you already get a bonus to that.
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Based on the list of feats you provided, and your concern over the 3/4 BAB class, I'd probably go Weapon Focus. I would normally go Combat Casting out of that list, but as you said, you already get a bonus to that.
I was originally thinking maybe I'd take Weapon Focus at 5th (when I lose my second point of BAB) and take something else now (at 3rd). You'd recommend Combat Casting, eh? Maybe Combat Casting now, Weapon Focus at 5th, Toughness at 7th? Or should I skip Toughness altogether? Hm...
Based on the list of feats you provided, and your concern over the 3/4 BAB class, I'd probably go Weapon Focus. I would normally go Combat Casting out of that list, but as you said, you already get a bonus to that.I was originally thinking maybe I'd take Weapon Focus at 5th (when I lose my second point of BAB) and take something else now (at 3rd). You'd recommend Combat Casting, eh? Maybe Combat Casting now, Weapon Focus at 5th, Toughness at 7th? Or should I skip Toughness altogether? Hm...
I would probably skip out on Toughness. You have a higher AC and some decent Con and can heal yourself if need be. Casting Bears Endurance or a stat boost item would be more beneficial than using a feat. Plus, the bonus from Divine Power adds some extra Hitpoints as well as some extra melee buffage. DP is a level 4 spell though so it will be a while.
Combat Casting isn't vital if you take steps to avoid melee while casting. Since your topic says "Support / Melee" cleric, I'm assuming your playstyle will be that of buffing up before battle then spending most of your time in melee, and using healing/support only if necessary. If that is the case, I would just drop combat casting all-together as you already have that +2, and can back off and cast spells if you absolutely have to.
In short, I would focus on ways to increase your melee ability above all else.
One of our groupmates in our last campaign played very similar to this style.. He was Melee first and foremost, and backed off to heal if he absolutely had to, and didn't bother with selective channel. He used shield bash, but I'm unsure how effective it would be with a buckler build.
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Speaking from the perspective of a 10th level PFS dwarf tank cleric:
Heavy Armor Proficiency (HAP) to keep your AC up so you can stay in melee.
Combat Casting so you can cast (either heals or self-buff) in melee. You can't always back off in melee, and if the party is relying on you to hold the line it may not be a viable option to do so without compromising the tactical position.
Toughness so you have enough HP to survive a hit in melee, especially if you skip HAP.
Dodge bumps your AC by one more point, but is not better than HAP.
Shield Focus gives you another AC, again not as good as HAP.
Lightning Reflexes - your reflex save is "ok" for now, but it will get much worse at higher levels. This is probably a better level 5 or 7 choice.
Other thoughts:
Improved Initiative is great for casters to hit the bad guys before they get mixed up in melee, or for rogues to get in that flat-footed sneak attack. Not so useful for clerics or melee types. In fact, many times it works out better to let the bad guys come to you.
Weapon Focus is a poor choice for a feat-starved cleric as it's *only* a 5% bump.
Extra Channel - I have 5/day and have frequently wished I had more. Since you don't qualify for Selective Channel, however, you're pretty limited to out-of-combat channels except for trying to nuke undead.
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Speaking from the perspective of a 10th level PFS dwarf tank cleric:
Heavy Armor Proficiency (HAP) to keep your AC up so you can stay in melee.
I didn't take Travel domain and am not a dwarf, so I want to stay in light armor (will eventually switch to a mithral breastplate) for mobility's sake - I want to be able to breath of life someone 30ft away (especially since my tail puts me in a unique position to do so with a scroll).
Combat Casting so you can cast (either heals or self-buff) in melee. You can't always back off in melee, and if the party is relying on you to hold the line it may not be a viable option to do so without compromising the tactical position.
I hadn't thought of the possibility of being able to 5ft back but not wanting to for tactical reasons. Thanks for the extra perspective.
Toughness so you have enough HP to survive a hit in melee, especially if you skip HAP.
Kinda what I was thinking, especially since I'm not putting FCBs into HP.
Dodge bumps your AC by one more point, but is not better than HAP.
Shield Focus gives you another AC, again not as good as HAP.
Yeah, no more feats into AC for me.
Lightning Reflexes - your reflex save is "ok" for now, but it will get much worse at higher levels. This is probably a better level 5 or 7 choice.
Darksire Amulet makes me think I'm not too worried about reflex saves.
Other thoughts:
Improved Initiative is great for casters to hit the bad guys before they get mixed up in melee, or for rogues to get in that flat-footed sneak attack. Not so useful for clerics or melee types. In fact, many times it works out better to let the bad guys come to you.
Have to say I agree.
Weapon Focus is a poor choice for a feat-starved cleric as it's *only* a 5% bump.
Hm, interesting thought... I'll have to reflect on that one a bit...
Extra Channel - I have 5/day and have frequently wished I had more. Since you don't qualify for Selective Channel, however, you're pretty limited to out-of-combat channels except for trying to nuke undead.
Yeah, I'm a fan of after-combat group-hugs. ;) Also, I'm reasonably well-suited to nuking undead - my DC is as though I had 14 CHA, they don't get channel resistance on their saves, and I add my level to damage. :D
...Wouldn't Toughness be good for focusing on melee as you suggest?
In Melee, there are two schools of though:
1) Increase your surviveablity. Toughness and Bonuses to AC Such as HAP like Thorkull suggested are great ways to increase your surviveability
2) Increase your DPR. Weapon Focus/specialization, as well as increased crit ranges and power attack will provide you with better damage output putting the enemy down faster.
The great thing about a Cleric, is they have spells that can supplement either style, so it's really just a matter of preference.
I saw that you had ruled out power attack. But, If it were my char, Since I tend to favor DPR over surviveablity, I would focus on two handed weapons with power attack and furious focus.
I also saw you were rejecting any AC increase options. But, if I were to focus on surviveability, I would go with HAP as Thorkull suggests.
If you don't focus on either surviveablity or DPR, you may find you aren't very good at either.
Combat Casting. Spell-casting is versatile, and you never know what you'll need to crack out in the middle of a combat, or if someone will be attacking you while it happens.
I agree that Combat Casting is useful at times, but I just think that for his char with the bonus +2 already that he could use the feat on something else.
By level 8 he said his wisdom will be an 18 with stat bump and headband. So, His concentration check is 8+2+4 = 14 without Combat casting, meaning he fails a level 1 spells on a 1 only and his level 4 spells fail on an 8 or lower.. Sure he could add Combat Casting and only fail on a 4 or lower, but I just think there are better options out there for him.
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Warrior Priest (either Ult Combat or APG) adds to both Concentration Checks and Init.
I want to say that Council of Thieves #2 had a nice Iomedae feat that let you do something cool with Longsword and also treat it as a Divine Focus.
Heavy Armor, Toughness, Imp Init (and Crit later) are good options.
Quicken(Divine Favor, Bless) and Extend Spell (Greater Magic Weapon Magic Vestment x2, Prot from Evil, Blessings of Fervor, and a few other spells) are great too. Again, down the line.
Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Greater Sunder can be amazing too.
Spring Attack Chain.
I should also point out, if its not to late either the Crusader or and another Cleric Archtype I can not think of the name for are good ais for a martial Cleric. One is from Inner Sea Magic and one is from Ult Combat.
Improved Initiative... well... I always thought as a min/maxer that this is a waste of feat for mostly every character.
Depends on the group: if the DM and other players are also min-maxers, the game quickly becomes akin to rocket lancher tag. In that scenario, whoever goes first almost always wins. High Dex and Improved Intitiative are more or less required in order to stay competitive. (Needless to say, in such a group the Diviner's forewarned ability gets swapped out for something less drastic.)